Winter here and how long do you let the new lens warm up in the shipping box?

[Tin Can]

Lately, when I get a new lens, like just now, I let the shipping box warm up for several hours before opening it, to prevent condensation.

Takes great restraint, as I now wait.

Today, the item is an enlarging lens, but all my children need a good chance at life.

I think I will hide the box...

[Jody_S]

Not just when I get a 'new' lens, but also when I bring my gear in from inside: the larger the lens, the longer I give it to acclimate. I leave my Fujinon-W 300/5.6 for several hours wrapped and inside the camera bag to slowly come up to room temp. Back when I was using a Canon FD 800L/5.6 on tiny format, I would just leave it outside in the car until the weather warmed enough that I wasn't as worried.

I don't know which is more dangerous to modern lenses; heat or cold. But leaving lenses in a car in the summer here in Canada isn't nearly as dangerous as in the American south.

[Tin Can]

Yes, I always let those delicate miniatures warm up slowly, keep them close like a baby under a coat.

Mold is what I fear from the south, seems wet and warm is much worse than cold and dry.

I do think you get all types of weather in Montreal, which I have visited a time or 3.

When in Montreal I don't speak and pretend I understand French. Works best at French theater. Not so good at restaurants...


Not just when I get a 'new' lens, but also when I bring my gear in from inside: the larger the lens, the longer I give it to acclimate. I leave my Fujinon-W 300/5.6 for several hours wrapped and inside the camera bag to slowly come up to room temp. Back when I was using a Canon FD 800L/5.6 on tiny format, I would just leave it outside in the car until the weather warmed enough that I wasn't as worried.

I don't know which is more dangerous to modern lenses; heat or cold. But leaving lenses in a car in the summer here in Canada isn't nearly as dangerous as in the American south.

[8x10 user]

Have you heard of the cold negatively effecting the aperture of old barrel lenses? I shipped one last month only to find out from the recipient that aperture fell apart. It is unclear to me if the damage was done during shipping or perhaps the lens was too cold and the recipient tried to force a frozen aperture open? He did say that the lens arrived 10 minutes ago which gave no time to warm up the lens. The recipient lives in the northeastern US and it was during a cold snap.

[Corran]

I've never had fungus grow in a lens down here in the hot and humid south. I've only received them that way, usually to my surprise!

You guys are in a different world wrt cold - but even here lately it's been down to the 20's. I don't wait to open packages though. I've many times stepped out from my cool car to a humid day and my glasses and lenses will fog up, but it goes away in a few minutes. Unless I was trying to shoot fast I don't even pay attention to it.

[jp]

Have you heard of the cold negatively effecting the aperture of old barrel lenses? I shipped one last month only to find out from the recipient that aperture fell apart. It is unclear to me if the damage was done during shipping or perhaps the lens was too cold and the recipient tried to force a frozen aperture open? He did say that the lens arrived 10 minutes ago which gave no time to warm up the lens. The recipient lives in the northeastern US and it was during a cold snap.

Speaking from the north east here. Lenses in need of a CLA have gummed up irises. In the summer they might be a little dampened or stiff. In the winter they are stuck solid. Forcing it could fail it. I have a verito (needing a CLA) I set for f 4.5 in the summer. It won't move now and I won't try to adjust it till either a 90f summer day or till it's had a CLA.

If humidity is low (such as a place heated with woodstove or hot air) condensation isn't much of a problem.

[8x10 user]

So you would agree that 10 minutes is not enough time to let a large barrel lens (such as a vertito ~6lbs) to warm up in the middle of winter before adjusting the aperture... In-fact, maybe a few hours (4+?) at minimum would be required?

And damage to stuck moving parts while cold is another issue in addition to condensation is another reason it is best to warm up lenses before opening.

[Tin Can]

I agree and I now wait 6 to 8 hours with any camera or lens, digital or film. The stuff on delivery trucks in Chicago is frozen solid. I also wait for film and paper to warm up slowly.



So you would agree that 10 minutes is not enough time to let a large barrel lens (such as a vertito ~6lbs) to warm up in the middle of winter before adjusting the aperture... In-fact, maybe a few hours (4+?) at minimum would be required?

And damage to stuck moving parts while cold is another issue in addition to condensation is another reason it is best to warm up lenses before opening.

[jp]

If it were sold as needing a CLA or as-is, and it arrived stiff and cold, I'd let it warm up for a couple hours before playing with it. If it were advertised as functioning properly or having had a recent CLA, it should function at most temperatures without risk.

[Jody_S]

So you would agree that 10 minutes is not enough time to let a large barrel lens (such as a vertito ~6lbs) to warm up in the middle of winter before adjusting the aperture... In-fact, maybe a few hours (4+?) at minimum would be required?

And damage to stuck moving parts while cold is another issue in addition to condensation is another reason it is best to warm up lenses before opening.

Definitely needs a few hours, and I don't like having them exposed to room temperature air while they warm, either. I worry about thermal shock, cracked glass, and separation more than I do about breaking an iris, because I would never use a cold iris if I weren't 100% certain that it was clean and moving freely. Not to mention that some of the older ones aren't even made of metal, the material is fragile enough without adding the factor of cold (sorry, I don't know the name of the lacquer-like material).

[StoneNYC]

Wear a vest and put them in my pocket in a baggie, or take them into the basement 55 degrees is usually cold enough to take a look at them, but I agree you should give it some time to warm up. Any lens should be SHIPPED in a bag of some kind so it should be safe to at least open the box to allow for faster warmup of the lens without worrying about condensation.

As for 8x10 guy, I can't imagine even at these cold temps (I live on New England) that an aperture would simply "fall apart" from being used in cold temps, to me that means it needed a CLA, but I agree the guy was stupid for opening it up and using it right away. But even 10 minutes in, the inside of the lens was probably still cold and only the outside soul have warmed at all, so it shouldn't have caused an issue with the aperture. I think it probably got damaged in shipment.

[8x10 user]

Its hard to say how the damaged occurred.... The blades do not appear to have snapped off but are in disorder. I'm not sure if such damage is possible without a turning motion being applied to the lens aperture. The item was triple boxed with a 14x14x14 outer box. It was shipped on New Years Eve and it was very cold. The lens is almost a 100 years old.

One time I ordered a new Ries A250-2 tripod head only to find that the Wisconsin cold and shipping broke a roughly 1" thick rounded cast iron support beam.

[8x10 user]

The situation is very odd. I have never seen something like this happen before. The whole story sounds strange. The buyer first said the shutter was not functioning properly and obviously there isn't a shutter. Then he tells me he is buying it for his friend in china who doesn't want to wait for the repair. I tried to be helpful and suggested he file a claim with the post office if he was sure that the damage was there before he messed with the lens.

The barrel of the lens has some defects and a small repair that were clearly described. The buyer says the lens blades must have been previously shattered and then glued into place at the same time. That is completely ridiculous of course (a.) as the aperture worked fine at all settings before I shipped it and you cannot just glue moving parts into place. (b.) there are no signs of glue in my photos or on the lens. (c.) Because the repair on the barrel was done by a professional camera shop with a record of it showing the aperture was not involved. I tried to explain this in hopes to reason with the buyer and he stopped communicating with me and had his CC company reverse the payment to PayPal.

Now I have no lens and no payment.

[Tin Can]

And that is why PayPay scares me, the seller has no recourse.


The situation is very odd. I have never seen something like this happen before. The whole story sounds strange. The buyer first said the shutter was not functioning properly and obviously there isn't a shutter. Then he tells me he is buying it for his friend in china who doesn't want to wait for the repair. I tried to be helpful and suggested he file a claim with the post office if he was sure that the damage was there before he messed with the lens.

The barrel of the lens has some defects and a small repair that were clearly described. The buyer says the lens blades must have been previously shattered and then glued into place at the same time. That is completely ridiculous of course (a.) as the aperture worked fine at all settings before I shipped it and you cannot just glue moving parts into place. (b.) there are no signs of glue in my photos or on the lens. (c.) Because the repair on the barrel was done by a professional camera shop with a record of it showing the aperture was not involved. I tried to explain this in hopes to reason with the buyer and he stopped communicating with me and had his CC company reverse the payment to PayPal.

Now I have no lens and no payment.

[Corran]

It sounds like you just got burned from someone taking advantage of Paypal's system that almost always sides with the buyer. When someone is being that insistent you are usually screwed. I would file a claim with the PO as soon as you can and call Paypal and explain the situation. Keep all emails and point out inconsistencies and statements that prove he doesn't know what he's talking about (like calling it a shutter).

It's almost surely damage from his handling somehow - not necessarily from cold but just doing something stupid. Paypal WILL pay for repairs if you prove it was undamaged before shipment. I've gone through this song and dance before and it's not fun and can be really stressful.

[StoneNYC]

And that is why PayPay scares me, the seller has no recourse.

If he insured the lens with the shipper, he can claim the refund from them. Damaged on arrival.

[Corran]

The problem is that now the buyer has no obligation to ship the lens back. Paypal has little to no recourse for a seller if they get a charge reversed. They just take their money from the seller.

Hopefully he sends it back, broken or not. Of course then, depending on the shipper and their terms, a damage claim can not necessarily be done because they will say it was broken when it was shipped back.

I had to hound FedEx for a month on a claim for a camera that they destroyed when it got Returned to Sender since the buyer suddenly left the country. They claimed it wasn't broken on shipment but while waiting to be picked up (doesn't matter!). I had to spend hours of my time talking to claims agents and getting documents/photos/etc. Again, it is not fun! The trick was explaining to them exactly what was wrong in highly technical terms. They got so confused they just approved the claim to get me to shut up.

[StoneNYC]

You really shouldn't talk about things you don't know about.

You're wrong completely about how paypal handles disputes like that.

First as the buyer you have to make a complaint, then ship the item back to the seller with tracking, paypal verifies receipt of the shipped item from the seller before refunding the money.

If the lens weren't sent back, they wouldn't refund the purchase.

They also first ask the seller to work things out privately with the buyer of course.

Either way, if you "get screwed" by paypal, as either a buyer or seller, your most likely not following proper procedure as outlined by paypal and that's your own fault not paypal's.

[8x10 user]

Yes, I don't ship with FedEx for the same reason... Their insurance claims section gave us "the-run-around" for over a month back at my old job.

With the post office only the recipient can file the claim. The buyer said the item was packed and there as no sign of damage on the packaging.

To me it does feel like there is a violation of buyer-seller trust. This fellows seems like he just wants to pin the damage on me somehow selling him a defective item without listening to reason or having any interest in exploring the truth. The fact that he is buying the item for a friend is China suggests to me that the friend wanted him to lie to customs and lower the declared value in order to avoid paying the proper import taxes/fees. I'd hope the recipient is honest enough that he would not attempt to return an item that was knowingly damaged in his care. But if not, why does he refuse to take the matter up with the post? I feel that I did everything right with this transaction and that I should not be responsible for damage by the customer or the post. It would be another matter if the item was not as described or under packed.

[8x10 user]

It is not a refund (yet), its a hold. The buyer went straight to the credit card company and had them dispute the original charge with Paypal. Paypal apparently offers no seller protection against chargebacks. The paypal returns process was not used. I really thought after the amount of business I did with paypal and ebay that they would have my back on this.



You really shouldn't talk about things you don't know about.

You're wrong completely about how paypal handles disputes like that.

First as the buyer you have to make a complaint, then ship the item back to the seller with tracking, paypal verifies receipt of the shipped item from the seller before refunding the money.

If the lens weren't sent back, they wouldn't refund the purchase.

They also first ask the seller to work things out privately with the buyer of course.

Either way, if you "get screwed" by paypal, as either a buyer or seller, your most likely not following proper procedure as outlined by paypal and that's your own fault not paypal's.

[8x10 user]

These are the photos taken by the recipient showing the aperture damage:

108848108849

The aperture functioned perfectly when I had the lens.

[StoneNYC]

It is not a refund (yet), its a hold. The buyer went straight to the credit card company and had them dispute the original charge with Paypal. Paypal apparently offers no seller protection against chargebacks. The paypal returns process was not used. I really thought after the amount of business I did with paypal and ebay that they would have my back on this.

Have you contacted paypal?

Inform them specifically, that the buyer did not wish to go through PayPal for a buyer dispute and went right to the credit card companies, this intern will allow them to inform the credit card companies that the buyer isn't following proper procedure, they will most likely deny the chargeback. Just give good communication to paypal even if you have to wait on hold, talk to a person. PayPal is really understanding. I've done this a few times on both sides.

[Corran]

I had over 3 months of stress dealing with EXACTLY this kind of problem. You need to go look it up, because he said the buyer did a CC transaction reversal, which means Paypal is going to get their money from the seller - period. Yes, they are required to send it back, IF they use Paypal's system, which he didn't, apparently.

And it doesn't matter how much you use Paypal, they will still screw you. I was in their "Advantage" program or whatever it was called for having over $50,000 worth of transactions and it didn't mean squat when a buyer pulled this kind of BS.


You really shouldn't talk about things you don't know about.

You're wrong completely about how paypal handles disputes like that.

First as the buyer you have to make a complaint, then ship the item back to the seller with tracking, paypal verifies receipt of the shipped item from the seller before refunding the money.

If the lens weren't sent back, they wouldn't refund the purchase.

They also first ask the seller to work things out privately with the buyer of course.

Either way, if you "get screwed" by paypal, as either a buyer or seller, your most likely not following proper procedure as outlined by paypal and that's your own fault not paypal's.

[StoneNYC]

These are the photos taken by the recipient showing the aperture damage:

108848108849

The aperture functioned perfectly when I had the lens.

The edge of the lens looks really beat up, was it like that before?

He may be trying to get a free lens.

Many times, what will happen, is that PayPal will refund you the money, but not insist that the seller send back the lens if it is already damaged and will just say "throw it away" but of course the seller will keep it and either fix it or sell it at a discount having made a profit. I've seen that too.

[8x10 user]

Yes, the rim was damaged and then repaired a professional (as described). The buyer claims the aperture must have been also damaged but the records of the repair show otherwise. I tied to get the lens open to clean the inner elements and this one doesn't even come apart. There is no way the aperture was "shattered" then "glued". Do you see any glue anywhere near the aperture blades? Its still a mystery to me how such damaged could have occurred.

[8x10 user]

I would estimate the cost of the repair to be ~5% of the selling price of the item.

[Corran]

I did get a lens from some Eastern European country once and it arrived with damage to the aperture blades just like that. I have no idea how. It was also impossible to fix.

[8x10 user]

I thought that Flutots might be able to repair it.... You don't think so?

[Corran]

I'm no expert but the lens I had was a very rare and enigmatic thing so I think that was the issue.

[StoneNYC]

I have a lens that did that, I can't remember why or what happened to it, but it was random and happened out of no where. That's one of the reasons that modern shutter makers have less blades even though the look isn't as pleasing, the fewer blades cause less problems.

It's POSSIBLE it was just coincidence.

Either way, hope it all works out.

[Jody_S]

Looks to me like the lens was dropped in transit, and some of the pins popped out of their sockets. Then, when the buyer moved the ring, the rest were forced out in turn. Should be repairable at minimal cost, assuming he didn't force it enough to break the blades. Any lens can be taken apart, after all someone had to assemble it.

[goamules]

Yes, just scanning this thread 8x10, but I've had Wollensak's blades pop loose like that before. They are kind of touchy. If all the parts are there, it's easy to get it working again. If they are the cardboard/bakelite material, and broken, you're in a worse situation. I'd try to get the lens back, fix it yourself, and resell it.

It's a travesty how buyers use Ebay to get refunds with ANY problem on 75 year old lenses or cameras. But not other items. If you buy a 30 year old Coleman lantern, and it doesn't work, you can't pull this game. The sellers don't even address if it works or not - it's just an old lantern and up to you to get it working. Or a 100 yr old pocket watch. The sellers say, "working now, but cannot guarantee it will be working when it arrives...etc." Almost all other antiques can have dents, scratches, and be broken. Toys, clocks, electric trains....NOTHING has to be "Guaranteed Working!" except 1920s lenses and 1940s Leica cameras!

I think camera buyers have set too high expectations, so sellers have to put detailed descriptions like, "All shutter speeds accurate....aperture works smoothly and has a round hole....I can see 3 small bubbles in the glass....varnish is somewhat worn in places....bottom of Leica has small fingernail sized scratch...here are pictures I've taken with this lens...." And know what? It's still not good enough and the first thing most forums (not this one much) say if a guy mentions a stiff aperture or scratched base plate on a recent purchase is "Demand a partial refund." Buy and Try has become a way of life. Rant over.

[jp]

Toys, clocks, electric trains....NOTHING has to be "Guaranteed Working!" except 1920s lenses and 1940s Leica cameras!


You forgot used cars on your list of things expected to be guaranteed working. I sold a car online once. The first bite, a guy flew up from maryland looked it over, found a little 1" long scratch that didn't go through the paint (that a detailer could fix) and went home mad and empty handed as it didn't meet his expectations. Actual buyer, the person was pleased for what the car was. I've bought a couple online too; you have to remember it's not brand new and perfect.

[8x10 user]

The case was updated today. PayPal has completely reversed the payment for the lens but they say that they are going to attempt to recover the funds from the credit card company on my behalf. What makes this completely nuts is that is actually the best possible outcome that one can receive for a charge back for items with a claim to be "not as described". Now everything is in the hands of this guys credit card company who have an obviously bias toward their customer and have no experiences in old lenses like this. I have read that eBay and Paypal use to ban users for chargebacks but now they allow it.

This is right from the paypal user's agreement:

"11.5 Items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection. The following are examples of items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection.
* Claims or Chargebacks for Significantly Not as Described.
* Items that you deliver in person, including in connection with In-Store Checkout.
* Intangible items, including Digital Goods, and services.
* PayPal Direct Payments.
* Virtual Terminal Payments.
* PayPal Business Payments.
* Items that are not shipped to the recipient's shipping address on the Transaction Details Page. If you originally ship the item to the recipient's shipping address on the Transaction Details Page but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery."

There is no coverage for chargeback claims that an item is not as described even when the claim is perceived is unfactual or fraudulent.

[8x10 user]

I remember my father telling me about how the Tin buttons on coats of the soldiers of Napoleons army failed (from cold) when they invaded Russia. What do you suppose the aperture pins were made out of? Do you think the cold could have caused them to fail. I've seen a many examples of this lens with chips on the Rim. It seems a more brittle metal was used for the barrel. Its not brass and I dont think it is aluminum either.

In this case it sounds like it is both possible that the pins were damaged in shipping or that the blades were locked up from the cold when the recipient forced the aperture (the pins might have been weakened from still being cold). Either way the item was as described and "well packed" so the buyer should either file a claim with the post office or accept that he made a mistake if the damaged occurred at his hands. Its a real shame, not only about the lens, and payment, but because the buyer is not happy which is something I have not had before. I wish I could find a way to get him to see my point of view or find another way to amend the situation that is fair and mutually acceptable.

Should older lenses be shipped with heat packs and on warmer days?

[StoneNYC]

Why don't you just call the guy on the phone? You have access to his telephone number, use it...

[8x10 user]

PayPal Charged me a $20 fee on top of the reversal. I had to pay them to take my payment away.

[Tin Can]

LOL, sorry...


PayPal Charged me a $20 fee on top of the reversal. I had to pay them to take my payment away.

[8x10 user]

I wrote to the buyer and explained about the pins and tried once more to explain that this was not a preexisting issue. If damaged in the post an insurance claim should be made. In addition I offered a small partial refund a peace offering. The blades looked to be metal so it sounds like repairing the broken Pins is not going to be a big deal.

Have you guys ever seen the movie Brazil? It might be what the government would be like if it was ran by PayPal.

[Tin Can]

Gotta watch Brazil again soon!


I wrote to the buyer and explained about the pins and tried once more to explain that this was not a preexisting issue. If damaged in the post an insurance claim should be made. In addition I offered a small partial refund a peace offering. The blades looked to be metal so it sounds like repairing the broken Pins is not going to be a big deal.

Have you guys ever seen the movie Brazil? It might be what the government would be like if it was ran by PayPal.

[Jody_S]

PayPal Charged me a $20 fee on top of the reversal. I had to pay them to take my payment away.

WTF? They have no shame. I've tried stating in my auctions that I would rather be paid with a money order. Guess what? You can't write 'money order' or 'MO' in an ebay auction page, they block it. There will be a class action lawsuit against them, sooner or later.

[8x10 user]

Paypal was unable to recover the funds from the buyers credit card company. So I am out a $3500 lens, a $3500 payment, and still had to pay $300 in ebay fees. I hear it is very rare for the CC company to side against the buyer no matter what the facts are...

I wrote to flutot and they said it could have been the buyer trying to force a cold lens or the mounting plate that holds the aperture pins in place could have become loose. She estimated the repair for the latter to be around $88 if all of the pins/blades are still intact. Also she said she would be able to tell if the damage was done by the buyer or in shipping. She added that the images I sent her of the lens before it was shipped showed no damaged. I sent this to paypal but it did no good.

Now Paypal recommends that I report the buyer to the (federal) internet crimes fraud division. This seems extreme to me so I might just try to get the buyer to send me the damage item back. This still leaves me short ~$500 for ebay fees, Express mail shipping with insurance, and the cost of the repair which could be more if the buyer damaged the pins. Plus the huge inconvenience. I have figured out that the buyer in china is actually an active member of this forum but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to divulge his identity.

It is amazing how many times I have been a victim of fraud as a buyer and a seller. I kind of like it when it is time for me to sell a lens because I like the idea of providing a better buying experience then the norm. I don't know anymore... After this I just feel defeated, it is quite unsettling to know that you can do everything right and still get screwed over this badly. What good is insurance and paypal if there is no real protection? Is there noway to insure a safe an honest transaction anymore?

Oh but at least PayPal refunded me the $20 chargeback fee.

[Corran]

Sorry to hear this. If he does not return the item I would totally post about it in the Buyer/Seller advisories!!

[Tin Can]

This is one reason many do not like to sell outside their own continent. I had a bad buyer with my first eBay sale years ago, the buyer wanted a huge reduction in price, since it was heavy he wouldn't return the books. I found his home phone and called him, that really upset him and I told him I was driving down to collect my books, 500 miles away. He paid.

I try to only buy lenses and never sell them. Not worth the hassle, see the shutter speed thread.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I have figured out that the buyer in china is actually an active member of this forum but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to divulge his identity...Why not?


...If he does not return the item I would totally post about it in the Buyer/Seller advisories!!Absolutely!

[StoneNYC]

Yes, it's totally appropriate to identify the buyer, especially if they have never returned the lens to you... And filed this claim through their CC instead of discussing it with you. I would like to know who it was, it could prevent others from being taken advantage of.

[8x10 user]

The fellow in china buys a lot of gear on here, and I actually like his work. It seems like most of the folks doing wetplate in Asian know each other. I don't want to make waves or alienate myself. Maybe these posts have already alienated me... I'm sure having trouble finding a buyer for that sweet lanthar lens.

It sounds like the contact in the US will send the item back to me if I pay for return shipping and insurance via COD. So I'm looking at a minimum loss of ~$600 in ebay, paypal, insurance, repairs, and postage fees in addition to having $3500 tied up for 2 months or more. Plus I pissed off two photographers with deep pockets and a taste for exquisite glass. Its frustrating to me. I guess maybe I should have accepted the return of the lens even though it was damaged... But, the claim that the item was missrepresented; that the blades were previously knocked out of place and then glued back was just so outlandish and impossible. I mean, I went through the entire aperture range before listing the item. I would have had to been completely ignorant or intentionally misrepresented the condition of the item. I felt the need to defend myself against the accusation as a matter of integrity. The facts matter to me. I don't want someone to think I am dishonest or to take the blame for damage caused by the post office. I pay the post office hundreds of dollars a year for insurance. The one time something happens and the recipient randomly refuses to cooperate with the insurance process, so I have to take the loss. How does that happen?

[Corran]

In my opinion the person is being ridiculous. I absolutely want to know who it is, regardless of his stature, so I know not to sell to them.

I have sent many thousands of dollars worth of lenses to China with no problem. Things happen. If it was insured, they should be willing to work through the claim! Especially if it's fixable. If not, and it was "forced" open, that is NOT your fault.

As for your Lanthar, that's a sweet lens. I have the 150mm version and love it. I'd totally buy it for the same $/mm that the 150mm cost...but that's waaaaay lower than your asking price :)

[8x10 user]

As for your Lanthar, that's a sweet lens. I have the 150mm version and love it. I'd totally buy it for the same $/mm that the 150mm cost...but that's waaaaay lower than your asking price :)

I can price it per mm, but at the same rate as the 10.5cm version ;)

[Corran]

Ha...yeah I saw one of those 10.5cm go for something crazy on eBay. I'm sure it would be sweet on a little folder!