Soft focus (portrait) lenses for 4x5

[analoguey]

Was browsing through the soft focus lens thread and I think there were examples of 'pictorialism'?
I would like to get a similar soft-focus effect - I understand part of it is printing,
but, For a beginner on 4x5 what would be your recommended soft-focus lens, let's say, under 500$.

I'd want to try one of the older models to see if I can get a true vintage/classic look.

Thanks!

[goamules]

Hello again! The cheapest way would be to look for a old, brass landscape meniscus lens, one that you could open up the nominal aperture of F11 to about F4.5 or so. These are the squat lenses that have a hole in the front, no glass in front. They often have a wheelstop mechanism. If you can get that out, or unscrew the barrel, they are nice and soft when shot wider open than designed. Some of the pillbox types actually make it easy, you can unscrew the front brass section for the washer stop, and end up with a fast, soft lens. This one is a little long for 4x5: 291058229831

Otherwise, look for a small 7-9" Verito, but they are usually not that cheap anymore.

[analoguey]

Thank you. What would I do for shutters? And lens board mounting -do these come in the #0,1 or 3 sizes? Or different ones?
So if I understand you right, I'd have to remove the barrel for the soft focus effect?

[CCHarrison]

Analoguey,

Take a look at my post here for soft focus on the cheap http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?85667-More-Soft-Focus-on-the-cheap

Good luck
Dan

[Andrew Plume]

Thank you. What would I do for shutters? And lens board mounting -do these come in the #0,1 or 3 sizes? Or different ones?
So if I understand you right, I'd have to remove the barrel for the soft focus effect?

yes, you need to remove part

shutters are easy, in that you don't really need one, simply find a fitting lens cap, remove for one or two seconds and replace, voila your film will then be exposed

older lenses were manufactured well before the Copal shutter sizes were invented, if you are using wooden lens boards, then simply cut a whole for the rear of the lens

regards

andrew

[Steven Tribe]

Landscape meniscus lenses used to be the Cinderella of 1890/1910 brass lenses. At that period they were part of the budget photography set for the amateur. Regretably, they are very often with restricted apertures which require violence to open them up and they have become very popular (expensive, compared with 10 years ago).

Another source of similar achromats is the front part of a magic lantern lens. These are often damaged at the rear due to heat problems and ill treatment ( a light touch is required for dismantling and cleaning the two rear elements). The front achromat is usually in quite good shape and coverage for up to 8x10 will be no problem. The most common size is around 46-52mm barrel diameter. Look for plain tube type which attracts less interest than the brassy/wheel pinnion versions.

It is said that 1/2 rapid rectilinear lenses are not so much fun!

[AtlantaTerry]

shutters are easy, in that you don't really need one, simply find a fitting lens cap, remove for one or two seconds and replace, voila your film will then be exposed

older lenses were manufactured well before the Copal shutter sizes were invented, if you are using wooden lens boards, then simply cut a whole for the rear of the lens

regards
andrew

Also one can use a Packard Shutter.
http://www.packardshutter.com/

[8x10 user]

The cooke anastigmats are pretty good portrait lenses.

[dap]

I would look into an imagon - the smaller sizes are easy to find and relatively cheap (and many have shutters). They are not made of brass and not popular with collectors, which is good - you will end up getting a solid value and will avoid paying inflated collector prices.

[Mark Sawyer]

Well, if you really want cheap...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?35097-A-new-line-of-Chinese-pictorial-lenses!

[analoguey]

Analoguey,

Take a look at my post here for soft focus on the cheap http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?85667-More-Soft-Focus-on-the-cheap

Good luck
Dan

I did, I am still new to the terminology - new even to large format - so it will probably need a bit of time to sink in.


yes, you need to remove part

shutters are easy, in that you don't really need one, simply find a fitting lens cap, remove for one or two seconds and replace, voila your film will then be exposed

older lenses were manufactured well before the Copal shutter sizes were invented, if you are using wooden lens boards, then simply cut a whole for the rear of the lens

regards

andrew


Hmm, right. Would one have a long exposure even if using flash? (speed lights)


Landscape meniscus lenses used to be the Cinderella of 1890/1910 brass lenses. At that period they were part of the budget photography set for the amateur. Regretably, they are very often with restricted apertures which require violence to open them up and they have become very popular (expensive, compared with 10 years ago).

Another source of similar achromats is the front part of a magic lantern lens. These are often damaged at the rear due to heat problems and ill treatment ( a light touch is required for dismantling and cleaning the two rear elements). The front achromat is usually in quite good shape and coverage for up to 8x10 will be no problem. The most common size is around 46-52mm barrel diameter. Look for plain tube type which attracts less interest than the brassy/wheel pinnion versions.

It is said that 1/2 rapid rectilinear lenses are not so much fun!

Ok, I shall try -although most of the terms above would require at least a wiki search to get what they refer too - especially the terms defining the type of lens!

[analoguey]

Also one can use a Packard Shutter.
http://www.packardshutter.com/

Alrighty! Quite a few on bay with these I think.


I would look into an imagon - the smaller sizes are easy to find and relatively cheap (and many have shutters). They are not made of brass and not popular with collectors, which is good - you will end up getting a solid value and will avoid paying inflated collector prices.

Aha. Yes, I'd prefer that the lens have more user value. Cant pay for a collector's item yet.


Well, if you really want cheap...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?35097-A-new-line-of-Chinese-pictorial-lenses!

That is an awesome suggestion, Mark. I think this would be something really awesome and easy to try!
I didn't get how you estimated the f stops though? And what you would do for aperture setting?

[Mark Sawyer]

That is an awesome suggestion, Mark. I think this would be something really awesome and easy to try!
I didn't get how you estimated the f stops though? And what you would do for aperture setting?

The f/stop is easy: The focal length (distance from the lens to the ground glass when in focus) divided by the aperture, (diameter of the lens). So a 12-inch focal length with a 2-inch diameter lens is 12 divided by 2... f/6!

If you want to shut down the aperture, cut some circular holes in black cardboard and put it in front of the lens. A half-inch hole on that 12-inch lens gives you f/24.

[Paul Ewins]

You could also look at the Fujinon SF lenses - 180 and 250mm - which are an Imagon style lens. As with the Imagon make sure that at least one of the "sink strainer" disks is included since they are what produce the desired effect. The BINs on eBay are around the $400 mark but I have seen them go for much less and indeed KEH has a 250 Fujinon with just the red disk for $225. The Fujinons should have a red and a yellow disk, while the Imagons usually have three disks labelled with the effective f-stop.

[Ken Lee]

A minor correction please if I'm not mistaken: the Fuijinon SFS and Rodenstock Imagon lenses are similar in that they both allow you to use special inserts, but their optical designs are different.

[Alan Gales]

A minor correction please if I'm not mistaken: the Fuijinon SFS and Rodenstock Imagon lenses are similar in that they both allow you to use special inserts, but their optical designs are different.

From my understanding on the Fujinon you remove a front element and place the strainer between the front and rear elements. On the Imagon the strainer goes in front of all the glass. There is no front element.

This design difference causes a slightly different effect. Some people prefer the "look" of the Fujinon and others prefer the "look" of the Imagon.

Clear as mud, right? :)

[jp]

For 4x5, the fuji isn't soft enough for me.
I would suggest these options
for minimal budget: speed graphic (has shutter)
1. magnifying glass/+5 closeup lens
2. Reinhold Wollaston meniscus 190mm
for mid-budget
1. old land-scape lens without aperture
2. Imagon
for bigger budget
1. verito
2. kodak 305 is your bellows are long enough

As far as shutters go,
you can use slow film and use a hat/darkslide for shutter for slow speeds. You can shoot after sundown or in dim light for more speed control
you can salvage a shutter from a lens with bad glass if it's big enough
you can use a speed graphic or graflex with built in shutter
you can use a sinar shutter

[Mark Sawyer]

...As far as shutters go,
you can use slow film and use a hat/darkslide for shutter for slow speeds. You can shoot after sundown or in dim light for more speed control
you can salvage a shutter from a lens with bad glass if it's big enough
you can use a speed graphic or graflex with built in shutter
you can use a sinar shutter

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll cross-mention it here too. The ubiquitous Copal 3 shutter has 58mm threads front and rear. One can remove the "normal" elements and screw in a 58mm close-up diopter at the rear and have a soft lens with a modern flash-synched shutter. A 58mm UV filter will keep dust out of the front.

[Reinhold Schable]

Here's a clone of photography's first lens (1812).

http://re-inventedphotoequip.com/Home.html

It does a nice job on portraits.
A finished product at a reasonable cost.

Reinhold

[Dan Dozer]

You asked about using a flash, so I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.

I use a lot of older brass lenses for indoor portrait type of work that don't have shutters or flash sinc's in them. The simplest way to do flash photography for indoor portrait work is to connect your flash up to a remote triggering device. You simply darken the room after you have composed and set your flash accordingly, take off the lens cap, pop the shutter, then replace the lens cap. The one or two seconds that the lens cap is off won't register on the film as long as you darken the room somewhat. There are very inexpensive triggering devices available, but they do fail sometimes and don't work. My fall back position is to just connect the flash to one of my newer lenses that does have a shutter and use it with a cable release as the flash triggering device separately from the camera. Do the same process - turn off the modelling lamp(s), remove the lens cap, pop the shutter, replace the lens cap.

Another solution if you are a little creative is to get a packard shutter mounted to a board and fit it over the front of the lens. If you put together a little device on the shutter that the flash is connected to that opens the circuit when the packard shutter is open, it will fire the flash automatically and you have a flash that is sinc'ed to your shutter. Sounds complicated, but it is really pretty simple - a couple of brass or copper strips that the packard plunger trips. If you're interested, let me now and I can try to find a photo of the one I made.

Hope this helps

[analoguey]

Mark
Definitely trying that idea.

Dan,
I got what you said most of the way, you mean basic remote triggering, in the first part right? Via PC or radio triggers?

The Packard shutter bit completely stumped me.

[8x10 user]

4x5 has more shutter options then larger formats. Some lenses come with a shutter but these may be more expensive and have a less round aperture. Also the selection will be higher with barrel lenses, especially with soft focus and "portrait" lenses.

For using barrel lenses with the 4x5 camera some options include:

1 Rear or front mount the lens with copal shutter
2 Install a universal, behind-the-lens shutter, packard shutters are common but for 4x5 you can also use a Sinar/Copal behind the lens shutter which gives you more options. My 5x7 Seneca came with an internally mounted packard and is very light.
3 Find a camera with a Focal Plane Shutter
4 Use odd work arounds... Jim Galli shutter, and the lens cap method, ect.

You can also try contacting SK Grimes regarding lens mounting options and they also have some information on their website (http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/table-of-lenses-fitted-to-shutters)

[Dan Dozer]

Mark
Definitely trying that idea.

Dan,
I got what you said most of the way, you mean basic remote triggering, in the first part right? Via PC or radio triggers?

The Packard shutter bit completely stumped me.

Yes about the remote triggering.

Regarding the Packard shutter - I'll try to take a photo of mine to show you - it's really difficult to explain in writing. However, I'm out of town right now and won't be back for about a week or so - give me a little time. A little triggering device on a Packard shutter is not difficult to make.

[Harold_4074]

You did mention that you are planning on 4x5 format; many of the home-grown soft optics are better suited to larger formats, unless you are planning to make contact prints. What looks lovely on the 4x5 groundglass with, say, a 250mm Imagon wide open, is sometimes much too soft when enlarged to 8x10 unless you are looking at it from across the room. The commercial soft-focus portrait lenses were deliberately engineered to combine a sharp image with controllable diffusion, something that a recycled binocular objective won't necessarily give you. The good news is that almost any alternative to a commercial optic is so cheap that you can afford to experiment a lot!

Regarding shutters, there is a good bit of discussion out there on ways to get around the small lensboards and limited interior space of most 4x5 cameras. Packards are wonderful, and not that expensive, but the kind of non-shuttered lenses that you are hearing about are pretty large in diameter, so front-mounting of the shutter may be necessary. For example, the largest current Packard that will go through a 4"x4" opening has a 2" diameter hole which is smaller than the rear threads of a Copal 3 shutter.

[Mark Sawyer]

Yes about the remote triggering.

Regarding the Packard shutter - I'll try to take a photo of mine to show you - it's really difficult to explain in writing. However, I'm out of town right now and won't be back for about a week or so - give me a little time. A little triggering device on a Packard shutter is not difficult to make.

Okay, we'll give you the time. But this had better be good.

We're expecting like, Nobel Prize good.

Not just some, "oh, look, it makes contact when the shutter is most open" sort of thing. We all know that...

The pressure is on...

:rolleyes:

[C. D. Keth]

If all you want is to trigger some strobes, you can just wire up a button. You just wire an 1/8" female back to a button so when the button is depressed, the circuit is completed. The packard shutter will work on that same principle with a couple bits of metal that touch when the shutter is fully open.

[Harold_4074]

We're expecting like, Nobel Prize good.

In the interim, would you accept Ignobel Prize good? I wanted a little more than flash sync, so I built the gadget below. It has a self-timer, adjustable exposure time, and flash sync at either the beginning or and of the exposure. It works, too...

109440

[Jim Galli]

Was browsing through the soft focus lens thread and I think there were examples of 'pictorialism'?
I would like to get a similar soft-focus effect - I understand part of it is printing,
but, For a beginner on 4x5 what would be your recommended soft-focus lens, let's say, under 500$.

I'd want to try one of the older models to see if I can get a true vintage/classic look.

Thanks!

Take a look at this thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?67483-Antique-4X5-Achromatic-Meniscus-Lens-in-modern-Copal-Shutter!). It has everything you've asked for in an easy to use modern shutter - except - 105mm is pretty short for portraits. One way to make it work that might be really good for learning is to make up a mask where you do "1/2 frame 4X5. So you'd end up with 2 2 1/2 X 4 inch negs on each sheet. Then the 105 would really look pretty good for a portrait.

[Toyon]

Ignore the well-meaning ignoramuses who suggest you buy a meniscus lens or a petzval. Those are NOT soft focus lenses. They are actually sharp lenses that have a circumscribed area of sharpness in the center of the lens. Outside of the center zome there is a softish blurring. A purpose-built soft-focus lens introduces a complex blurring effect across the entire lens. It is a combination of sharpness and blurring combined. Well worth reading articles on the subject.

[jp]

i must be a well meaning ignoramus because my meniscus is not sharp in the center.

[Jim Galli]

Let's see, the Kodak Portrait lens, the Pinkham Series 1 Series II Series III and Series V, The Spencer Portland, The Gundlach Achromatic Meniscus Portrait, just to name a few that come to mind very quickly, all Meniscus types. The Verito is just a meniscus with a magnifier up front. I would venture that MOST of the soft focus images on earth have been made with this basic lens type. An achromatic meniscus doublet.

Some more I forgot. Rodenstock Imagon. Bausch & Lomb Plastigmat Portrait, Kalosat, Plasticca, The original Cooke Portrait f6.

[goamules]

More meniscus soft focus lenses. The granddaddy of them all, the Taylor, Taylor Hobson RVP. The Struss Pictorial.

[Toyon]

i must be a well meaning ignoramus because my meniscus is not sharp in the center.

That's due to poor construction. It is not a deliberate effect. But it may have accidental greatness?

[jp]

Of course it's not deliberate that I'm a well meaning ignoramus with 3 meniscus lenses.

[jnantz]

i must be a well meaning ignoramus because my meniscus is not sharp in the center.

same here, about 8 or 9 of them ...