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View Full Version : I need advice to buy 5x4 for interiors & architecture Im changing from using medium format



james silverman
8-Sep-2004, 07:23
I have spent weeks baffling about what to do

I have been using a medium format camera system a Bronica SQAI 6x6 to shoot interiors.Mainly homes. My work has appeared in magazines like House & Garden and Dwell. Ive used my camera to its limits.Im a freelancer and mainly my work is self financed which means laying out film costs and scanning costs which i try to keep to a minimum. The first issue I have with 5x4 is the film is expensive and I thought the only way to finance projects would be to shoot roll film unless commissioned.

I am British living in Sweden shooting architectural homes and have wondered if a field camera would hold too many restrictions for me.

My aim is to move on to shooting exteriors and interiors of large architectural buildings so I would think a monorail view camera would be more appropriate.

I looked at a Sinar F1 and SinarP2 and realised the construction of the P2 was robust and strong...however a studio based camera based on the weight..

Sometimes I shoot long exposures of 10mins-1hr and am worried about the wind moving my camera and also I shoot in the rain and snow so interested on opinions of shooting in these conditions.

I want to buy a 5x4 kit on the web, however I find all the people i phoneup to speak with unfriendly and patronising and always in a hurry.

So I have held off from buying anything.

wide angle and standard lenses are what i need ive been used to using 40mm+80mm lenses on my 6x6 so I guess thats like buying in 5x4 terms a 65 or 75 lens and a 150 lens.

I am also worried about the whole composing the image whilst being upside down ..however Ive been told i need a bino reflex for this and it will flip the image.

I have looked through this site and read articles however it still does not help me make any decision as to which camera i need.I phoned up Mrcad in the UK which say they ship all the Sinars to BHphoto in the US.They said that the Norma was abetter camera than the Sinar.But got angry i asked questions so I need help..

good suggestions and any suggestions about Sinars or Swiss Arca any camera system I dont mind. I dont want money to be an issue as this will be a system that I will have for years. I bought a Bronica years ago and it has been great for what i needed it for but it never had shift lenses and used a spirit level on my tripod to keep parrallels.So i dont want to compromise any more however the P2 system i know is too heavy

this kit below I picked up on myself is what i need to get going

F1 Sinar ground glass screen polaroid back standard lens/150 1 wide angle lens 65 or 75 lens bino reflex monorail bag bellows a couple of dark slides 6x9 roll back dark cloth

I dont know why if id be better getting Sinar F or F1 or F2 or any other camera.

Please can any interior + architectural photographers enlighten me as I dont have anyone to ask who i can get advice from

I look forward to your responses

David A. Goldfarb
8-Sep-2004, 07:55
What you're looking at is a perfectly good setup.

A 90mm lens is very useful for architecture with 4x5". I wouldn't want to be without one.

A 75mm is about as wide as one can go for interiors without making the space look bigger than it is. Sometimes one needs a 65mm or wider just to get everything in, but in most cases, I think it it produces an exaggerated appearance on 4x5", and since 65mm lenses don't leave much room for movement anyway on 4x5", you could stick with your 40mm/6x6 combo for now when you need a very wide lens, and use a 75mm for interiors when 90mm is not enough.

Another alternative might be to go with a combo like 150/80 Super-Symmar XL/65.

I'd hold off on the bino reflex viewer and decide whether you really need it. Most people get used to the upside-down image fairly quickly, and a reflex viewer is a bulky thing. It's not as if you are following a moving subject and will be unable to correct if you move the camera in the wrong direction at first. It's a matter of personal preference, and you can always add a reflex viewer, if you think you need it.

steve simmons
8-Sep-2004, 08:09
There is a lot of info on our web site that will be helpful

www.viewcamera.com

also, get a copy of Phtographing Buildings Inside and Out by Norman McGrath

steve simmons

james silverman
8-Sep-2004, 08:10
I think the lenses arent so much of a problem yet I think its a question of which camera body ,bellows,rail to get ..

for me i am not used to looking at such dark viewing.I tried looking at a p2 in a London Calumet store with a dark cloth it was so hot in there it was uncomfortable to be under the dark cloth....however it takes time and experience to understand upside down..I dont think I could compose without it.

150/80 Super-Symmar XL/65

Super-Symmar XL/65. ? thats the type of lens i presume Super Symmar

I need advice on bodies and kits to go for

and is a 6x9roll back gonna work with a 65 or 75 lens well enough without loosing too much frame.

am i better off getting a slide on/off roll back.

I read this "The Sinar C /C2 ("C" for combination) is exactly what it sounds like ; the front standard from a Sinar F/f1/f2 used with the rear end of a Sinar P or P2. it is heavier than any of the Sinar F cameras, but substantially lighter than a P. I found this to be the best combination for both location and studio work. The p rear standard is much more precise and more delightful to use than the F/F1/F2 rear standard. The built-in depth of field & tilt/swing angle calculator is much more precise and easier to use than the simplified version used in the F cameras. It is also uses truly asymmetric tilts and swing axis, while the F cameras use simple base tilt designs on both standards."

if looking for a camera would you suggest this combination of any sinar F body combined with Sinar P Rear and is this something you see advertised or you have to make up the kit yourself...

any help welcome thanks for your comments so far

Leonard Evens
8-Sep-2004, 08:31
I am only an amateur, so my advice may not be too relevant. I had been using a Horseman Technical Camera with a 6 x 7 roll film holder for years, but about three years ago I got a Toho FC-45X 4 x 5 view camera. My camera doesn't have a bag bellows and also may not be quite rigid enough for professional architectural photography, so you are probably better off with what you have in mind. But I do have a few comments. First, assuming you don't use the square format, you are probably cropping your 6 x 6 to 6 x 4.5 or something similar. The ratio going to 4 x 5 would then be about 120/56 ~ 2.14. That means 40 mm with your Bronica is roughly equivalent to 85 mm with 4 x 5. Norman McGrath and other experts in (indoor) architectural photography say that extreme wide angle lenses are seldom of any use for interior photography. It might be that 90 mm would be more than adequate for you interior needs. A 150 mm lens or even shorter would certainly be a good normal lens.

For exterior architecture, there are always circumstances where you would like a wider angle lens. But of course you also have to worry more about light fall off---probalby requiring the use of a center filter---and wide angle "distortions", particularly when using rise/fall. I eventually got myself a 75 mm Grandagon-M, but in retrospect I think I would have been better off with a 72 mm Super Angulon XL. That lens has a fairly large image circle---allowing extensive movements----and seems favored by architectural photographers. The 65 mm lenses I looked at didn't seem to allow for much movement.

One thing I found surprising was that I had to be much more careful that my standards were parallel, when focusing on a building facade, with the 75 mm lens than was the case with my 90 mm lens. It appears that placement of the exact plane of focus is more demanding with wider angle lenses. This is something you may not expect from your 6 x 6 experience since it is less of an issue for smaller formats. So there may be something of a learning curve invovled in using wide angle lenses in 4 x 5, beyond the usual matters of learning about tilts and swings.

Andre Noble
8-Sep-2004, 08:33
James, you gotta consider seriously using the 6x9 Roll Film Holder primarily as this will help control film costs and is potentially more flexible in terms of selection of film. This also means you might reconsider your lens selection down lower more like 65mm, 58mm, 55mm, and perhaps even the 47 and 45 lenses.

Summary: If I had the money, I would suggest Schneider 110XL and Rodenstock Grandagon 55 for starters as these lenese can be useful to you both in the 4x5 and roll film format.

Regarding the Sinar, forget it! They're studio oriented.

For architecture, think Toyo G, Arca Swiss, Linhoff Teknikardan 45S. Toyo G's are gotten off EBay cheap. They are not prestigious European cameras, but are precise and give good bang for the buck, and accesories can also be gotten cheap off EBay.

About the camera stability, it's about having a largish, sturdy tripod, and monorail block-to-three way tripod head connection that's strong and stiff.

Finally as David Goldfarb says, "I'd hold off on the bino reflex viewer and decide whether you really need it" - Agreed!

Once you gather your money and make a well thought out decision, you'll never go back to the Bronica for architecture. And hopefully, your business will improve.

guillaume p
8-Sep-2004, 08:34
If your looking for a lightweight view camera able of lots of movements with short focal lenghts, you should take a look at the 'new' Arca-Swiss misura… You will find here a discussion that contains a link to a review of this camera.

james silverman
8-Sep-2004, 08:49
I read the pdf page on view camera website about choosing a large format camera and it says to consider your lenses before the body.

so far i have had a suggestion with a 6x9 roll back i should look into these lenses Schneider 110XL and Rodenstock Grandagon 55

and perhaps the 'new' Arca-Swiss misura could be of interest so i will look into the post..

thanks for your comments.You have to realise I am in Sweden and you cant just go and look at these cameras or try them out...

I want to do my research and then make a purchase and ship it.

so keep the comments coming I will read the new arca post now

Andre Noble
8-Sep-2004, 08:59
PS:

I have and use the Toyo 6x9 RFH that slips in under the ground glass. You have to really open the Gound Glass back WIDE to insert it. It's a coordinated effort but can be done smoothly if you have "the touch" But it also has great potential to tweak the camera out of place after you've set up the shot carefully if not done properly.

I really like the Toyo 6x9 roll film holder, but I've heard some photographers who had slight fitting problems on Non-Toyo cameras. Therefore, I would recommend the Horseman 6x9 variety which replaces the ground glass enmasse. This has less potenetial to dispupt the back of the camera, and is ensured of a more universal fit across camera brands.

james silverman
8-Sep-2004, 09:06
wow so much response..

guillaume p just suggested the 'new' Arca-Swiss misura so I just took a look at this site http://www.galerie-photo.com/misura_peronne_us.html

and it does look interesting but says this

"Probably the most controversial technical point is the lack of rear tilts and swings. What are the actual limitations of this lacking feature, as far as I am concerned in my work as an architecture photographer? The only combination of movements that the misura cannot provide are high amplitude indirect rises, for example to capture an architectural detail located well above the camera, while preserving full perspective control with a long focal length. All other kinds of movements where perspective control is important, based on tilts and swings, can be achieved by substituting rear tilt and swing angles by equivalent angles applied to front movements, combined with generous front+back movements of shift, rise and fall. For example, the classical effect of foreground enhancement obtained by a rear tilt can be achieved by combining a front tilt with rise and fall movements plus a global tilt of the camera."

since i am not used to thinking 5x4 or large format using terms like front rise and fall are not really sinking in much..what this guy is saying how important is it?

Andre Noble
8-Sep-2004, 09:09
The 'new' Arca-Swiss Misura…

With all due respect, sometimes we get caught up in "What's new" for newness sake. In my opinion, the Arca-Swiss Misura is a TOY.

However Arca Swiss does makes cameras more geared to day in and day out professional architecture, so don't be put off on the brand entirely by my comment above.

james silverman
8-Sep-2004, 09:15
guillaume p I read the post and it says you have one and you are using it

"I'm french, so I hope you will excuse my poor syntax… Well, I feel really peacefull since I know I have more money than brain… I just wonder how I can already talk with such no brain ! : ) I'm a misura user, and I want to tell that it fits exactly to my needs. Lack of rear tilt and swing is not critical for architectural photography (for the way in which one small brain works, of course : )). Some photographers work with medium format technical cameras that only have front rise and shift… The misura gives much more movements and, IMHO, is a perfect tool for architectural and landscape photography.

Greetings from France."

How long have you been using the camera?and what kind of stuff do you shoot?Im interested to know more about the camera..actually i havent looked into price of the body yet but still interested at this stage

John Cook
8-Sep-2004, 09:18
The essence of architectural photography is many movements. This demands a monorail camera. You can get by with a really maneuverable field camera like an Ebony. But its lighter weight isn’t necessary if you don’t plan to backpack it to the wilderness. And a field camera is much more awkward to work with than a monorail.

As to which camera, almost any will do. If you want light weight and low cost I would strongly recommend a Calumet/Cambo 45NX. A very strong, simple, no-frills camera which I have used since 1967.

The opposite end of the scale is a top-of-the-line Sinar F-1. (Their cheaper models are not so spectacular, having much plastic.) This is a frightfully expensive, well-made camera. It is quick to use, sturdy and precise. Only problem is making a profit/living on your work after you take out a huge, moosey loan to pay for it. Much like buying a Rolls Royce to use as a taxi or for your newspaper route. The exchange rate is such that most Swiss equipment falls into this category (La-La-Land) here in the USA.

A nice compromise between the two is a Toyo 45GII. I have used all of these cameras commercially for 40 years and the Toyo is my personal favorite for reasonable cost, fine workmanship, ease of use and sturdiness.

I think you will find that a bino-reflex viewer is unnecessary. Clients usually require Polaroids anyway. You will become accustomed to seeing things upside down within a few months. Like me, you will then be able to read wholesale prices upside down in catalogues at the photo store faster than the saleman is able to see them right side up.

As far as lenses, the 90mm wide angle and the 210mm slightly long, remain the first two lenses to buy, as they have been for fifty plus years. Purchase the rest as you have need for them. Ultra-wide lenses sound wondrous, but they tend to cause too much foreshortening, filling 90% of the frame with an ashtray on a table in the foreground. Not a good way to photograph a room. You will not require as many lenses for a 4x5 as you do for 35mm. Not sure why.

Andre Noble
8-Sep-2004, 09:23
Finally, this Norman
McGrath (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/082304016X/qid=1094656749/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/104-7970754-8089526?v=glance) Book should be your first investment. It has tons of equipment advice
from one of the world's best known achitectural photographers.

steve simmons
8-Sep-2004, 09:31
On the View Camera site is a lens comparison chart.

If you want to use a 6x9 back the 110 is essentially a normal lens. Not nearly wide enough.

To often people who suggest this or that camera and lens do not give any context for their advice. Some of the advice here is being given by people who obviously do not do architectural photography.

Get the McGrath book and one of the following

Using the View Camera that I wrote or User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone. both/either shoul be available from amazon.com.

Take your time. Go to Photokina in Cologne, Germany in late Sept to look at cameras and lenses.

steve simmons

John Cook
8-Sep-2004, 09:34
Excuse me. Got my numbers mixed up. Was talking about the Sinar P, not F. That much money always makes me tremble.

David Vickery
8-Sep-2004, 09:43
Hello James, I would stronly suggest that you get a camera like the Sinar, Arca-Swiss, or the Cambo SF series. Any camera that has the U shaped standards will require you to use recessed lens boards for the wide angle lenses. Flat boards are much easier to use, especially when you get in a hurry.

Andre Noble
8-Sep-2004, 09:48
"If you want to use a 6x9 back the 110 is essentially a normal lens. Not nearly wide enough."

Yes, but he first stated that he uses the 80mm and 40mm lenses on his Bronica 6x6. (He had choices on the Bronica as well such as 50mm and 65mm lenses, but he's apparently made his choice and is comfortable using the 40mm and 80mm.) Hence the recommendation for 110 XL and Rodenstock 55mm lenses for use on the 6x9 roll film - for which he has also stated a preference using for due to lower film costs of using roll rather than sheet film-and I concur.

But I admit, Steve Simmons has probably done 1,000 times more architectural photography in his life than I have, so take my suggestions in that light.

Ted Harris
8-Sep-2004, 09:54
James,



Now that you have read what is on the View Camera website you should also read what is on the main website here. Given what you have already posted, "too hot under the darkcloth" "not able to deal with composing and focusing upside down" you may want to ask yourself if LF is really for you and do it before you make an expensive mistake. I do not at all mean this to be a nasty comment, LF is not for many folk for exactly the reasons you mention, plus the weight and more complex (as opposed to SF or MF) regime of making images. OTOH once you decide to make the move you will likely be "hooked" once yu look at your first negatie or chrome.



As far as specific equipment recommendations I would first suggest that you call Midwest Photo in Columbus, Ohio and talk with Jim (no one else he is the ONLY one there who truly understands LF needs). You will need to wait until next week when he returns from Japan. I assume you have no problem with buying overseas since you have been talking with mrcad and Calumet, London. Midwest has a large supply of used equipment that is reasonably priced. You should be able to purchase an excellent quality used view camera for 500 USD. I suggest one of the Horseman rail cameras. Even the most basic has many geared movements and is precise and solid. Yes, taking a rail camera into the field is cumbersome and heavy but for your purposes makes more sense and will cvost you less to start than using a field camera.



Take small steps, the first view camera you buy does not have to be the last and if you shop well you are unlikely to lose much money (if any) when you sell it.

Leonard Evens
8-Sep-2004, 10:51
Perhpas I misunderstood his intentions. I thought he meant to use the view camera as a 4 x 5 camera, with the roll film holders for additional flexibility. If he intends just to use 6 x 7 or 6 x 9 format with roll film holders, he may be better off gettting a 6 x 9 view camera or even Linhof or Horseman 6 x 9 technical camera, with apporpiate lenses.

Rainer
8-Sep-2004, 10:54
James,

I had to laugh on myself, when i read your post. I´m doing it the other way around: I´m starting out in architectural photography right now and my work has not been published so far, but i´m fully equipped already. I´m working on a portfolio these days to start out.

My first purchase was an old Cambo SC 4x5", which i still use for landscape and other very "slow" kind of works, but it´s too bulky for carrying around when shooting architecture.

A few weeks ago i found a mint Linhof Technikardan 23 (6x9) at a local retailer here in Vienna, Austria. It´s the smaller version of the Technikardan 45. It´s a very well engineered camera, lightweight, ultra compact and it offers all kind of movements you´ll ever need. I´m very pleased with it so far. The only negative thing i can say about it is, that it only accepts (very expensive) Linhof Rollex backs.

Of course i can not do 4x5" with it, but to reduce costs i anyway only wanted to use rollfilm for the beginning. If there is a need for 4x5 i´m going to switch to a 4x5 camera and trade the TK23 in.

My choice will be Technikardan 45S then or Arca Swiss F-Line 4x5. I agree with Andre that Sinar is for Studio - too bulky, to heavy, ...

If 150mm is your long lens, i´d get a 75 as the short one. It allows some movements at 4x5. 65mm does not. If you´re going to shoot also rollfilm 65mm is a good choice. I use it and it´s a must have to me. Don´t know how much you´re willing to spend for lenses. I use following range and it´s a perfect collection to me for using on 6x9 and 4x5"(Cambo): Grandagon 45, Grandagon 65, Angulon 90, Symmer 150, Topcon 210.

It takes some time to get used to the upsidedown image. I would not buy a bino reflex. Some people told me it´s ok for longer lenses but does not work on shorter ones. I don´t like the darkcloth very much but there seems to be no satisfying alternative.

If you´re going to buy mailorder contact Mr. Greiner in Germany (friendly and NOT in a hurry when talking to you on the phone). He knows what he is talking about and you´ll find everything you need there. My experience buying some stuff there has been very satisfying. Tell him I recommended his business - maybe there will be a nice discount at my next purchases ;-)

Any helpful advice to get into business as an architectural photgrapher are highly appreciated!!!

(Sorry for my lousy English!)

Regards,

CG
8-Sep-2004, 10:56
A couple of thoughts...

1. You are asking questions that can only be answered by you through using cameras... What camera is best? I could recommend ten or twenty 4x5s well suited for wide angle photography. And my thoughts on what might be best would be at best questionable for anyone else. You will need to test, rent, borrow, travel to,,,and use, some cameras. Whatever it takes to handle and USE some LF cameras. I know that it is one of those chicken and egg conundrums; you need the experience to know what items you need to get, to get the experience, to get.... Ugggh. I suspect that LF is a take the plunge process ultimately.

2. Failing the chance to use cameras you do not own, buy a cheeeep wideangle camera - get your experience cheeep. My suggestion? The old Calumet Wide 4x5. It is relatively inexpensive, and purpose built for short lenses. It's short enough and light enough to be a good architectural starter camera.

3. In time you have enough experience to know what constellation of features matter to you most.

4. If you will be shooting 6x9 roll film, the Toyo 6x9 back for 4x5s works quite well for me...

5. For 6x9, you will need to get down to something like 65mm or shorter as a start for a wide lens.

6. Theoretic question...Are you sure you will save that much by shooting rollfilm? A good roll film back to fit 4x5 will set you back quite a few bucks, money that would have bought you a lot of 4x5 film.

Best,

C

Ralph Barker
8-Sep-2004, 11:00
A couple of points to consider, James, that I didn't see covered in the previous responses.

First is the ability to swap the standard bellows for a bag bellows. As you'll be using wide lenses for a good portion of the work, a bag bellows is almost essential to avoid the compression of the standard bellows that restricts movements. A bag bellows also solves the problem of needing recessed lens boards for wide lenses.

Second is the length of the monorail. The camera should come with, or allow you to switch to a short rail, so you don't have the excess rail poking you in the chest, or extending into the image. The Toyo 45C and 45GII, for example, come standard with a 450mm rail, but the standards can be easily moved to one of the shorter Toyo rails, 100mm, 150mm, or 250mm, as needed.

With respect to movements, I think you need to have all possible movements available. Both rear and front tilt is essential to maintaining subject geometry, while swing allows you to control the axial placement of the plane of sharpest focus. Shift (both front and rear), combined with rise/fall (again, both front and rear), allows compositional fine-tuning without having to move and reset the camera position.

A "basic" monorail, like the Toyo 45C, with a bag bellows and a short rail will get the job done, although many of the movements are "manual", not geared. The Toyo 45GII adds geared movements, and more weight and expense. The Toyo 45GX combines the geared movements with both center and base tilt - potentially handy if you're using a roll film back or even conventional 4x5 film holders with extreme movements. What I like about the Toyo line is its modularity - most of the components can be interchanged between the different models, allowing you to essentially "custom build" your own set of features.

With respect to the roll film back, my suggestion would be to avoid the models that slip under the regular ground glass. Their design requires that the roll film travel around a small-radius roller at the end of the holder. If the film is left in that position for any significant time, it will develop a (temporary) bend, which will affect flatness on the next exposure. A holder that attaches via a Graflok-like system usually has a more relaxed film path. There are "slider" backs available for the Toyo that incorporate both the ground glass and the roll film holder next to each other. Note, however, that the rear standard can get in the way of these units if the back is center-tilt only and extreme movements are required.

As to lenses, I'd suggest considering both focal length and maximum aperture. For interiors, for example, you may find that an f/5.6 maximum aperture is essential for ease of focusing, even though the price of a traditional 90mm f/8 might be tempting. Then, consider image circle. As others have noted, many of the "super-wides" have limited image circles, potentially making a 90mm lens more practical. A possible variation is the aspheric Schneider Super Symmar XL lenses that have large image circles. An 80mm SS XL and a 110mm SS XL might be a nice combination for 4x5, but would be long for 6x9.

David Karp
8-Sep-2004, 12:47
So much advice, so I will be brief.

I second talking to Jim at Midwest Photo Exchange. A good honest guy who will give good advice and who sells very good quality used equipment. He even talked me out of buying a camera he had because he did not think it would meet my needs. (He was right.)

I recommend buying an inexpensive monorail camera and working with it a bit. You can buy a Cambo SC or Calumet 45NX (same camera basically) used for very low prices right now. Either would work fine for architecture, especially if you buy the short (12") rail to go with your camera. Other used cameras would also be worth considering: Linhof Kardan, Toyo C, G or GII, Horseman, Sinar F2, and others are good cameras. I also recommend buying used lenses. You can put together a good used lens kit that you will not be able to distinguish from new. Again, talk to Jim. You can pick up a used kit, including a 75mm, 90mm and a camera for less than a new Arca Swiss F-Line. If you find you want an Arca Swiss or other view camera in the future, the lenses you buy now will work with it and you will have a much better idea of what you want after working with a camera for a while.

Here is a disagreement. I think that you need back movements for architecture. Back swings are very useful for correcting perspective, for example. Don't limit yourself by buying a camera with front movcments only.

Best of luck.

Joseph Dickerson
8-Sep-2004, 13:04
James,

Much good information above. This forum is amazing. I'd second the suggestion Steve Simmons made re: books plus the McGrath book.

Steve's view camera book is one of the best I've seen and I don't work for View Camera (in fact I work for a whole 'nother magazine).

You might also call Jeff at Badger Graphic Sales. I'm currently reviewing their M-1 view camera and it's a steal for the money.

I do a lot of historic architecture, California Missions, Light houses etc. with a Sinar F-1 and it works great and the weight is not too bad for field work.

Good luck,

JD

Henry Ambrose
8-Sep-2004, 14:23
I'm using an Ebony SW45 for my architecture work. It is a wonderful camera for wide to normal lenses. It has all the movement I need and not anything extra to get in my way. Prior to this camera I owned an Arca Swiss monorail and was very pleased with it. The Ebony is less than half the weight and equally versatile given the lenses I use, 58, 80, 110, 150, 180. Seventy percent of the pictures I make are with the 80 and 110 on 4X5 film. What the Ebony is NOT is a system camera. I can't add on parts and accessories to change the camera's capabilities very much, not like I could with the Arca. But I finally realized one day that I didn't need to accessorize, that for me photographing buildings did not call for every gadget and possibility in the book, and I'm much happier with the single purpose tool that the Ebony is for me.

The SW45 is also excellent with roll film backs if you want to shoot more frames. Personally I find that shooting 4X5 is not expensive because I don't shoot a lot of film. I can see what I'm getting on the ground glass and know for sure what I'm getting from the Poloroid, so I don't have to burn lots of film, and you're going to shoot Polaroid with either format. But I do use rollfilm for some work and its good when you need it. The other great thing about 4X5 over rollfilm is that I can scan it on a good inexpensive flatbed scanner and deliver GREAT digital prints and files, files big enough and good enough to cover any print publication's needs several times over. The combination of big film and a cheap scanner that generates files that are vast overkill is a very reassuring thing to have.

In terms of comparison to your 6X6 outfit using a 40 and 80 -- for your 4X5 I'd say get a 75 or 80 and a 150. Or if three lenses are possible then get an 80, 110 and 150 combination. (if forced to pare down that's what I'd keep) Whatever you buy I think you will find that a camera with movements is going to be a huge factor in your photography.

Norm Johnson
8-Sep-2004, 14:41
I wonder if also the comment about cost of roll film adapter vs using money for cut film. I have used and own both, unfortunately I have a slide in roll holder that is a pain to use sometimes. When I use roll the whole roll needs processing the same. For Black and White I may take two shots of same view and develop first sheet film normal and then hold off developing second sheet plus or minus. In the years I took thousands of news assignments with Graflex 45's this was almost standard for anything out of normal shots and amazing how the plus minus made some wonderful adjustments. That would maybe be something to consider.

The books mentioned above are very good and I might add also, The View Camera Techniqueby Leslie Stroebel which is a comprehensive book with lots of information.

You should be able to get some very good used camera's. For years I also owned a furniture photography studio and strickly commercial. We had a Burke James FlatBed 810 additionaly a 45 back and an ll14(some clients wanted 1114 contacts. These were rock solid and may be available used at a reasonable price. I had a Cambo at the time witht he sliding roll back in 4 by 5 size, thinking I would save money by using roll film. It all but collected dust(the roll back that is.

I am learning a lot on this forum. Do not claim to be an expert.

Finding someone who will answer your questions and not just want to grab your money and has knowledge is critical in my opion.

Norm

Ed Eubanks
8-Sep-2004, 17:24
Ok, first I admit that I skimmed a lot of the answers above, so I don't know if this has been covered completely or not. However, I want to comment anyway...

James, you mention several problems you've had in trying out LF cameras-- the stuffiness and heat under a darkcloth, difficulty of focusing upside-down, etc. I would add to that the fact that getting behind a LF camera when it is in certain positions/angles can be quite difficult, and impossible at times-- some of these times strike me as the sort of things an architectual photographer might encounter. You also mention the problem of the high cost of film-- certainly a factor, as well.
That said, the movements and benefits offered-- tilt, swing, shift, rise, etc.-- by a LF camera, plus the larger film size, are certainly important benefits for architectual work, since they allow you to accomplish perspective shift, etc. I will grant that LF cameras are especially useful in some circumstances.
However, let me suggest the Fuji GX680 medium-format camera system. This is a great animal that lets you shoot rollfilm in any size from 6x4.5 up to 6x8, and provides all of the front movements a view camera offers. You can check the specs at this link (http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartners/proPhotoProductGX680III.jsp).
It may not solve all of your problems (if, in fact, you need rear movements, for example), and it is expensive, but it may provide a workable solution.

Andre Noble
8-Sep-2004, 18:21
I'm a little suspicious of people who's first point of advice is to suggest that someone calls 'this' salesman or 'that' salesman.

Calling a salesman is the LAST thing you do AFTER you have done all your research first.

Frank Petronio
8-Sep-2004, 19:43
I suspect that "guillaume p" works for Arca-Swiss ;-)

Not having read all the above that closely, but having done a fair amount of architectural work, I can tell you that the two most over-rated lenses that most people tell you that you need are a super wide angle lens (like a 58 on 5x4) and the famous Schneider 110mm XL.

Frankly, if you're working for Dwell, they aren't interested in generic, crappy super wide shots like every beginner tends to do. Most people start off by shooting architecture with too wide a lens because that is what they think they have to do. Bull - use a "normal" or slightly wide lens.

Second, a 110XL costs over $1200 in the USA. You can buy a good 90/6.8 Grandagon for less than $500 used, and if you shop abit, you can find used 90/4.5s for around $800. Leaving you enough to buy a good 135 to 180mm normal, and maybe a longer 240 to 300.

The Arca-Swiss Discovery is a good value at $1299, and it does have full movements. Get the wide angle bellows in leather for it ($400) and replace the tripod mount with an Arca-Swiss style dovetailed plate.

The Arcas and the Wistas have very bright viewing thanks to excellent fresnels - I wouldn't monkey with a reflex viewer - just get a good darkcloth and "get used to it." Your brain will be inverting images in no time... A stiff drink beforehand helps the process.

Used Sinar Normas are wonderful cameras too, and cost half of the Arca. The truth is that nearly any mid-level 5x4 monorail "system" camera will get the job done - Cambos, Toyos, etc. even old ones.

Andre Noble
8-Sep-2004, 21:01
Also lens choice depends if you shoot in a big city like New York/L.A. vs. somewhere nice like Cape Breton. You won't be using a 240 very much in NYC.

Frank may be correct about the 55 and 110, especially the 110. But I still think a 'superwide' 65 or 55 is versatile for roll film backs where you can pop off three bracketed shots of a scene and move on.

Honestly, I think something wider than a 90 such as a 72XL mm, and of course a bright 90mm with large image circle are imperative for 4x5 architecture.

But I am a beginner who likes those crappy wide shots, and I shoot for myself only. Frank seems to know what he's talking about from experience.

neil poulsen
8-Sep-2004, 22:33
Norman McGrath's book shows him using a Sinar-F. But he currently uses an Arca Swiss Metric F and loves it. The metric or the standard Classic-F make excellent cameras for architecture.

If you go in this direction, get the leather bag bellows. I've had both, and I like the leather one better. Both give you 58mm through about 180mm or even 210mm. So, it's usually not necessary to change bellows when shooting architecture.

David Karp
8-Sep-2004, 23:27
Andre,

The advice was not to call any salesman. It was to call a salesman that I have dealt with many times, and who has given me good advice. I recommended him as someone to talk to as part of James's research, not instead of it. Jim at Midwest Photo is a knowledgeable large format photographer. He is patient with new users. In my experience he is willing to take some time to give advice to help you make the right purchase. The purchase may not occur during that first phone conversation. I have not found him pushy or so interested in closing a sale that he tried to sell me something that I did not need or want.

Contrary to some people's opinion salespeople can be good resources.

Struan Gray
9-Sep-2004, 04:48
I too am a Brit in Sweden, albeit a skinflint amatuer, so I thought I'd add a few local perspectives.

The only LF equipment available for rent is Sinar compatible. Lenses are always on Sinar boards, and last time I asked YFO at least were very unhappy with the idea of swapping the board. For me, that was a powerful inducement to go with Sinar.

Everything LF in Sweden is very expensive and hard to find. Some of the local distributors are ghastly to deal with. Full-fee, professional labs and equipment suppliers are available, but for me as an amatuer they are simply too expensive. There is no middle tier service for 'advanced amateurs' or pros who cannot just lump a whole bunch of miscellaneous costs onto the bill. LF for me meant a significant upgrade in hassle when dealing with labs and suppliers over MF.

Buying equipment and film from the UK or Germany will save you significant amounts of money. The only exceptions I have seen are the (very) occasional studio dumping it's LF gear on the SFF website small ads page (www.sfoto.se) and at the LP foto (www.lpfoto.se) twice-yearly auctions. If you can watch and wait you may pick up a deal that way, but if you want to buy now, go abroad.

I have bought from and been happy with MrCad, but they heavily overrate their stuff on the cosmetic side and I would be wary of buying a complete system from them without flying over to see it myself. I have had better luck with Ffordes (www.ffordes.co.uk) for quality, barely used stuff, and MXV (www.mxvphotographic.com) for good user gear at low prices. Bob Rigby (www.bobrigby.co.uk) are also nice to deal with, and sit in the middle.

If you're buying new there's no reason not to use Robert White (www.robertwhite.co.uk), who are very knowledgeable and affable on the phone. Their prices are among the best in Europe: for example, their prices on Fujinon lenses are almost half what the only Swedish retail source charges. Personally if I were buying a complete system I'd take adavantage of Ryan Air and arrange to go to Poole and fondle a wide range of gear.

Film I buy from Silverprint (www.silverprint.co.uk) if I need a small amount in a hurry. FilmArt in Germany (www.filmart.de) has better prices but their shipping charges make small orders uneconomic so I use them for a yearly freezer stocking.

For processing I send my film to Peak Imaging in the UK (www.peak-imaging.co.uk). I used Prolabbet (www.prolabbet.se) in Stockholm for a while, and was happy with their E6 6x6 processing, but they're still mail order for me, and their package prints and proofs from C41 were a disgrace compared to Peak.

Some Swedish insurers are odd about gear bought abroad, even within the EU. Even if you buy from someone like Robert White, you may have to have stuff valued by a Swedish vendor, especially if you buy secondhand. This may not be an issue if you have business insurance.

For my own use I bought a Sinar Norma. It's not 'yaw free' and only the focussing is geared, but it's wonderfully well-made, easy to use, and is fully compatible with current Sinar system components, including the digital goodies. It's more portable than the modern Sinar monorails. In the US they seem to be something of a cult item, with prices to match, but in Europe they are relatively cheap: £300-£600 for a basic camera depending on condition and accessories. If you're anywhere near Lund, you are welcome to come and have a play with mine.

james silverman
9-Sep-2004, 05:34
Im astounded by the response I got here I thought Id get 1 reply if i was lucky in a month.

so much wisdom however I know the score..I have to buy and try and until you try you dont know what you want or what you will feel comfortable with I understand you cant have everything in one camera..

Im prepeared to spend £1500 for a kit with a couple of lenses to get going.

It is a little overwhelming making a choice to buy a camera but through experience i know you get to know how to make the most of it.

I am quite aware these days that digital is pushing its way forward.

I have shot film and used top of the range imacon to get my results which as a freelancer is the only affordable way as labs charge a fortune for scans.

I also posses a digi camera Canon D60 which i do not consider a professional camera by any means however purchased it to get in the digital game and get to grips with shooting first generation digital. I have used it for weddings and portraits..however interiors the quality will not hold out.I actually bought the camera so i wouldnt need to scan my images and send out low res quicker but the framing is so different to my 6x6 that it didnt serve its purpose.

It feels a bit strange going backwards in time to achieve the best results however 5x4 is quality in comparisson to its modern brothers which havent quite reached the quality let alone the movements.

Anyway thanks for all comments.

Another Brit in Sweden..good to hear from you Struan Im living in Gothenburg and Lund is about 4/5hrs away. If you were around that would have been great. If you want to see my images in Sweden look at the covers of Konstvarlden Disajn and Arkitektur.Sweden is a tough market to sell to so most the time i dont bother.Im on the cover of Spaces an English magazine aswell this month...I was surprised Gert Wingardh the number 1 swedish architect prefered my images taken with my Bronica 6x6 over the great architectural photographer Ake E Son Lindman's 5x4 shots.

Anyway I must go large format so will explore all avenues..

thanks for comments

guillaume p
9-Sep-2004, 06:06
Frank, I work for myself and that's enough for me ! : )
I'm just a user (a happy user).

Most of time I do architectural work and my tool is perfect for the way I work.
My lenses are 55, 80, 110, 150. I will probably add a 210.
Why is it a good tool ?
For its compactness and light weight.
For the usable focal lenghts due to the flexibility of the leather below that alows to work both with 6X7 or 4X5".
For the quality of construction and the mechanical rigidity.

I stop ther, it's to difficult for me to exactly tell what I think ! I have to return to school… : )
The translation of the review on the french website galerie-photo.com is far more explicit !

Frank Petronio
9-Sep-2004, 08:41
Sorry to be such a snot. All I mean is that people buy ultra-wides on the assumption they are necessary for professional architectural photography. On occassion you do need an ultra-wide, but it is a far better investment (and good starting point) to buy a moderate wide and a moderate long lens. Looking through Dwell and Metropolis, you hardly ever see an ultra-wide shot...

The 110XL is wonderful, but a good 90mm at half the price is nothing to sneer at. It is a good wide without being too abstracting.

james silverman
9-Sep-2004, 08:51
if you have an issue of Dwell July issue p.114-117 you will see my images of a Swedish home. Id be interested if you thought that id used a standard lens as all images are shot with my 40ps Bronica lens.I think depending on how you compose your shots and the space you are dealing with ...what you want to achieve will show...

I dont know if you consider a 40 lens 6x6 super wide but i use it all the time.

Rainer
9-Sep-2004, 09:13
Henry Amrose writes: "The other great thing about 4X5 over rollfilm is that I can scan it on a good inexpensive flatbed scanner and deliver GREAT digital prints ... big enough and good enough to cover any print publication's needs several times over. The combination of big film and a cheap scanner that generates files that are vast overkill is a very reassuring thing to have."

I was quite surprised to hear that. Will a flatbed REALLY do the job for any print publication needs (Arch. magazines, ...)? I thougt, i should go for an Imacon at least. Which flatbed will do this? Epson 4870, Canon 9900F, Microtek 1800f, ...?

I don´t want to discuss, which one is better (there is tons of stuff in the forums). Just want know if quality really is good enough for print publications.

Regards,

Frank Petronio
9-Sep-2004, 09:52
Yep. At least with an Epson 3200. It just requires careful scanning and adjustment, but an awful lot of double page spreads start with scans from these scanners. The Imacon is indeed better, especially for marginally exposed film where you need to get all the extra shadow or highlight detail possible. But for most cases, going A3 @ 360 dpi - you'll do fine with am Epson.

40mm on a square Bronica!? Wow, you're really going to like 5x4 detail once you get going... A 72 or 75 will give you about the same coverage, but the 5x4 proportion gives you a little more feeling of width compared to the same coverage in 6x6. You may like the 80 or 90 length better...

james silverman
9-Sep-2004, 10:10
I have a question for you guys

I have had 2 transparencies back from a magazine with big purple and big yellow marks over the film what would you do in this situation?

any answers welcome

CG
9-Sep-2004, 14:50
Hmmm.

"2 transparencies back from a magazine with big purple and big yellow marks over the film".

Sounds like they just bought all rights at a very high price...

If they are otherwise folks you wish to get along with in the future, a phone call might be the way to start. If this was the last straw on top of a relationship you would have ended anyway, maybe a consise letter detailing what the images were worth in total - basically a bill for everything - and a clear expectation that you will be paid in full for total loss, and promptly. That kind of carelessness is inexcusable - I know it happens all too regularly, and that you are not the first to receive this kind of treatment, but in what other trade is it OK to wreck artwork that belongs to the artist??????? And, my assumption, it doesn't sound like they returned your transparencies with a check and an apology as they should have.

There are professional photographer's organizations that help with these kinds of messes. You might be able to get information from an advocacy group who's on your side.

Best luck,

C

Ole Dyre Hesledalen
9-Sep-2004, 15:11
Good advice in tremendous quantities here, James. As you you may gather from this, there are obviously as many and quite well reasoned choices in cameras and lenses as there are photographers out there. However, regarding your location in the world I would recommend that you look to Norway for your large format camera needs; used Sinar equipment especially is quite frequently put on the market here, often as somewhat complete kits, depending of course on what you decice you need in terms of lenses and accessories. My belief is that you'll be able to find a camera and two to three lenses well below your budget. I personally use a Sinar in P, C and F configuration depending on what and where I'm photographing. A good thing about these cameras is that they're modular; everything fits everything. More or less. The P is sturdy but somewhat heavy, the F lighter but a little flimsier and the C is a Combination (C, get it ?) of these two. As Sinar cameras are probably among the most widely used LF cameras in our corner of the world, parts and additional equipment are not very hard to find.

E-mail me and I'll be happy to share with you what I can find available around here.

Kirk Gittings
10-Sep-2004, 01:03
James,

Virtually all I have done for the last 30 years is architectural photography. I am being blessed this year with a 30 year retrospective book being done about me called Shelter from the Storm: The photography of Kirk Gittings. I have also done allot of work for those same magazines over the years and many more. The important issue is a camera which can use very wide lenses without a recessed board. That narrows the field allot. No field cameras will work without a hassle because of the protruding bed, though I used a Tachihara for many years. That leaves monorails.

I am a believer in simple, cheap, well made tools. I don't much care about impressive cameras when something old and cheap will do the job. Believe it or not I do architectural work for magazines and books all over the world and I use an old (like 40 year old) Calumet Wide Field and have for probably twenty years. As a matter of fact a book out of the UK this coming spring that you may see called The New Country House which has squite a few of my images. I picked up a used Wide Field in good working order for a back up at Universal in Chicago a year ago for 150.00 bucks! It will do a 47mm lens on a flat board with plenty of movements. To get good use out of longer lens (210 up) though you need extension boards. Calumet still has a good supply of parts for them.

I use both roll film in Calumet/Cambo C2N backs and 4x5 holders in the camera. I use a 47mm, 65mm, 90mm, 120mm, 150mm, 210mm and 305. For long telephoto images I use a 70's vintage Hassleblad. These days I primarily shoot roll film so that I don't have to load film holders in motel rooms after long days shooting. My primary lens for the roll film (6x9) is the 65mm for the 4x5 it is a 90mm. 120 film is so good these days that I have had 0 complaints from magazines or any clients and it is considerably cheaper and more convenient. Mostly we are shooting Velvia 100F or NPS and scanning it on a 4870. Both films are very forgiving in mixed light situations and the 4870 is more than adequate for magazine reproduction if you know what you are doing.

Best of luck.

Warren Williams
23-Sep-2004, 20:50
I would like to provide a minority report. I am an architect who recently returned to large format photography after a 20 year hiatus. My own criteria is portability - lots of lugging equipment around to get the rignt angle onthe building etc. Also I photograph in cities and it is simply not safe to stick your head under a dark cloth for extended periods of time - great way to have equipement walk away at the least. I use front rise and a 90mm lens frequently and occasionaly some shifts to avoid reflections but I have used other movements much less. Also, I didn't want to spend teh money and add the weight of a 5.6 wide angle so my ability to rise is only about 35mm max anyway (which is more than enough for most shots)

I firmly believe in starting out as cheaply and as lightweight as possible with a system that will still get most of the job done. I chose to get a Shen-Hao field camera, bag bellows, reflex viewer, and 90,150 and 300 mm lenses. If I were to use a roll film back I would probably add a 65mm lens. I even treated myself to a carbon fiber tripod and the whole system goes into a medium sized backpack (not the tripod of course) and I can carry it around buildings all day if I need to. If you use this approach Aand after using the system you can't get the shots you want go to a monorail camera and sell the Shen Hao (easily done since there is a high demand for 4X5 field cameras). Whatever camera you use make sure it accepts a bag bellows . People will tell you they are not needed with 90mm lenses but they make life much easier as you aren't fighting the bellow's stiffness when using front rise.

Finally, large format is very different than MF and you very well may not like it. I have used shift lenses on medium format (on a Pentax 6X7) They are big and expensive but they do work within the limits of only having one focal length to rise with.. Good luck Warren Williams