Stupid darkroom question #307 - tray size

[Matthew Cordery]

Ok, I have to ask this as I haven't found the answer yet and don't have access to a darkroom at the moment to test it. I'm busy planning my own darkroom for me new condo the matter of printing trays was obviously on the list of things to get. My question does have a basis in personal history though. The question is, do 16x20 trays fit 16x20 paper or do you (or should you) have the larger tray size? I asked this because the one time I tried to print 16x20 paper in a rental darkroom, the paper didn't fit in the tray though I was assured it should. It'd be nice to be able to use 16x20 trays as I am trying to figure out how to organize the shower area to fit larger trays. I can't build a sink bigger than about 54" long and 33" deep. I suppose I could build a double tier system if I needed to use 20x24 (two trays on top tier, two trays on the bottom). Anyone have any other clever ideas? Maybe there are some other sizes of trays (18x20)? Obviously, I've never had to put one of these together before so questions abound. :-)

[Bryan Willman]

In my experience, trays will hold paper up to the rated size, but just barely. So 16x20 paper should indeed lie flat in solution in a 16x20 tray, but with zero clearence. This is a pain. So common (and wise) practice is to decide what the "vast majority common size" print will be, and get trays "one size larger".

So, handling 11x14s in a 16x20 tray works out well, 16x20s in a 20x24 would be OK. Things bigger might call for some other kind of processing anyway.

If you are building the sink, why not also build the trays? I seem to recall that some books on darkroom building that explained how to build a sink gave advice on how to build a tray as well. Remember, it's just a plastic tray. Tap plastics or the like could make them in arbitrary sizes, though might be pricey.

Be VERY CAREFUL about a two tier scheme. Trays are light. The water based solutions in them are not. It's quite easy to arrange for the whole thing to fall down, which makes quite a mess.

Also, remember that you'll have to fill and empty the trays, and filling and emptying a heavy tray at an awkward height will be a pain.

And Matthew - why do you want 4 trays? You need a tray for developer. You probably want a tray for fixer. You'll want trays for toning. But there's no particular reason that the print has to be horizontal in the stop bath. Or the washer.

Why not have a 20x24 tray, followed by a 20x24x4 (say) "trough" - a tray on end. You fill it with stop bath (which is cheap, so you don't care if it takes lots). You dunk the print in it for 30s or so, pull it out, and put it in the fix. You put a spigot on the trough, so you can empty it without having to pick it up.

Actually, it would seem that everything other than developer could easily be done this way.

Jobo used to sell a kind of "tank" meant for this, called "nova" I think, but they were set up for color, and pricey. But might be worth checking into.

Prints out of the fix go in a bucket, or a washtub, or something. Then they get toned, etc. in a batch.

I used to store a bunch of prints in a bucket, then carry them to the washer in another (not light tight) room. You could also do a 2nd fix step, etc.

[John Cook]

A 16x20 tray, depending upon brand, measures about 19x23 outside. It is sufficient to process 16x20 paper if you are careful. I prefer the Cesco brand with the dimples on the bottom which prevent prints from sticking.

Of late, I have been making prints on half sheets of paper, which then equal the Golden Mean 1:1.6 aspect ratio (and nearly the 35mm format). Print sizes then become: 5x8, 7x11, 10x16 and 12x20. Very pleasing horizontals for landscape work.

For odd-sized trays, consult your local restaurant supply for bus pans. My store has piles of them by the front door for a buck or two each.

Should you wish my sage advice on building a fiberglass-over-wood sink, shoot me an e-mail. For a friend, I recently wrote down my experiences (and mistakes) in making three sinks over thirty years. It is still on my hard disk. Too lengthy to post here, but I'll be happy to e-mail it to anyone interested. I have become an expert on what not to do.

Bottom line: make the largest sink you possibly can. Even 48x96 isn't too large. Especially if you get into toning and hypo-clear. Lots and lots of trays.

[Leonard Evens]

When I was doing considerable darkroom work, I found the easiest way to handle 16 x 20 prints was in a large tube processor. That required smaller amounts of solutions. I had got a Beseler tube to do color prints, but I found it useful also for b/w prints.

[Matthew Cordery]

Bryan, This is why I'm asking! Lots of people out there with good thoughts and different ways of looking at things who've already gone through this process. Just trying to think of different ways of doing things has made me rethink a couple of things and you've given me a few more. Thanks for that. :-) John, I'll most definitely be shooting you an email.

[Gem Singer]

Hi Matthew,

The bathtub/shower that I have converted into a darkroom sink measures 58 inches wide (between the tile walls) and is 29 inches deep (I just checked the measurements). I constructed a tray rack out of one inch diameter schedule 40 PVC piping, using one inch elbows and tees at the corner joints. The rack fits the tub space exactly, and stands at work- top height, I am able to use three Paterson 16X20 trays, side by side, with a slight overlap of the tray lips, for developing my 16X20 prints. It's a tight squeeze, and I have to be careful not to slop the solutions from tray to tray, but so far, it seems to work just fine.

If you don't plan on making prints larger than 16X20, Paterson 16X20 trays will do the job. They are made in England, are readily available at B&H, not extremely expensive, and can easily accomodate 16X20 prints. Also, the larger the tray, the more solution required to cover the print. A 20X24 tray, filled with solution, is quite heavy, making it awkward to drain and empty. The 16X20 trays require about three, or four liters of working solution to cover 16X20 prints.

I have used this same PVC tray rack in several rented apartments and a condo that we owned during our travels around the country. I merely modified it to fit the various sized bathtubs we encountered. PVC cuts easily with a hacksaw, and the parts fit together tightly. No need to use PVC glue. No need to build a sink if you can make use of an existing bathtub.

[otzi]

Do you need 16x20 trays if space is at a premium? Is most of your work 8x10 or other? If large prints are less often have you concidered a single tray system?

http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm

gives ideas and suggestions for small spaces.

[ronald moravec]

My rack for 16x20 trays holds three trays. Made like a step ladder but with the steps going full length front to back and from solid plywood for full support. Use water proofing on the wood.

I tend to build heavy, but never need to repair anything.

[John Sarsgard]

I love Cesco light trays. They are plenty rigid, so you can empty them without their flopping around and dumping chemicals on you, and there's plenty of clearance in a 16x20 tray to process 16x20 paper.

[Matthew Cordery]

Eugene, interesting idea with the PVC. Do you have a picture of your PVC rack? Might be an interesting thing to do as an alternative in combination with a single tray processing system.

[William Demere]

See:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=98&product%5Fid=3476

There is a 25 x 19 x 1 tray for $32.

You can probably get one locally at any washing machine dealer.

Best,

William

[Gem Singer]

Hello again Matthew,

I have been thinking about writing another illustrated article for this website showing how to build a tray rack, out of one inch PVC pipe, that fits over and above a bathtub. However it is way down on my list of projects to do and will probably be far into the future. Unfortunately, the little digital camera is no longer working, so I cannot make any new pictures with it.

Meanwhile, take a look at the article I wrote about film developing on this website. If you look at the photographs carefully, you can get an idea of how the PVC rack is being used to support the16X20 trays as they are being utilized for loading the film racks and for holding the plastic dishwashing tub that I use for tempering the tanks. (www.largeformatphotography.info/alternative-developing/ ).

[John Kasaian]

If space is really a premium, you could use a Unicolor processor, using the same drums for paper as you would for souping sheet film. About $20 or so plus shipping on eBay. Of course you wouldn't get to see the image come up under a safelight----you could develop in the tray and switch to Unicolor for the stop and fix, then you'd only need room for one tray. The 16x20 print drums show up on eBay every so often. Just a thought.