No love for Horseman?

[PureQuill Photo]

As a old guy re-entring the world of LF I have been checking out my options for a 4X5 to shoot landscapes with.
Much to my delight I find cameras that in 1981 I could only dream of now with in my budget.:)
Linhof is still forever out of reach...Some of us will never get to own a Rolls Royce.
But others Like Sinar , Swiss Arca & especially Horseman are down right affordable.
Especially when you consider that the $2k digital camera one buys today will be worth next to nothing in 10 years!
Obviously Deardorf & Linhof are more than just cameras they are an investment/commodity for collectors.(Similar to Lica’s)
Is the quality & availability of parts & accessories of Horseman just not up to par with Sinar & Arca Swiss hence the price difference?
Or is the deal a Horseman, you just have to be willing to take the extra time & effort to put together a proper system?
Part of me thinks I should be practical & buy one of the brand new chinese field cameras or a used Wista or Tachihara.
But another part of me always dreamed of owning a swiss 4X5 with Zeiss glass.
Am I just being nostalgic & silly?

[Daniel Stone]

Use what YOU like/want/need

I've owned Sinar, Arca Swiss, Deardorff(currently), Cambo, Calumet, and Kodak view cameras. All have produced good pictures, and all have produced enough "duds" in total to fill a few albums full!

A camera is JUST a box. But each box has a different way/method of getting to that same end exposure/shot. Some have axis tilts, some have base tilts. Some have both. Some will let you use multiple sizes of film back on the camera(modular systems like Sinar, Arca, Cambo, etc..)

If you like Horseman, use it! We're not the one photographing here, you are. You'll be the one to tote it(well, that's unless you have a caddy), use it, shoot with it, etc...
Only YOU can make the final decision of where you'll put your money.

My preference for a monorail system? Sinar. Cheap as chips for the quality you're getting(as long as it's fully working, duh), parts are quite plentiful, lensboards are super cheap, adapter boards are available easily, etc... My 2nd would be for Arca Swiss(much more $$$), as long as it's equipped with the "orbix"(axis tilts) feature. My mind can't work with base tilts. But that's me...

Horseman was a big name BACK IN THE DAY. Loads of people used them. 'Loads', because view cameras were used much more 'back then' than they are today in the photographic world.

Recommendation:
Write down a list of EVERYTHING you want to have in a kit
Write down WHERE you'll plan to go, and how you plan to get to those places
Write down the capabilities/features you want in your (to be) camera

Base your decision on what the [above] answered questions.


FYI, the only cameras (I) see these days as any potential "investment" would be the Phillips line of cameras made over the years. Check out recent ebay sale prices to see what I mean...
A camera is merely a means to an end. A piece of the puzzle. A tool. A blunt object that can be wielded any way you want to use it.

-Dan

[djdister]

To amplify Daniel Stone's response, you first need to determine your requirements or needs, before worrying about brand names. So, your first task is to determine if you need a FIELD camera or a MONORAIL camera. If you are unsure about what this decision might mean to you, you have a lot of reasearch to do. But in short, this decision gets to the heart of how "transportable" the camera outfit will be, as well as how much you will be able to manipulate your plane of focus, control converging lines, and etc.

A FIELD camera is more transportable, more self-contained when you fold it up, but generally will have a shorter (or non-existent) range of tilts, swings, and bellows extension. A field camera will probably have a smaller range of lenses available, or will be limited due to its shorter bellows extension. This type of camera would be more appropriate if you intend to hike/backpack to different sites.

A MONORAIL camera is generally more cumbersome to transport, but will have a wider range of tilts, swings and longer bellows extension, therefore it will be be usable with a wider range of lenses. This type of camera would be more appropriate if you are doing studio work, or short-distance (drivable) shooting, and would also be the best selection for architecture shots.

That said, you will find that many (but not all) of the brands will have both field camera models and monorail camera models - for example, you can find Horseman cameras in field or monorail types, just like you can find Linhof cameras in field or monorail models. So focus first on your needs (how you intend to use it), before fretting over brand names.

[BradS]

Lots of good advice already....but, I'll toss a few more logs on that fire.

(in my mind):
Horseman is the Japanese Sinar...just like Wista is the Japanese Linhof and Bronica is the Japanese Hasselblad.
That's not saying anything bad about Horseman. In all of the examples above, the Japanese offering has technological improvements at a lower price.

As others have said, first figure out what yu want to do with the LF camera...do you want to take it out into the field. If so, then I personally would recommend one of the lighter weight, wooden folding field cameras. If your going to stay in the studio, then a monorail might be better suited to your needs (but for portraits, very few movements are needed and so, we're back to a wood field or tailboard camera).

The Sinar F2 is Sinar's concept of a field camera...and while, it is a whole lot easier to pack it into the field than a big Toyo monorail for example, it is no joy....the Sinar F, F1 and F2 are not terrible rugged either. The early models are chronicly broken and best avoided altogether. They do not instill a lot of confidence perched up there on top of your tripod either. The Sinar Norma and the Toyo monorails feel like they could tumble out of the back of a truck on the freeway and after they stopped rolling, could be picked up, dusted off and used just fine....the F2...not so much. I suspect that the Horsemans are similar to the more fragile Sinar F...but, have never owned one. (

You'll find more, much more parts and accessories for a Sinar than for Horseman. Sinar seems plentiful and cheap today.

I've never owned an Arca Swiss...they look nice but it seems like parts - like lens boards are far more scarce than for Sinar for example.

If you're thinking of humping a LF kit into the field - even if your thinking you'll stay within a 100 yard radius of the car, the weight and bulk gets to be a big deal...at least for me it was. The difference between having a six pound camera and one that weighs just four pounds may not seem like much in the grand scheme of things but, for me it is the difference between taking the camera with me and leaving it home in the drawer.

There are so many other factors to consider....and it would be difficult for me to enumerate them all here....and what is important to me is perhaps, less so to you or anybody else. I can't stand the Chamonix for example, others love them. Shen Hoa seems to think every 4x5 camera needs rear rise....I disagree. Both make excellent cameras...just none of them are really right for me.

I've bought and sold a shit load of LF cameras in my ten years of using LF. One thing is certainly true: there is no perfect LF camera. They all involve some kind of compromise. I've settled on a few I can live with in peace...and it is good :).

[Alan Gales]

I own a Sinar P. Like said earlier, there is just so much stuff easily available at a reasonable price for Sinar here in the United States.

Another advantage of Sinar is the Sinar Shutter. If you like using old lenses in barrel and want a shutter, you just can't beat it.

[Oren Grad]

FWIW: lens boards and bellows are generally interchangeable between Sinar and Horseman monorails.

Anyway, you'd have to pay me to lug my Sinars outside the house. When I'm on the move it's field cameras all the way. As always, YMMV.

[Vaughn]

I like the 4x5 Horseman Woodman field cameras. Light, simple, well-made. Certainly lasts a lot longer than the 4x5 Tachihara with student use.

[Richard Wasserman]

My travel kit is a Horseman 45FA and 3 lenses. It is very compact, lightweight, and when folded, being metal more or less bulletproof.

[Jonathan Barlow]

Sinar cameras and accessories are plentiful in the US because they were used by the majority of professional studios. They were never inexpensive when new (For example, a Sinar P2 8x10 was $13,000 in 1995.) but when the studios sold off their used equipment they flooded the market.

[Tin Can]

I really like my Horseman and I have a few. My 4x5 HD Field is simple. This week I am using a very good condition 4x5 L monorail, it is very sturdy, fully geared and works like butter. I can loosen the rail locks and simply push the 3 rail movements quickly into position. So does a Sinar, but this Horseman is smoother and quicker. The tripod adapter has both 1/4" and 3/8" which I really like. Horseman 4x5 monorail bellows and lens boards are the same as Sinar.

I sold my Sinar kit here, last month, because I prefer Horseman. It wiggles less.

I also use Horseman 4x5 frames adapted to old wood studio cameras so I can easily switch lenses among the lot. Sinar frames don't work as easily for that.

Horseman is very well made, but parts are impossible, I buy cheap ones to make better ones.

[PureQuill Photo]

Horseman is very well made, but parts are impossible, I buy cheap ones to make better ones.

Thats a good enough reason for to stay away from Horseman.
Thanks to everyone who posted for all the input!
PQ

[StoneNYC]

Also, if it makes you feel better, the TOYO brand is basic a GRAFLEX brand, they bought all the patents, so it's not REALLY Japanese ;)

My TOYO45a field camera is just awesome, don't go nostalgic, get the camera you think will have the features you need to get the pictures you want, forget the rest.

[Anthony Oresteen]

I LOVE my Horseman 6x9 backs! They work great with my Cambo 23SF.

[Tin Can]

The only way you would need parts for 4x5 Horseman L is if you threw it against a brick wall and even then it may survive. Sinar are delicate in comparison.

But have it your way.

Just when do you plan to buy something?



Thats a good enough reason for to stay away from Horseman.
Thanks to everyone who posted for all the input!
PQ

[Tin Can]

Yes Horseback 6x9 backs are wonderful, I just got an old style one, from Thebes here, that is a match for my Horseman Press 6x9, quality imho to match Linfof.

I am cowering from incoming Linhof attacks. I do have some very old and very good Linhof, now we are really talking heavy duty, Linhof Color Kardan 8x10 or 5x7, nothing like it, not even those flimsy Horseman...lol


I LOVE my Horseman 6x9 backs! They work great with my Cambo 23SF.

[PureQuill Photo]

The only way you would need parts for 4x5 Horseman L is if you threw it against a brick wall and even then it may survive. Sinar are delicate in comparison.

But have it your way.

Just when do you plan to buy something?


Easy availability of parts is very important especially if I have only 1 or it's my LF primary camera.
I can’t see me dragging 2 view cameras out on a landscape shoot.
I plan to buy as soon I find a great deal on the right gear.

PQ

[StoneNYC]

Get a new Chamonix 45N :)

[Tin Can]

Fair enough, Horseman would not be the camera for you.

I was just showing my 'Love for Horseman!'

Good luck!



Easy availability of parts is very important especially if I have only 1 or it's my LF primary camera.
I can’t see me dragging 2 view cameras out on a landscape shoot.
I plan to buy as soon I find a great deal on the right gear.

PQ

[John Kasaian]

There is no shortage of LF cameras to choose from. Unless it is a complicated design, and most field cameras aren't, parts availability shouldn't be an issue (Elmer's wood glue works real good;) )
I suggest other issues are more critical---
Do the bellows support the focal length lenses you'll be using?
Can the front standards handle the wieght of the lenses you'll be using?
Is it light enough to go on any hikes you have in mind?
Can it "travel" or is it basically a studio camera?
Does it lock down good and tight or does it wobble?
Are lensboards available (or makeable?)
I think these are more important considerations than the brand name on the decal.
I'd get a 5x7 Nagaoka if I could find one(and if I could afford it!)

[EdSawyer]

Horseman stuff is great, I see no shortages of parts for those. Esp. Compared to say Arca. You can buy a whole camera, L-series, for $200-300!

[Tin Can]

Would you share your parts source, I don''t need much, but my HD needs a focus lock lever, it works with the screw snug, but I would like a lever...

And that is all I need for any of my Horseman.


Horseman stuff is great, I see no shortages of parts for those. Esp. Compared to say Arca. You can buy a whole camera, L-series, for $200-300!

[Taija71A]

Would you share your parts source, I don''t need much, but my HD needs a focus lock lever, it works with the screw snug, but I would like a lever...

And that is all I need for any of my Horseman.

____

Part No. ???

Horseman Parts... Are still 'readily' available directly from Komamura Corp. and elsewhere...
I recently had 'no problem'... Finding a spare Focus Lock Lever (albeit for an 'L' Series Camera).
--
Best regards,

-Tim.
_________

[G.A. Landrum]

After graduating from photo school in the early '90's(has it been that long) I was a very busy photo assistant working for the big commercial studios in town. Many used Sinar P2's but maybe just as many used Horseman LX's, I believe the model was. My university had Sinar F1's for rent with a low purchase price at graduation, so I had bought into the Sinar being the best propaganda from the start. Like I said many studios used P2's so everything was pretty familiar right off the bat. At first I wasn't so sure about those using the Horsemans, everyone knew Sinar was the best, right. The more I worked with them the more I realized that they may have been better. I recall them being heavier, not that the F1 and P2 are lightweights, but the Horseman has L standards that are much beefier than the Sinar standards. Several of the studios were known for beer and liquor and we shot huge quantities of 8x10, my sense was that the Horseman required less worry about pushing the rear standard when inserting 8x10 holders, not that we/I really ever had problems with the P2 8x10 doing that, but the Sinar seemed less sure when inserting holders.

I recall that the LX was the top of the line and their were some lesser models, I don't recall the differences at this late date.

The L cameras can be taken apart and laid flat in a Zero Halliburton case(was the rage in the '80's and into the '90's)due to the L standard design.

I remember one studio had an optical bench rail that was one long solid piece of aluminum, it was three or four feet long and was rock solid. I feel the lens shade for the Horseman is superior than the Sinar's bellows clips and filter rod arrangement.

There was an architectural photographer that I worked with briefly that bought into the idea of a heavy camera atop a somewhat lightweight Gitzo. The person figured the heavy camera would push the tripod down and make it more stable. To this day I don't know what to think of this concept. This photographer had traded Sinar equipment in for Horseman cameras just for this.

As great as I think the Horseman L's are, they are really studio cameras due to the weight and the pointy corners from the L standards and rail unless your a commercial photographer with assistants to assist with everything.

All this being said, I use Sinar and always have since I graduated and purchased my first F1 through the university rental purchase program. That's why those programs exist you know, to get you early in your career.

G.A.

[Jonathan Barlow]

A seller in Japan just listed a Horseman LE on eBay for $398 + $90 for shipping, and a Horseman 45FA for $758 + $65 for shipping. I don't know the seller, or anything about Horseman cameras; I just happened to see them while browsing.

[PureQuill Photo]

@ G.A Thanks for a great post lots of good insight!
@ Jonathan thanks for the heads up I will check those cameras out!
PQ

[G.A. Landrum]

@ G.A Thanks for a great post lots of good insight!PQ

My pleasure.

Good luck.

[gregmo]

I own a Horseman 4x5 LE. It was my first LF camera. Very easy to operate & really smooth. For being solid & we'll built, it's still easy to transport & hike with. I paid $450 including shipping for the camera & Schneider 210mm apo lens about 1.5 yrs ago.

[Joshua Dunn]

PureQuill,

I shoot Sinar but have a L series Horseman because they use the same lens boards. I used it for one project and haven't used it since. They are sturdy but very heavy. PM me if you want to buy one and I'll send you some photos.

-Joshua

[djdister]

I have the Horseman 45FA, which I think is a great field 4x5 camera. It is quick to setup, has precise movements, folds up just as quickly (can fold up with a "normal" lens on), and is very well protected when closed up. The only limitations are max focal length of about 250mm (unless attaching the rear extension bellows), and lack of a rangefinder (so no hand-held shots). All in all though, it is very solid and portable. Here's a shot of mine, with the rear piece for the binocular reflex viewer attached.

108129

[Armin Seeholzer]

I have the Horseman 45FA, which I think is a great field 4x5 camera. It is quick to setup, has precise movements, folds up just as quickly (can fold up with a "normal" lens on), and is very well protected when closed up. The only limitations are max focal length of about 250mm (unless attaching the rear extension bellows), and lack of a rangefinder (so no hand-held shots). All in all though, it is very solid and portable. Here's a shot of mine, with the rear piece for the binocular reflex viewer attached.

108129

I have the Horseman HF the prior model of the FA and I got it with an extension tube on the front including a APO Ronar 300mm and as a rangefinder I'm using the Linhof one, but Horseman had also one in here PGM!
Its a wonderful camera, for not to big hands in my opinion!

Cheers Armin

[Tin Can]

I am not familiar with a Horseman rangefinder except on a VH-R. Can you show an example?


I have the Horseman HF the prior model of the FA and I got it with an extension tube on the front including a APO Ronar 300mm and as a rangefinder I'm using the Linhof one, but Horseman had also one in here PGM!
Its a wonderful camera, for not to big hands in my opinion!

Cheers Armin

[StoneNYC]

I have the Horseman HF the prior model of the FA and I got it with an extension tube on the front including a APO Ronar 300mm and as a rangefinder I'm using the Linhof one, but Horseman had also one in here PGM!
Its a wonderful camera, for not to big hands in my opinion!

Cheers Armin

Wish I could get an extension tube for my toyo, it has (or will soon as I'm converting it) a linhof front standard so all of that is hard to find (cheap).

Is that a compendium for the ground glass? I love that idea

[Tin Can]

Stone, make one, 'invention is the mother of necessity' said somebody else. Epoxy, a tube and two lens boards should get you somewhere, if epoxy makes you nervous find a welder.

I find half the fun of LF is improvisation, said the guy who just cut Mammo X-Ray film into 2x3 chunks for faster experimentation. I can develop 8 little pieces faster to evaluate what I am doing.

What am I doing? Oh ya, contrast studies, of course...mumbling...


Wish I could get an extension tube for my toyo, it has (or will soon as I'm converting it) a linhof front standard so all of that is hard to find (cheap).

Is that a compendium for the ground glass? I love that idea

[Jeff Keller]

You should take a look at the Canham cameras. They are very portable and have wide movements without changing parts in the field. The MQC57 has a long bellows if you like longer focal lengths, but still works well with short focal lengths.

[Armin Seeholzer]

I am not familiar with a Horseman rangefinder except on a VH-R. Can you show an example?

No its not like a VH-R its just a Linhof viewfinder on the camera's flashshoe and I use the stops on the rail for different distances!

Cheers Armin