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vinny
6-Jan-2014, 11:53
So I've got some low contrast negs (lots of them) that don't print well even at "grade 5"* (170M) on my color head with vc fiber (kentmere glossy). I'd like to stick with ansco 130 developer. Will using something like grade 4 fomabrom do better?





*it has been said that you can't obtain gr5 or even gr4 using a colorhead. Both my 4x5 and 10x10 enlargers use Chromega colorheads.

Drew Wiley
6-Jan-2014, 12:19
Just project thru a deep blue 47 filter. But you will need to add just a pinch of white or green light also (yellow OK), to get DMax on Kentmere (you need at least token exposure of both emulsion layers, even though most of the density will be achieved on the high-contrast blue-sensitive layer). It's doubtful that you'll find any graded paper out there nowadays that will have more contrast.

Eric Biggerstaff
6-Jan-2014, 13:04
You can selenium tone the negs at 1+1 for 5 minutes and increase the contrast by about +1. This might allow you to print them more easily.

ic-racer
9-Jan-2014, 06:06
So I've got some low contrast negs (lots of them) that don't print well even at "grade 5"* (170M) on my color head with vc fiber (kentmere glossy). I'd like to stick with ansco 130 developer. Will using something like grade 4 fomabrom do better?


I'm not familiar with that developer so I can't comment on that. I have had good results with Dektol and Ilford Multigrade developer in terms of producing GR 5 with Omega heads. You have confirmed the magenta filter totally covers the light supply at 170. ie the filters are zeroed correctly per the manual.
You have checked all the other usual things like light spilling around the image area of the negative, lens is clean and stopped down at least 2 stops, safelight is safe, no stray light leaking from the head onto the paper etc?

You might want to get a non-calibrated step wedge. It is inexpensive and really useful when diagnosing contrast issues.

bob carnie
9-Jan-2014, 06:51
Vinny

I would first off get a small pack of grade 4 and 5 graded paper , also test with some flash if the 5 gives you too much contrast.
Then go to the larger paper
look at nigeldickson.com the black and white portraits specifically , they are done with grade 5 and flash by Nigel.

regards
Bob

vinny
9-Jan-2014, 07:32
Bob, I can find grade 4 (freestyle sells some foma). Does anyone make grade 5 anymore?

I'm going to try the blue filter first since I'm pretty sure I have one around.
Ice-racer,
This isn't an issue with my enlargers. I don't have any issues with the majority of my negs but there are plenty I underdeveloped or shot things like snow on snow under overcast conditions so those negs need all the help they can get.

And yes, my colorheads go to 170.

bob carnie
9-Jan-2014, 08:14
Not sure about the grade five, the digital paper I use is a Grade 4 galerie emulsion, I do not know if even that comes in cut sheet.

You may want to look into the Slavic papers , I used a grade 4 Slavic for lith printing and it was incredible, they may make a grade 5

Jim Noel
9-Jan-2014, 08:31
So I've got some low contrast negs (lots of them) that don't print well even at "grade 5"* (170M) on my color head with vc fiber (kentmere glossy). I'd like to stick with ansco 130 developer. Will using something like grade 4 fomabrom do better?
Yes, the Grade 4 paper will most likely produce greater contrast. Even when new, the Chromega filters would only produce a density range up to almost 3 1/2. As they age, their density decreases resulting in even lower contrast. How do I know this? Some years ago I felt limited when using a Chromega for VC printing so I did a rather exhaustive series tests which resulted in my eliminating the color head and installing a VC-CLS head designed for the job.



*it has been said that you can't obtain gr5 or even gr4 using a colorhead. Both my 4x5 and 10x10 enlargers use Chromega colorheads.

Kirk Gittings
9-Jan-2014, 09:00
Selenium tone the negatives first.That will give you an extra grade of contrast at the start.

Andrew O'Neill
9-Jan-2014, 09:03
So I've got some low contrast negs (lots of them) that don't print well even at "grade 5"* (170M) on my color head with vc fiber (kentmere glossy).

Try changing papers? I used Kentmere years ago and found its contrast range very limiting, especially at the high end. All I could get out of it was a grade 3.5.

vinny
9-Jan-2014, 09:09
I plan on toning the negs as well. I've tried other vc papers but these negs are FLAT!

see attached scan (which is worse than the print)

ic-racer
9-Jan-2014, 10:35
I use lith paper developer to print negs like that.

bob carnie
9-Jan-2014, 10:40
I was thinking the same.

I use to use outdated Elite paper with a monster exposure and though lots of artifacts a really cool look.

I use lith paper developer to print negs like that.

Steve Sherman
9-Jan-2014, 11:03
I plan on toning the negs as well. I've tried other vc papers but these negs are FLAT!

see attached scan (which is worse than the print)

In my experience selenium toning the neg is way overrated. 1/2 grade at
very best. Try a paper developer such as Edwal G. Or get some sodium hydroxide. Careful its lye and add small amounts. This will cool off the image quite a bit but is more effective than selenium toning neg. last resort sepia tone the neg using Kbr and Pot Fericyanide mix as the bleaching agent. This is a non reversal process so use as last resort
2 cents

Kirk Gittings
9-Jan-2014, 11:26
Steve, I am not saying just tome it but tone it and use other paper fixes. FYI, I tone a well fixed and washed neg in straight Selenium (yes I said straight) for a couple of minutes and get more than 1/2 a grade.

Andrew O'Neill
9-Jan-2014, 13:48
Toning of the negative will only be beneficial if you have suffient density. The suggestion of using a lith paper is a good one. For what it's worth Vinny, I kinda like the high key look of it.

Erik Larsen
9-Jan-2014, 13:59
You might try a highlight mask on lith film, fairly easy to do. Another option would be to dupe the film and expand the development. You can use lith film for this as well and use dektol to develop under a red safelight. Might take some experimenting in the initial exposure, but lith film is cheap.

Drew Wiley
9-Jan-2014, 14:57
If someone is going to the trouble of masking, it is simple enough to make a contrast-increase mask, that is, if one is already familiar with general masking. Otherwise,
it's a fairly steep learning curve. But lith film is a very bad option for that kind of thing.

Erik Larsen
9-Jan-2014, 15:15
If someone is going to the trouble of masking, it is simple enough to make a contrast-increase mask, that is, if one is already familiar with general masking. Otherwise,
it's a fairly steep learning curve. But lith film is a very bad option for that kind of thing.

Lith film is no problem for vinny's snow scene, it's just adding density to the highlights. Nothing magical or difficult about it. It's not a Ciba mask where you have to worry about colors, it's just adding some density where needed. No need to make it difficult.

vinny
9-Jan-2014, 15:51
At some point (when I don't have toddlers running around) I'll try masking not now. As I said, this is one of many negs which I've yet to print the way I wanted

Steve Sherman
9-Jan-2014, 16:03
Steve, I am not saying just tome it but tone it and use other paper fixes. FYI, I tone a well fixed and washed neg in straight Selenium (yes I said straight) for a couple of minutes and get more than 1/2 a grade.

Kirk, It's all in the eye of the beholder. Andrew makes a good point about without enough density then the selenium will have little effect. Hard to tell from scan but if the densities are all up on the straight line then the proportionate gain will be less. As Kirk, I use selenium straight to tone negs with the added benefit of saving the selenium toner (from pyro negs) and using it to tone prints which imparts a touch of gold rather then the usual red / brown tone associated with selenium toning and silver gelatin prints.
As Kirk said real gains are realized when a number of small gains combine for a significant improvement in the direction one strives for. Cheers.

Drew Wiley
9-Jan-2014, 17:30
Same reason why it's difficult to make a lith mask ... if the whole neg is very thin, with very little differentiation between the highest and lowest densities, then lith
film is going to view the whole damn thing as almost clear, and itself be incapable of differentiating much. You really need a film capable of a very very gentle
straight line right off the toe, but that's not going to be a very practical answer here either.

Kirk Gittings
9-Jan-2014, 17:33
Kirk, It's all in the eye of the beholder. Andrew makes a good point about without enough density then the selenium will have little effect. Hard to tell from scan but if the densities are all up on the straight line then the proportionate gain will be less. As Kirk, I use selenium straight to tone negs with the added benefit of saving the selenium toner (from pyro negs) and using it to tone prints which imparts a touch of gold rather then the usual red / brown tone associated with selenium toning and silver gelatin prints.
As Kirk said real gains are realized when a number of small gains combine for a significant improvement in the direction one strives for. Cheers.

Actually I doubt I've ever tried it with a negative like that.

Mike Reyburn
9-Jan-2014, 17:34
I use a Ilford Grade 5 MG filter when I need more contrast than is available using the maximum 170M on by enlargers (Durst M70 & LPL 4550XLG). The 31 step tablet image on the right shows at least a grade higher contrast vs the adjacent 170M tablet.107995

vinny
9-Jan-2014, 18:14
Mike, I tried that on my Chromega and to my surprise, it didn't give me more contrast.

Greg Blank
9-Jan-2014, 18:24
Old Chromega heads ended at 150CC, Newer ones ended at 170cc. Typically you would need to add more Magenta to get to get a grade five. The only way to know if you can get a grade five is to print a step wedge and read the contrast curve with a densitometer. I have seen many examples of old Forte paper that using dektol would produce a grade less than the stated grade. I would say Fomabrom
could be a better start. The thing to figure is what is the contrast index of the negative,....that is the best thing to establish.


So I've got some low contrast negs (lots of them) that don't print well even at "grade 5"* (170M) on my color head with vc fiber (kentmere glossy). I'd like to stick with ansco 130 developer. Will using something like grade 4 fomabrom do better?





*it has been said that you can't obtain gr5 or even gr4 using a colorhead. Both my 4x5 and 10x10 enlargers use Chromega colorheads.

Drew Wiley
10-Jan-2014, 14:36
Like I said, just project thru a deep blue 47 or 47B separation filter - that will hit the high-contrast blue-sensitive layer of the paper selectively, much better than
maxing out your magenta setting. At that point, you're only limited by the hypothetical grade range of the paper itself.

Greg Blank
11-Jan-2014, 07:21
I suppose that will work, I think either way its a long exposure on the paper. Knowing what grade the paper is capable of and what CI the negative has, are two benefits.


Like I said, just project thru a deep blue 47 or 47B separation filter - that will hit the high-contrast blue-sensitive layer of the paper selectively, much better than
maxing out your magenta setting. At that point, you're only limited by the hypothetical grade range of the paper itself.

vinny
11-Jan-2014, 07:26
Greg, the exposures with the #47 filter won't be long since the negs i'm dealing with are typically thin and the Chromega head has so much extra power, especially in White light mode.