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sanking
2-Jan-2014, 16:35
I am interested in information about lenses in the 45 mm to 65 mm range with a circle of illumination of approximately 4 7/8" to give a circular image on a sheet of 5" square film. And by that I mean a natural circle from the lens, with no filters, filter rings, etc. I have a 65mm Super Angulon that almost does this, but the circle is just a tad larger than 5".

Sandy

Ian Greenhalgh
2-Jan-2014, 17:06
65mm Angulon probably as the image circle is a bit smaller than the Super Angulon.

lee nadel
2-Jan-2014, 17:50
hi put black tape around rear element then you can adjust your image size.

sanking
2-Jan-2014, 18:05
Should have also mentioned that I am looking for good sharpness right to the edge of the circle. Circle of a 65 mm Angulon would definitely be a bit less than a full five inches, but even stopped down there is lots of loss of sharpness even 4/5 of the way out from the center. I am looking for something like you would get with a Biogon at the far edges of the image circle.

One could adjust the image size in many ways by vignetting it, but I am looking for a lens that throws a natural circle as is, with no filters, filter rings, etc.

Sandy

William Whitaker
2-Jan-2014, 18:14
Seems like most any lens designed for 35mm or even 2 1/4 might do what you want. (My somewhat naive answer.)

Dan Fromm
2-Jan-2014, 18:26
Sandy, you're asking for a lot. Ian's suggestion -- 65/6.8 Angulon -- and the equivalent Optar/Raptar might do. The big question with them is how far out the illumination goes. There are similar 65s for 6x9 from Leitmeyr and there's a host of UK-made ~65s that claim to cover 100 degrees, much more than you want.

You might consider a 53/4.5 Biogon. It should cover ~ 115 mm cleanly and cut off around 120 mm, not quite as much as you want, and the cutoff is abrupt. This based on shooting a 38/4.5 Biogon on 2x3. I'm sorry that I don't have a 53 to ask for you. Schneider claims the 53/4 SA covers 115 mm, doesn't say where the illumination stops. A 60/6.8 Dagor might do, but they're quite uncommon.

I just asked my 60/5.6 Konica Hexanon and 47/5.6 SA whether they'll do for you. I doubt it, wide open both put visible light at the edge of a 4x5 GG. 45/9 CZJ Goerz Dagor doesn't have the circle you need, nor does the 1.75"/2.8 Elcan.

The 65 and 50 Mamiyas and the lenses mentioned above are the only w/a lenses for 6x9 in your focal length range I can think of. I'm sure I missed some. The Elcan's actually for 6x6, doesn't come close to covering 2x3.

Oren Grad
2-Jan-2014, 18:27
First thing that came to mind was Sam Wang's home-brew 5x7 with the 50mm Mamiya Press lens - but I know you've seen that. Other possibilities: 47mm Super-Angulon (non-XL), maybe 58mm Grandagon, 65mm Angulon or 65mm Raptar.

Some of the new Rodenstock and Schneider digital lenses in the 45-65mm range have specified image circles at wider apertures that would seem to fit, but I wonder about the circle of illumination. My 90/5.6 Apo-Sironar-Digital illuminates way more than its specified 125mm.

Oren Grad
2-Jan-2014, 18:29
Should have also mentioned that I am looking for good sharpness right to the edge of the circle. Circle of a 65 mm Angulon would definitely be a bit less than a full five inches, but even stopped down there is lots of loss of sharpness even 4/5 of the way out from the center. I am looking for something like you would get with a Biogon at the far edges of the image circle.

Oops... just saw this. That's going to be difficult.

Corran
2-Jan-2014, 18:50
I noticed that my 75mm Biogon cuts off pretty hard at the edge of the IC. I don't have a 5x7 though to test with though - but it's sharp right up to the extremity. I think it'd be about wide enough.

This is probably at f/16 so you'd get a harder cut if you stopped down more. This is just a frame I accidentally pushed too far, or the corner of it anyway:

107564

StoneNYC
2-Jan-2014, 18:54
Doesn't this all depend on how close you are focussing?

sanking
2-Jan-2014, 19:13
Oren,

Yes, I am very familiar with Sam Wang's 5X7 round camera, and he uses a 50mm Mamiya Press lens. It does exactly what I want, but is single coated lens and has quite a bit of flare.

And yes, Dan, I am asking a lot. I want almost a full 5" circle with a relatively modern design that will be sharp all the way to the edges with good contrast. Unfortunately lens specifications just don't tell me exactly what I need to know!

Sandy

sanking
2-Jan-2014, 19:15
Doesn't this all depend on how close you are focussing?

I would be using the lens for landscape work so would be focusing at from three feet or so to infinity, depending on subject.

Sandy

Oren Grad
2-Jan-2014, 19:47
Thinking again about Sam's Mamiya Press lens... I wonder whether the 65/8 Fujinon for the G690 series cameras might do the trick. I'd guess that the inherent coverage of the glass is larger than you want, but that the mount probably gives a sharp mechanical cutoff. The question would be whether it's circular or whether there's a rectangular baffle built into the lens barrel. It includes a shutter, though you'd need to rig some way to trigger it via the camera-end linkage.

EDIT: It occurs to me that there was also a 50 for the G690 series, but it's hard to find and probably expensive.

Dan Fromm
2-Jan-2014, 19:50
Oren, I betcha the lens can be reshuttered.

Sandy, I'm sure there's a reason that you don't want to vignette when printing, if you're printing. Are you going to print, and if so why not vignette them?

Oren Grad
2-Jan-2014, 19:57
And another afterthought: perhaps the 50 or 65 for the Fuji GX680 series would do. With those you'd need to trigger the built-in electronic shutters, or perhaps remount (expensive???) as Dan suggests.

sanking
2-Jan-2014, 20:25
Dan,

I like the look on the edges that you get with the lens itself. See, for example, the hard line in Corran's shot with the 75mm Biogon. The look is much softer if you vignette the lens, say with a filter or filter holder, and I don't want to emulate it with PS.

65 mm would be wide enough for me, perhaps some of the lenses made for 6X9 technical cameras with movements might give slightly less coverage than a modern Super Angulon? But I guess those are also going to be single coated like the 50 mm Mamiya?

Sandy

Oren Grad
2-Jan-2014, 20:34
65 mm would be wide enough for me, perhaps some of the lenses made for 6X9 technical cameras with movements might give slightly less coverage than a modern Super Angulon? But I guess those are also going to be single coated like the 50 mm Mamiya?

Sandy, the 65 for the Horseman technical cameras covers too much - 152mm @ f/22. The 75 is specified for only 120mm if you don't mind going a bit longer. But I've never used those lenses and can't tell you how sharp the cutoff is or how far sharp rendering extends across the circle.

Dan Fromm
2-Jan-2014, 20:37
Sandy, if that's what you're after rent or buy a 53/4.5 Biogon and give it a try. My 38 cuts off cleanly at 84 mm. Here http://sdrv.ms/1g4GngU is a shot taken with it on 2x3. The image on film is 81 mm long.

Michael Clark
2-Jan-2014, 21:36
I have used a 100mm Componon- s enlarging lens with 4x5 sheet film mounted on a speed Graphic. It had a complete circular image within the neg and illumination at edges were cut off nicely. Can't remember how sharp the edges where.

sanking
2-Jan-2014, 21:59
Sandy, if that's what you're after rent or buy a 53/4.5 Biogon and give it a try. My 38 cuts off cleanly at 84 mm. Here http://sdrv.ms/1g4GngU is a shot taken with it on 2x3. The image on film is 81 mm long.

Dan,

If the specs are right the 53 mm Biogon would work for me, with an image circle of 115 mm. The 47 mm Super Angulon might also work, but if the image circle is really 123 mm as I have seen in specifications it would be just a tad too wide for my 5X7 holders. Does anyone know the exact width in mm of 13X18 cm holders?

Sandy

Bernice Loui
2-Jan-2014, 23:22
There is also:

58mm Graflex XL Grandagon, not sure, but was intended for 6x9

45mm Grandagon, image circle ~ 131mm

35mm Grandagon, image ircle ~ 128mm

38mm Super Angulon XL, ~ 137mm

65mm Angulon, ~ 110mm


There should be others used for 6x9 that should have similar image circle. Testing will need to be done to determine image fall off qualities of each lens to discover how well these might meet your needs.


Bernice



Dan,

If the specs are right the 53 mm Biogon would work for me, with an image circle of 115 mm. The 47 mm Super Angulon might also work, but if the image circle is really 123 mm as I have seen in specifications it would be just a tad too wide for my 5X7 holders. Does anyone know the exact width in mm of 13X18 cm holders?

Sandy

Carsten Wolff
3-Jan-2014, 07:34
My 58mm Omegon has a rather abruptly vignetting image circle of a tad over 100mm, perhaps even over 4" (from memory) with excellent definition right into the corners.

It now lives in my 6x9cm "Purple Haze V" scale-focus camera, but if you have a bit of patience, I can put it onto my 5x7" and check. It sounds though as if this would perhaps be just a tad under your needs, as you want about 4 7/8" (just under 124mm) IC.

It is a modern Biogon design, (single coated, but with good contrast and flare resistance) and has a Series VII filter thread (54mm). You'd also need to perhaps re-mount the lens into a normal (Copal 0 size) shutter, unless you're happy to hack the original one.

As an aside: This lens often vignettes even on 6x9 with Series VII filters in place, as it was meant to be used on 6x7; for that reason and in order to be able to use my metric filters, I lightly machined out an old Kodak Series VII to VIII adapter: It thus now does 6x9 even with a (67mm) filter in place- and with excellent image quality. However, one would not be able to use movements.

ic-racer
3-Jan-2014, 07:50
4 7/8" = about 124mm

The Horseman 75mm lens (for VH-R) has a circle about 120mm. Even if you don't use it for this project, that lens is one of the sharpest wides in the VH-R/6x9 family. I use that lens on 4x5 and it crops the corners dramatically and looks good to my eye.

Carsten Wolff
3-Jan-2014, 07:56
ic-racer: you'd not get a circular image on 4x5 though. Do you crop the 4x5" or leave it?

ic-racer
3-Jan-2014, 08:04
ic-racer: you'd not get a circular image on 4x5 though. Do you crop the 4x5" or leave it?

Correct, just the corners are cut off on 4x5, but on 5x7 it would probably show the whole circle based on the math.

StoneNYC
3-Jan-2014, 11:37
Didn't someone mention simply adding some black foil or gaffers tape or better some duvatyne cloth to the edge around the rear element? This would cause a falloff of light wouldn't it? Mimicking the edge of lens falloff? Or was that answered and I missed it?

Dan Fromm
3-Jan-2014, 12:30
My 58mm Omegon ... is a modern Biogon design, (single coated, but with good contrast and flare resistance) and has a Series VII filter thread (54mm). You'd also need to perhaps re-mount the lens into a normal (Copal 0 size) shutter, unless you're happy to hack the original one.

Interesting Biogon concept. The 58/5.6 Hexanon/Omegon and 60/5.6 Hexanon lenses for the Koni-Omega are, respectively, sort of f/5.6 (8 elements in 4 groups) and sort of f/8 (6 elements in 4 groups) Super Angulon clones. Super Angulons are nearly symmetrical, have a single meniscus at each end. f/4.5 Biogons are much less nearly symmetrical, have 8 elements in 5 groups with a single meniscus at one end and a pair of meniscii at the other. See http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63826 for links to the K-O lenses'cross-sections.

That Super Angulons are Biogon clones is a common misconception.

Metric conversion: 4" = 101.2 mm.

sanking
3-Jan-2014, 14:59
I am surprised at how few options there are for exactly what I need.

1. Image circle of 4 3/4" (121 mm), or just slightly less.
2. Modern lens with multi coating.
3. In shutter.
4. Sharp to the edge of the field.
5. 45mm to 65mm focal length.

The 53 mm Biogon looks like it would do the job optically, but this is a huge lens, expensive, and not in a shutter! The 47mm Super Angulon MC looks almost perfect, but perhaps a tad too wide! Nothing else in the 45mm to 65mm range, with the caveats above, seems to come close?

Sandy

Ian Greenhalgh
3-Jan-2014, 15:12
Doesn't surprise me, you need to compromise, drop the MC requirement for instance. A lens like the Angulon 6.8/65 really doesn't need MC.

Oren Grad
3-Jan-2014, 15:14
Nothing else in the 45mm to 65mm range, with the caveats above, seems to come close?

I think the only other pond to go fishing in is the digital lenses in shutter for technical and view cameras. Many of these have seemingly small image circles, but those are specified and optimized for relatively wide working apertures to avoid diffraction losses, and conceivably when stopped down could have image circles that are closer to your target. But those will be very pricey.

Dan Fromm
3-Jan-2014, 15:15
The 53 mm Biogon looks like it would do the job optically, but this is a huge lens, expensive, and not in a shutter!

Sandy

What are you thinking of? The 75/4.5? Look at what I just found: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2043519.m570.l1313&_nkw=biogon+53&_sacat=625&_from=R40

StoneNYC
3-Jan-2014, 15:25
What are you thinking of? The 75/4.5? Look at what I just found: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2043519.m570.l1313&_nkw=biogon+53&_sacat=625&_from=R40

That link doesn't take me to the 75 f/4.5 it's lenses in the thousands.... My 75 cost me $600

sanking
3-Jan-2014, 15:35
Ian,

I am in full compromise mode!! And I agree that a lens like the Angulon with only four air-to-glass surfaces does not need MC, but at the far edges of the circle an Angulon would be too soft for what I want to do. I know this from experience in working with the 90mm and 120mm versions of the lens.

Would love to try the 75mm f/5.6 Topcor as a compromise to a slightly longer focal length. If KEH had one in stock I would order it and give it a try. But the only other one I see for sale is in Japan.

Sandy

jb7
3-Jan-2014, 15:51
Just too small for the 5" dimension, as far as I can remember- my first 47mm. I didn't have it very long-
I can't remember what the performance around the edge of the circle was like, though I do remember quite a sharp cutoff. If you are interested in resolution out to the edge, then some mechanically induced vignetting of a wider covering lens might be safer, as suggested earlier.

I checked, I couldn't find anything on the e-research site-

The Super-W-Komura 47mm f/6.3.

I'd imagine the 47mm f/8 Super Angulon would come close too, but it might be possible to research that through Schneider's obsolete lens section online...

Dan Fromm
3-Jan-2014, 15:52
That link doesn't take me to the 75 f/4.5 it's lenses in the thousands.... My 75 cost me $600

The OP doesn't want a 75. I don't know where he got the idea that a 53/4.5 Biogon is (a) a gross monstrosity like the 75/4.5 and (b) unavailable in shutter.

I take no responsibility for the state of the market, have only once seen a credible offer of a 53 for as little as $600. And that was ten years ago at a camera show for a beat-up lens in a very iffy Compur. Good ones aren't cheap, alas.

My 75, that I eventually sold, was a gift. Funny world, innit.

Roger Hesketh
3-Jan-2014, 15:56
Hi Sandy

Earlier this evening I recommended a Dallmeyer 60mm, 2 3/8 inch lens, to Ian to use on 2x3. I am surprised to find myself recommending the same lens to you for your job.

I have had a little play and it is difficult to know for sure as I do not have a 5x7 camera that will allow infinity focus with such a short lens but I am pretty sure it throws an image circle of roughly the size you need.

The problem you have is for any lens you choose the image circle will vary depending upon the focused distance and the aperture used. Even if the camera is fixed focus at the hyperfocal distance which would seem reasonable given the focal length of the lens chosen. The aperture selected will still affect the image circle diameter.

Now if you use a barrel lens and front mount it onto a leaf shutter you can use the aperture of the lens to control exposure and depth of field and the aperture of the shutter to control the diameter of the cone of light which emerges from the back of the lens. You can use this aperture to cut off the peripheral rays and ensure your lens throws the appropriate sized cone of light to achieve the image circle diameter you desire no matter what the focused distance is or the aperture used.

I have a bunch of these T.T.& H. and Dallmeyer Wide Angles which I front mount via an adapter onto a Compur shutter. Up to 5 1/4 inch they all take the same flange size. By chance the other week whilst having a play I discovered it was possible to front mount directly without an adapter onto a Flash Supermatic shutter that I had lying about.The threads are different but I managed to get a couple of turns on it which was sufficient to secure such a light lens.

Only single coated I'm afraid but baring that all your other conditions I think are satisfied.

All the best

Roger

StoneNYC
3-Jan-2014, 17:14
The OP doesn't want a 75. I don't know where he got the idea that a 53/4.5 Biogon is (a) a gross monstrosity like the 75/4.5 and (b) unavailable in shutter.

I take no responsibility for the state of the market, have only once seen a credible offer of a 53 for as little as $600. And that was ten years ago at a camera show for a beat-up lens in a very iffy Compur. Good ones aren't cheap, alas.

My 75, that I eventually sold, was a gift. Funny world, innit.

Ahh I misunderstood your previous post, sorry.

I can't decide if I like my 75mm, it's certainly big, but I do appreciate the bright GG :)

Corran
3-Jan-2014, 21:18
There was a 53mm Biogon in good shutter, slightly rough cosmetically, for sale on eBay for $595 last month. It made the rounds 3 times but it seems the seller has not relisted it. I was thinking of buying it myself.

So, very doable for that price, even today.

ic-racer
3-Jan-2014, 22:52
Here is an example of that Horseman/Topcor 75mm lens on 4x5 format:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/b794c007-8979-4676-a9fa-ecc84d459462.jpg

Bernice Loui
5-Jan-2014, 22:03
One more idea, may or may not work..

Century Precision Optics (now part of Schneider) makes add on wide angle conversion lenses. They range from 0.55x 0.75x. It might be possible to used one of these lenses in front a longer focal length lens that produced the circular image desired then add a wide angle conversion lens to produce a wide angle effect.


Bernice

sanking
15-Jan-2014, 12:18
After reviewing the options I decided to acquire a 75mm Topcor for the round image on 5X7" film. The 75mm Topcor does exactly what I want, i.e. gives a clean circle on 5X7" film in my holders when the camera is focused at about 4-5 feet (which is as close I a would plan to focus), and the circle is very nice and sharp right to the edges of the image. The 75mm focal length is just a tad longer than what I originally asked about, but this lens focuses nicely on my camera without the use of a recessed bellows, and allows the use of both tilt and shift, and rise and fall, which would not be possible with a focal length of less than 65 mm.

Thanks for all of the helpful suggestions. I have a trip planned soon where I plan to the 75mm Topcor with a Nagaoka 5X7 to do a project in round.

Sandy

Michael Alpert
15-Jan-2014, 15:12
I am surprised at how few options there are for exactly what I need.

1. Image circle of 4 3/4" (121 mm), or just slightly less.
2. Modern lens with multi coating.
3. In shutter.
4. Sharp to the edge of the field.
5. 45mm to 65mm focal length.

The 53 mm Biogon looks like it would do the job optically, but this is a huge lens, expensive, and not in a shutter! The 47mm Super Angulon MC looks almost perfect, but perhaps a tad too wide! Nothing else in the 45mm to 65mm range, with the caveats above, seems to come close?

Sandy

Sandy,

A year of two ago I was trying to find a lens that would do exactly what you want. I was limited by my minimum bellows length, so a 47xl would not work. A 58xl with a center filter worked pretty well, though the image circle grew considerably as I focused closer than infinity. Right now what comes to mind is that you could use a lens-hood screwed into the rear element of a lens. You may need to machine the hood to shorten it. I know this isn't what you are asking for, but it's an option that is relatively inexpensive and might work for you. Please let us know where you land.

StoneNYC
15-Jan-2014, 15:17
Sandy,

A year of two ago I was trying to find a lens that would do exactly what you want. I was limited by my minimum bellows length, so a 47xl would not work. A 58xl with a center filter worked pretty well, though the image circle grew considerably as I focused closer than infinity. Right now what comes to mind is that you could use a lens-hood screwed into the rear element of a lens. You may need to machine the hood to shorten it. I know this isn't what you are asking for, but it's an option that is relatively inexpensive and might work for you. Please let us know where you land.

Read all posts before you comment, it's already been solved :-p

sanking
15-Jan-2014, 16:19
Michael,

Thanks for the suggestion. In fact, I already have a 65mm Super Angulon set up so I can screw in filter holders to vignette the image. This works fine, but for reasons of "purism" that may or may not make much sense I would like to get the round image from a lens without having to mechanically vignette it.

Sandy




Sandy,

A year of two ago I was trying to find a lens that would do exactly what you want. I was limited by my minimum bellows length, so a 47xl would not work. A 58xl with a center filter worked pretty well, though the image circle grew considerably as I focused closer than infinity. Right now what comes to mind is that you could use a lens-hood screwed into the rear element of a lens. You may need to machine the hood to shorten it. I know this isn't what you are asking for, but it's an option that is relatively inexpensive and might work for you. Please let us know where you land.

hoffner
16-Jan-2014, 06:22
Sandy,
have you tried putting a flat ring of blacked paper right on the glass of the front lens cell group? Alternatively, you could try such a ring on the back of the front cell or the front of the back lens cell. You could be surprised at the effect. I know you want the purist solution but a flat paper ring hidden in the lens could maybe find your mercy too.