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View Full Version : I want to change from a 4x5 view to a 4x5 folder...recommendations



stradibarrius
17-Dec-2013, 19:21
I currently have a nice Sinar F2 but it is just too bulky so I don't ever take it out. I would like to get a 4x5 folder that doesn't cost a fortune. I would love to have a Chamonix or Ebony but I am not going to spend that kind of money.
I would like some recommendations on something that is good but inexpensive. Maybe one of the Graflex or Speed Graphic??? I have 90mm, 150mm 180mm, 250mm and 300mm lenses if that makes any difference.

I don't ever use tons of movements. I don't need the viewfinder that some of these cameras have, I want to focus from the GG. A rotating back would really be nice.

Suggestions???
Thanks

Jon Shiu
17-Dec-2013, 19:30
Super Graphic. Folds up compactly. Has Front rise/fall, tilt, swing, shift and rotating back. Pretty cheap.

Jon

tgtaylor
17-Dec-2013, 19:31
I'm a Toyo man so the only thing that I could recommend is the Toyo-Field 45AX/AII (~5lbs) if you want movements (front and back) or the Toyo-Field 45CF (~3.4 lbs) if you can live without back movements.

I also own a Toyo-View Robos (12 lbs) and a Toyo-View 810G. The Robos I bought first and although it is a terrific camera I also thought that it was bulky and heavy... until I got the G and after hauling the G around the Robos became "light as a feather" and compact! But I also had the same experience moving from 35mm to 6x7.

Thomas

Ari
17-Dec-2013, 19:55
Super Graphic sounds like the best option on a smaller budget; spend a little more and get a used Wista SP or VX.
Not necessarily lighter, but more compact and versatile.

Alan Gales
17-Dec-2013, 20:35
If you want a wooden field camera you could look at a used Tachihara or Shen Hao.

To add to Ari's suggestion, you might find an older metal Wista SP with the chrome front standard cheaper. The early ones didn't have front swing if that matters to you.

Bill_1856
17-Dec-2013, 21:15
Check out Busch Pressman Model D.

ImSoNegative
17-Dec-2013, 22:32
I have a shen hao HZ...IIA, very compact little camera, it has back rise, it also has base tilts which took a bit to get used to but now I really like it, I can use a 305mm on it in a copal 1 and get pretty close for a portrait, doubt one could go any longer than that though, the brochure says 360mm is the max, with a 305 its racked out pretty good even at infinity. they are great cameras though, I think this one weighs in at about 4 pounds.

austin granger
17-Dec-2013, 23:47
Wise minds above have already mentioned them, but I've owned both a Toyo AX and a Tachihara and they're great cameras. As far as choosing one over the other, I think it depends on whether you're drawn more to metal or wood, but again, they're both wonderful, and either can be found pretty cheaply used.

Pete Watkins
18-Dec-2013, 00:21
Look at a Wista 45DX. I've never regretted getting mine.

AtlantaTerry
18-Dec-2013, 01:18
I have a Crown Graphic and several Cambos. About 90% of my lenses are on Crown lens boards and I have a Cambo lens board adapter that will accept Crown boards. This way my travelling kit is fairly small and compact because the lenses are not on the huge Cambo boards.

In general, I find myself happy with just using the Crown. The only time I now use the Cambo is with my huge Rodenstock 300mm f/5.6 Sironar-N or Nikkor 90mm f/4.5 lenses.

polyglot
18-Dec-2013, 01:23
check the bellows length on anything you consider; some have short bellows that will be an issue with the 300mm lens and are not interchangeable.

I have a Toyo 45A and it's OK with a 240 but it won't go to very high magnification. It'll do 1:1 with a 150 and some abuse.

Regular Rod
18-Dec-2013, 05:13
I currently have a nice Sinar F2 but it is just too bulky so I don't ever take it out. I would like to get a 4x5 folder that doesn't cost a fortune. I would love to have a Chamonix or Ebony but I am not going to spend that kind of money.
I would like some recommendations on something that is good but inexpensive. Maybe one of the Graflex or Speed Graphic??? I have 90mm, 150mm 180mm, 250mm and 300mm lenses if that makes any difference.

I don't ever use tons of movements. I don't need the viewfinder that some of these cameras have, I want to focus from the GG. A rotating back would really be nice.

Suggestions???
Thanks

http://www.mppusers.com/mtmkvii.jpg http://www.mppusers.com/mkviirotatingback.jpg

MPP MkVII

or



http://www.mppusers.com/mtmkviii.jpg

MPP MkVIII

Will give you everything you listed. A really mint condition one will cost between £300 to £500.

You may need to import it from the UK. There is a very healthy club for MPP users dedicated to keeping these beautifully engineered cameras working. http://www.mppusers.com/

RR

stradibarrius
18-Dec-2013, 08:03
Thanks for the information! I think the Busch Pressman D is something I may take a serious look at. I would like to have a Tachahara Or Shen Ho but I don't want to spend that much right now. All of the 4x5's I have had have all been monorails and are great for the studio but I want to go out with it. I know that my F2 will breakdown into smaller sections but I don't want to go through the hassel.

DrTang
18-Dec-2013, 08:35
check the bellows length on anything you consider; some have short bellows that will be an issue with the 300mm lens and are not interchangeable.


Linhof Tech III

built like a tank..decent moves, rotating back, TRIPLE Extension bellows - about 450 or less for a used one on ebay

rich caramadre
18-Dec-2013, 08:47
I note on the Busch Pressman D. I have one, it was my first 4x5 camera and really like it. That said I outgrew it pretty quickly. One thing to consider is lensboards are hard to find for this camera. And they are only 3 inchs square. Some lenses will not fit in the front standard. Bellows go to 12 inchs so a 240 in a copal 1 is about max focal length. If you wanted to try a 300mm at infinity it would have to be a Nikkor M or the Fuji which are in copal 1's. The ones in copal 3's would not fit through the front standard. All that said if you use small lenses, can find extra lensboards and don't use much in the way of movements they are nice tuff little cameras.

Jim Jones
18-Dec-2013, 08:59
I second RR's suggestion of a MPP. It is a bit heavier than the Graphic, Busch, or B&J, but more versatile. Mine has the advantage of using the 4" lens board so common on older press and view cameras.

premortho
18-Dec-2013, 11:53
I have an Anniversary Speed Graphic and a Burke&James 45 Speed Press. The Speeder is faster to use when you have to hurry, but the B&J has far superior front movements and a rotary back, so it's better on a tripod.

Drew Bedo
18-Dec-2013, 18:55
View Camera Magazine ran two articles on how to modify a Speed or Crown Graphic for front tilt and swing, way-back in the early 2Ks. a friend of mine die it while I watched, in about five minutes.

Another option would be one of the Polaroid 110 based conversions.

Cheers

smithdoor
18-Dec-2013, 19:09
Drew does you have any links photos or upload on crown graphic modification for swing.
I use crown graphic for over 40 years.

Thank you
Dave


View Camera Magazine ran two articles on how to modify a Speed or Crown Graphic for front tilt and swing, way-back in the early 2Ks. a friend of mine did it while I watched, in about five minutes.

Another option would be one of the Polaroid 110 based conversions.

Cheers

Patrick13
18-Dec-2013, 19:16
The front rotate on axis mod is pretty simple, if not permanent since it involves a little grinding. I'd like to see the swing mod, too, if it can be found.

csxcnj
18-Dec-2013, 19:30
Drew does you have any links photos or upload on crown graphic modification for swing.
I use crown graphic for over 40 years.

Thank you
Dave

Here ya go...http://www.cameraquest.com/supercov.htm.....for a Super Graphic but should give you a starting point.

soeren
19-Dec-2013, 09:11
I currently have a nice Sinar F2 but it is just too bulky so I don't ever take it out. I would like to get a 4x5 folder that doesn't cost a fortune. I would love to have a Chamonix or Ebony but I am not going to spend that kind of money.
I would like some recommendations on something that is good but inexpensive. Maybe one of the Graflex or Speed Graphic??? I have 90mm, 150mm 180mm, 250mm and 300mm lenses if that makes any difference.

I don't ever use tons of movements. I don't need the viewfinder that some of these cameras have, I want to focus from the GG. A rotating back would really be nice.

Suggestions???
Thanks

Just for clarification chamonix cameras are not that expensive. You can get multiple for the price of one ebony and there have a couple of used 45N1 and N2 for sale already.
Best regards

stradibarrius
19-Dec-2013, 12:30
Where are they for sale?

csxcnj
19-Dec-2013, 13:15
Where are they for sale?

Google Chamonix view camera, you'll get a list of info and any eBay listings that are out there. I've seen Chamies going for under $700. Or look at Shen Hao.

You'll need lens boards that fit whatever Graphic you get if you go that route. Some Graphics can take other model's lens boards but not all boards fit all models.

Have a Super aGraphic and really like it but it isn't light. Off the top of my head minr comes in at around 7 pounds.

Jon Shiu
19-Dec-2013, 13:29
Super Graphic is about 4lbs. 13 oz without lens, 5 lbs. 6 oz with 135mm Optar lens.

Jon

csxcnj
19-Dec-2013, 14:02
Super Graphic is about 4lbs. 13 oz without lens, 5 lbs. 6 oz with 135mm Optar lens.

Jon

Correct. I just weighed mine. Still feels HEAVY compared to a Chamie or Shen Hao but t isn't that bad to haul around. I'm just getting old so even a couple pounds difference feels like a lot.:rolleyes:

mikezvi
20-Dec-2013, 09:21
Linhof Tech III

built like a tank..decent moves, rotating back, TRIPLE Extension bellows - about 450 or less for a used one on ebay

I got mine from keh in bgn condition for $225. I feel bad recommending things for people because I've so little experience so far, but I couldn't be happier with it as my first camera.

Jeff Keller
21-Dec-2013, 22:52
Taking a quick look I see Buschman Studio D at about $400, Chamonix at about $700, ... maybe the price is creeping too high but the Canham DLC 4x5 is sometimes sold at about $900. It folds up nicely, has more movements and bellows than you apparently need, but doesn't have the "box" that a Technika has.

The "box" cameras have limitations with short focal length lenses but are easy to carry and setup. With your shortest lens at 90mm and not using a lot of movement a Technika style camera could be an excellent choice.

ghoonk
22-Dec-2013, 01:14
I have a Linhof Super Technika V, two Speed Graphics, and two Linhof Kardans and personal experience is such that the STV is compact, easier and faster to set up, and built like a tank. It is, however, heavy, which has advantages (stability) and disadvantages (weight). I have no worries about it being able to take heavy use in the field, but I cannot say the same of the Speed Graphic cameras which are lighter despite being bigger. The SGs are quite a bit older and certainly feel more fragile. Not sure about the Crown Graphic but i believe the bodies might be similar, less the potentially fragile focal plane shutter.

I'm still a bigger fan of view cameras for field work due to the fact that I can use wider lenses without worrying about the drop bed showing up in the frame. The STV takes 75mm lenses fine though you would want to get your hands on a helical mount of some sort and even then there's practically little movement possible.

If you do make the switch to a field camera, and weight is not an issue while durability is, I would recommend a Technika ( same as the Super Technika, without the rangefinder mechanism). If budget is an issue, then a Crown Graphic is hard to beat. I've been exploring the Toyo 45CF as a lightweight alternative but did not relish the idea of switching out my lens boards. If you do make the switch and wish to sell your F2, do drop me a line as I'm in the market for one :)

cyron123
2-May-2014, 05:40
Sorry for my question. I hope this is not a "No Go": do you know a folder camera to attach a digital back?

Bob Salomon
2-May-2014, 05:41
Sorry for my question. I hope this is not a "No Go": do you know a folder camera to attach a digital back?

Very easy to put a digital back on a Master Technika or a Wista.

jbenedict
2-May-2014, 06:33
Considering you have a 250 and 300mm lenses, you need to keep having enough bellows draw in order to focus them. If it is important to you to be able to use them in the field, you will need to have a camera with enough bellows.

I have a Crown and like it very much. However, I use it with a 135mm, 6x12 back and use rangefinder focussing and hand hold it. I am fixing up a beater Technika III for more general use. It has a long bellows and can rack out pretty far. I have a 375 Caltar I use on my 8x10 but it has a #5 shutter and cannot hope to fit on the Linhof so I've never used a long lens on it. A disadvantage of the Linhof is that it, and the IV and V, does not deal with wide angle lenses very well. They can be focussed but the design of the body casing makes it difficult to use a lot of rise or shift.

Toyo bought the Super Graphic tooling and design from Singer/Graflex and it has morphed into the 45A. I had a 45A at one time. It was a fine camera but I sold it for reasons which may or may not matter to you. I did not particularly like the need to pull the bedrail out of the back of the camera for long focussing and I did not like the inability to store a lens on the camera with the camera closed. It is possible to leave a 135 on both the Linhof and the Crown. If I had something like a 210 Geronar, I could leave one of those on there also. The 45A has the ability to use 90mm lenses on flat boards. A 65 would need a recessed board.

If I was in your position, I think I would look for a Technika IV or V. The other cameras mentioned are fine cameras but it is my personal tastes which cause me to go towards the Linhof. If you really like a camera that doesn't really have the bellows draw for the longer lenses, there are plenty of telephoto lenses available for 4x5 which take less bellows. If you see yourself using the 90mm and maybe a 65mm, the Toyo or one of the other cameras could be better.

An alternative thought is to get a lighter Sinar monorail. An Alpina is a very light camera and will use all of your lenses without needing to change the lens boards. A bag bellows is available. Monorails are going pretty cheap these days.

RE: Digital backs- putting a digital back on a medium format/large format is not a cheap walk in the park. Even a used back which is a couple of generations old is quite expensive. Digibacks are such complex devices that I would want to get one from a recognized dealer with support. Putting a digiback on a large format camera takes an adapter back which might cost as much or more than the entire rest of your outfit. Do a little research on your own and see for yourself. I just finished evaluating my digichoices. I had intended on getting a digiback for my V-Series Hasselblad. Costwise, it was somewhat impractical for a non-professional to own a medium format digiback. To afford the digiback, it needs to provide income. I bought a Nikon D300 used. I evaluated the available choices and decided that it was good enough for my needs and that it would take *a lot* more money to get something better. IMHO, for the amateur, the film/scanner route seems best for medium/large format digital.

(Here's a link to a source of adapter backs: http://www.kapturegroup.com/phase/phase.html Here's a well-known dealer of medium/large format digibacks: https://captureintegration.com )

LarsAC
2-May-2014, 09:26
Suggestions???
Thanks

A good backpack !

Lars

cyron123
2-May-2014, 09:53
Very easy to put a digital back on a Master Technika or a Wista.

Hi Bob,
My only solution for a digi back and a master technika is the sliding adapter from Linhof. But this is very big. Especially with the tilt mechanism on the lower side. Is there an other solution?
Thank you.

Bob Salomon
2-May-2014, 10:55
Hi Bob,
My only solution for a digi back and a master technika is the sliding adapter from Linhof. But this is very big. Especially with the tilt mechanism on the lower side. Is there an other solution?
Thank you.

Yes, the 001693 adapter for Hasselblad V backs. Mounts in place of the GG frame. Also works on the Wista.

cyron123
3-May-2014, 00:34
Yes, the 001693 adapter for Hasselblad V backs. Mounts in place of the GG frame. Also works on the Wista.

Thank you. Is there a solution for a h back too?

Bob Salomon
3-May-2014, 02:52
Thank you. Is there a solution for a h back too?

Only with the sliding back.

Bernice Loui
3-May-2014, 09:00
+1

On the Linhof Technika.

As a previous owner, it is a nice to use camera that has stability, precision and enough bellows for a folder. There is a problem with using wide angle lenses & movement with the Technika. The bed does drop to aid in this, still it is a very real limitation. Beyond this, the Technika is not all that light weight.


In time, I simply gave up on all folders and went back to dealing with a Sinar monorail, it works if making photographs is not too far from the vehicle of transport. These days, it is not a limitation for what I'm interested in.

Never liked the Sinar Alpine as it is less compatible with the rest of the Sinar system.

Alternatives could be to shorten the rail and make a light weight and easy to use travel case. Before shortening the standard Sinar rail, the camera lived on a 6" rail and the standard rail was added once set up. This made the Sinar F much smaller and easier to pack in a smaller travel case.

View cameras are a mix of tradeoffs, it always comes down to what one is willing to live with.



Bernice





A disadvantage of the Linhof is that it, and the IV and V, does not deal with wide angle lenses very well. They can be focussed but the design of the body casing makes it difficult to use a lot of rise or shift.

If I was in your position, I think I would look for a Technika IV or V. The other cameras mentioned are fine cameras but it is my personal tastes which cause me to go towards the Linhof. If you really like a camera that doesn't really have the bellows draw for the longer lenses, there are plenty of telephoto lenses available for 4x5 which take less bellows. If you see yourself using the 90mm and maybe a 65mm, the Toyo or one of the other cameras could be better.

An alternative thought is to get a lighter Sinar monorail. An Alpina is a very light camera and will use all of your lenses without needing to change the lens boards. A bag bellows is available. Monorails are going pretty cheap these days.

Bob Salomon
3-May-2014, 10:18
+1

On the Linhof Technika.

As a previous owner, it is a nice to use camera that has stability, precision and enough bellows for a folder. There is a problem with using wide angle lenses & movement with the Technika. The bed does drop to aid in this, still it is a very real limitation. Beyond this, the Technika is not all that light weight.


In time, I simply gave up on all folders and went back to dealing with a Sinar monorail, it works if making photographs is not too far from the vehicle of transport. These days, it is not a limitation for what I'm interested in.

Never liked the Sinar Alpine as it is less compatible with the rest of the Sinar system.

Alternatives could be to shorten the rail and make a light weight and easy to use travel case. Before shortening the standard Sinar rail, the camera lived on a 6" rail and the standard rail was added once set up. This made the Sinar F much smaller and easier to pack in a smaller travel case.

View cameras are a mix of tradeoffs, it always comes down to what one is willing to live with.



Bernice

The Technikardan will be even more versatile and less of a problem and go from extreme wide to whatever works within 20" with no bed or rail limitations.

ic-racer
3-May-2014, 11:38
Horseman FA is another inexpensive, lightweight, folding 4x5 field camera:
114785