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Arash
15-Dec-2013, 17:07
New to large format here!

I've bought a 4x5 Cambo without any lenses, have been looking around for recommendations but have found nothing satisfying yet, so here i am asking you guys for help.
I need a wide lens for cambo that would have a similar coverage to 50mm on 6x6 middle format or 28mm on 135. what do you guys recommend? (I also have a dumb question, is it possible to change the lens plate on a sinar lens and use it on cambo?)

Color MTF data doesn't matter to me, i plan to only shoot BW, of course anything sharp and reasonably priced can do it for me!

Regards,
Arash

Bob Salomon
15-Dec-2013, 17:10
MTF applies to any medium, black and white, or not. So do distortion curves and fall-off curves. So why wouldn't you want to have that information?

Ian Greenhalgh
15-Dec-2013, 17:12
A 90mm I suppose is closest to the fov you want. There are many that cover 4x5, primarily the Angulon and Super Angulon from Schneider and the Grandagon from Rodenstock. Which one depends on budget, they are pretty common lenses.

Arash
15-Dec-2013, 17:37
Bob: Obviously since i don't care about inequality of mtf in different wavelengths which might result in Chromatic aberration or such imperfections that are mostly visible in a color photograph.
Ian: Thanks a lot! So can i buy an Angulon 90 that is currently on a Linhof or Plaubel plate and adopt it into a Cambo plate?

Bob Salomon
15-Dec-2013, 17:55
Bob: Obviously since i don't care about inequality of mtf in different wavelengths which might result in Chromatic aberration or such imperfections that are mostly visible in a color photograph.
Ian: Thanks a lot! So can i buy an Angulon 90 that is currently on a Linhof or Plaubel plate and adopt it into a Cambo plate?

That isn't what you look at MTF curves for. Why not read about it before you decide?

Any view camera lens on a lens board can be remounted on another board for a different camera. But you should be aware that the 90mm Angulon does not fully cover 4x5.

Arash
15-Dec-2013, 18:14
Thanks Dear Bob for your help!

however I did never say that MTF chart of the lens doesn't matter to me, but I tried to trigger the brain of my potential readers that i don't care about color imperfections, you see, there might be an old cheap lens with very good contrast reproduction that wasn't designed with color in mind, so has a not so perfect MTF result in let's say red(700nm) for example, but monochrome MTF chart for example in 500nm would be respectable(which is what i care about) (many companies never release such a detailed chart anyways).

And thanks about mentioning coverage of Angulon. Would you recommend any lens other than that? I see that Rodenstock Grandagon 90/6.8 has a 221mm circle, which is more than sufficient, have you worked with this one? does it have fall off in the corners etc? I don't need anything faster than f6 or 7, plan to use it in a studio, but don't want to use any central filters.

So maybe i can sum it up like this, A 90mm lens without noticeable vignetting and full coverage of 4x5.

Dan Fromm
15-Dec-2013, 18:15
Bob: Obviously since i don't care about inequality of mtf in different wavelengths which might result in Chromatic aberration or such imperfections that are mostly visible in a color photograph.
Ian: Thanks a lot! So can i buy an Angulon 90 that is currently on a Linhof or Plaubel plate and adopt it into a Cambo plate?

Arash, chromatic aberration reduces resolution in b/w as well as in color work. The color fringing I suspect you're familiar with is used by some "soft focus" lenses, e.g., Berthiot Nebulor/Color and Boyer Opale, to produce the soft focus effect. These lenses can be used only with b/w film, on color film the results they give consistently fail to please. If you want good sharpness with b/w, you must use a lens that's well corrected for color.

Understand that direct comparisons of focal lengths between nominal 6x6 (actual size 57 x 57), 24x36 and nominal 4x5 (roughly 90 x 120) is impossible because the formats have different aspect ratios. A 50 mm lens on 6x6 sees the same horizontal angle of view as a 105 mm lens on 4x5. A 28 mm lens on 24 x 36 sees the same horizontal angle of view as a 93 mm lens on 4x5. I leave making the comparisons for vertical angles of view and for the formats' diagonals as an exercise for you.

Lenses can be switched fairly freely from board to board. They don't care what they're attached to. The boards must, however, be bored appropriately for the shuttter.

Arash
15-Dec-2013, 18:31
Dan i tried to explain in my previous comment(which you have not read it yet probably, since we were writing at the same time) why I wouldn't mind an imperfect mtf in longer wavelengths(which is not visible to non-IR BW film)
And you're totally right, maybe i should have used the word "feeling", We all know the numbers, however for me 50mm in 6x6 has roughly the same feeling as 28mm on 135.
I'm very happy about this new discovery! It is indeed a very democratic format.
Do you have any specific recommendations for me? I'm looking to start this project asap and also as wise as possible. I seem to be at the right place here for advise.
Right now i have this candidates:
Rodenstock Grandagon 90/6.8 or 4.5
Nikkor SW 90
Schneider 90mm f/8 (with 215mm circle, not the 6.8 version)

Dan Fromm
15-Dec-2013, 19:07
Arash, the four lenses you listed are all good ones. There are two 90 SW Nikkors, f/4.5 and f/8. None of them would be a bad mistake.

You should care a lot about whether your lenses are well-corrected for color. Everyone else does. And it hard to find a relatively modern LF lens that is not well corrected for color.

jackpie
15-Dec-2013, 19:38
Arash welcome to large format photography and to this forum.

Have a look at the general information on the home page of this website and specifically the list of lenses for 4x5: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

You will find any of the modern (60s onwards) 90mm wide angle lenses made by Schneider/Rodenstock/Nikon/Fuji will be more than acceptable. Pay more for more modern designs like XLs, more coverage (more movements), better coatings (more contrast), and faster lenses (brighter to view on the ground glass, but usually larger and heavier).

Arash
15-Dec-2013, 19:51
Thanks Dan and jackpie, that is a very helpful link! Do you have a personal favorites that you have used and have first hand experience with?

jackpie
15-Dec-2013, 20:23
I use a Nikon 90SW f4.5 but I bet I would be just as happy with any of the other F4.5 - 5.6 models. I would recommend these faster designs unless you really need to watch the weight. They are about twice as heavy as the f8 models.

Then it's really down to what's available on the second hand market. You should be able to find a nice used lens in good condition and with a working shutter for less than $500.

Jim Noel
15-Dec-2013, 21:20
Bob: Obviously since i don't care about inequality of mtf in different wavelengths which might result in Chromatic aberration or such imperfections that are mostly visible in a color photograph.
Ian: Thanks a lot! So can i buy an Angulon 90 that is currently on a Linhof or Plaubel plate and adopt it into a Cambo plate?
Yes, you can easily adapt it.

David Karp
15-Dec-2013, 22:30
A 90mm will work just fine with your Cambo. If you have one that looks like this, http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Item284.html, you will have to place the tripod block in front of or behind both standards on the rail so you can get the standards close enough to focus the 90. There are also short (approximately 12 inches) rails that you can use to substitute for the long rail that came with the camera. This way you won't poke yourself in the chest with the rail when using short lenses. The short rail actually works pretty well for with lenses from wide angle up to about 240mm on that style of camera, depending on how close you are to the subject. Also, with the 90mm lens you are going to want a recessed lensboard instead of the standard flat board. Just scroll down on the web page I mentioned above for photos of some Cambo recessed lensboards.

AtlantaTerry
16-Dec-2013, 03:55
New to large format here!

I've bought a 4x5 Cambo without any lenses, have been looking around for recommendations but have found nothing satisfying yet, so here i am asking you guys for help.
I need a wide lens for cambo that would have a similar coverage to 50mm on 6x6 middle format or 28mm on 135. what do you guys recommend? (I also have a dumb question, is it possible to change the lens plate on a sinar lens and use it on cambo?)

Color MTF data doesn't matter to me, i plan to only shoot BW, of course anything sharp and reasonably priced can do it for me!

Regards,
Arash

For use with wide angle lenses you will need a recessed lens board and a bag bellows. These allow wide angle lenses close access to the film.

When you bought your Cambo did you receive these two items?

If you do not have a recessed lens board I suggest you wait. Then after you purchase your wide angle lens look for a recessed lens board that has a hole that is correct for the shutter size.

I have 3 Cambo 4x5 cameras. Over time I have purchased many lens boards (recessed and flat) from eBay sellers. The same for bag bellows.

How many 4x5 sheet film holders do you have? Keep your eyes out for those as well on eBay.

Dan Fromm
16-Dec-2013, 08:25
Terry, are you acquainted with the stupid Cambo trick? Take the rear standard off the rail, rotate it 180 degrees (the whole thing) and put it back on the rail. When this is done and the standard bellows is used a 90 on flat board can be focused to infinity. A bag bellows will allow movements, the standard bellows won't.

The stupid Cambo trick's one drawback is that it appears that darkslides can be inserted and withdrawn only in landscape orientation. The second stupid Cambo trick is to rotate the rail 90 degrees in the tripod mounting block.

Dan "ask the man who has one" Fromm

Arash
16-Dec-2013, 18:01
jackpie: Weight doesn't matter, the camera feels very stable and i'm gonna use it indoors so it shouldn't be a problem, i read around that the nikkor f8 one is sharper than the 4.5(both being sharp enough for anything i'll ever need), is that true?
David: Thanks a lot! I've got my camera with a normal C-224 board, and for 90mm it seems like i would need a #0 one, so you would recommend C-228 which is #0 right?
AtlantaTerry: Do I really need both together for a 90mm? a recessed board and a bag bellow? I've got 10 4x5 holders and 6 9x12 ones with the camera, no bag bellows tho, only a normal bellow, a #1 lens board, ground glass part and a polaroid holder.
Dan: I wish I could understand the trick

C_Remington
16-Dec-2013, 18:30
I have KILLER deal on a 90mm.

PM me if interested.

BrianShaw
17-Dec-2013, 07:19
... Do I really need both together for a 90mm? a recessed board and a bag bellow? ...

If you want flexibility (as much movement as will be possible and the ability to rotate your back normally) you will want both. If you can do with less flexibility, then not so much, because you can use Dan's stupid Cambo trick and/or just have no movements available.

After using my Cambo using "Dan's" trick -- which I seem to have simultaneously invented ;) -- and trying to work with just a recessed board... I got a bag bellows. It is a good investment.

AtlantaTerry
17-Dec-2013, 11:09
AtlantaTerry: Do I really need both together for a 90mm? a recessed board and a bag bellow? I've got 10 4x5 holders and 6 9x12 ones with the camera, no bag bellows tho, only a normal bellow, a #1 lens board, ground glass part and a polaroid holder.

Yes, you really need both a recessed lens board with a hole that is correct for the lens. Plus you will want a bag bellows. The main point of having a 90mm lens on a view camera is to be able to do movements. Without a recessed board and bag bellows you can't do many movements.

As I said earlier, watch eBay. I just won a pleated bag bellows for US $45 and have a couple recessed lens boards that I believe I bought for something like US $20 each. So bargains are out there.

Here is a recessed lens board with Copal #0 hole on eBay right now $34 + $4 shipping:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambo-Recessed-Lens-Board-Wide-Angle-Copal-0-Lens-Board-Excellent-Condition-/291039682523?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item43c3511fdb

Another for $45:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambo-Recessed-Lens-Board-Drill-For-Copal-0-/171196490812?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item27dc1b243c

Two flat Cambo lens boards for $20:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Vintage-Cambo-Lensboards-/281222933169?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item417a316ab1

Eight flat Cambo lens boards for $100:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-8-Cambo-Lens-Boards-163mm-X-163mm-for-LARGE-format-Camera-Photography-/291033974993?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item43c2fa08d1

So you see, there are some excellent bargains out there if you have patience and keep your eyes open.



When I first bought my first Cambo I tried the 180* trick. But, of course, the darkslide can only be removed if the film is in a vertical orientation. That was a motivation to buy recessed lens boards and my first bag bellows.

BTW, in an earlier discussion someone made the point about using a shorter rail. Two of my Cambo cameras use the square rail which measures 1x1 inches. I was thinking about going to a hardware store to purchase a 1x1 towel rack rod or clothes closet rod then filling it with something solid such as roofer' caulk to stiffen and reinforce it. But then I won an extra 1x1 rail on another eBay auction that I can cut down to any size I want.

Dan Fromm
17-Dec-2013, 11:39
When I first bought my first Cambo I tried the 180* trick. But, of course, the darkslide can only be removed if the film is in a vertical orientation. That was a motivation to buy recessed lens boards and my first bag bellows.

Terry, here's the other stupid Cambo trick that will let you use the first stupid Cambo trick and shoot in landscape (horizontal) orientation: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=8D71BC33C77D1008!306&authkey=!AESsyxG5JGQNytE&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

AtlantaTerry
17-Dec-2013, 12:11
Terry, here's the other stupid Cambo trick that will let you use the first stupid Cambo trick and shoot in landscape (horizontal) orientation: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=8D71BC33C77D1008!306&authkey=!AESsyxG5JGQNytE&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

Guys, unless you supply a password, SkyDrive won't let folks see what you uploaded.

How 'bout trying Dropbox, instead?

BrianShaw
17-Dec-2013, 12:35
I saw it OK. Realy cool concept. I wish I had thought of it.

Dan Fromm
17-Dec-2013, 14:22
Terry, please try this: http://sdrv.ms/J3hhU4

Brian, you're too rich. Lack of inexpensive alternatives is the mother of invention.

Oh, my! Did I just say that poverty is desirable? Been there, don't want to go back.

Bob Salomon
17-Dec-2013, 14:31
Yes, you really need both a recessed lens board with a hole that is correct for the lens.

No. You need a hole that is correct for the shutter. For instance, a 90mm Grandagon-N 6.8 is on a 0 shutter while the 90mm 4.5 Grandagon-N is mounted in a 1 shutter.

BrianShaw
17-Dec-2013, 14:59
Brian, you're too rich. Lack of inexpensive alternatives is the mother of invention.

Oh, my! Did I just say that poverty is desirable? Been there, don't want to go back.

Not poor but definitely not rich. Lazy, perhaps, overworked, and willing to spend a few dollars becuase it is quicker and easier. :o I don't want to go back to poverty either!

I remember shopping around for a long time and getting a bag bellows and recessed lensboard (plus a short rail) for really, really cheap. Now that I mention it... I did the same with the 90mm lens. I think it took me 20 (or more) years to find one that was affordable enough given my limited interest in wide angle.

Arash
17-Dec-2013, 17:53
I think i was successful with rotating both the lens board and the ground glass parts(Dan's rather smart trick), now everything faces inside, the shortest distance between the ground glass and the lensboard is 85mm. Many 90mm lenses report flange back of between 90-100mm(http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/lenses.html), hence having the focal length of 90mm, I guess i should just buy the lens and try to see if i can focus to infinity. Isn't it harder to use the lens with a recessed board?

Dan Fromm
17-Dec-2013, 18:25
Arash, it isn't my trick, it was around long before I was given a Cambo. The distances you quote make me think that you have the tripod mounting block between the standards. Put it behind the rear or in front of the front and you'll be able to get them closer together.

Arash
17-Dec-2013, 18:35
Yes that is so, the tripod block is between the two, however i think the bellow itself is resisting getting any more compressed.

Btw, AtlantaTerry, thanks a lot for the finds, I rather wait a bit and buy from a european seller if any shows up, have had horrible experiences with our customs people regarding camera parts coming from non-EU countries.

David Karp
17-Dec-2013, 19:56
Yes, you really need both a recessed lens board with a hole that is correct for the lens. Plus you will want a bag bellows. The main point of having a 90mm lens on a view camera is to be able to do movements. Without a recessed board and bag bellows you can't do many movements.

As I said earlier, watch eBay. I just won a pleated bag bellows for US $45 and have a couple recessed lens boards that I believe I bought for something like US $20 each. So bargains are out there.

Here is a recessed lens board with Copal #0 hole on eBay right now $34 + $4 shipping:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambo-Recessed-Lens-Board-Wide-Angle-Copal-0-Lens-Board-Excellent-Condition-/291039682523?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item43c3511fdb

Another for $45:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambo-Recessed-Lens-Board-Drill-For-Copal-0-/171196490812?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item27dc1b243c

Two flat Cambo lens boards for $20:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Vintage-Cambo-Lensboards-/281222933169?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item417a316ab1

Eight flat Cambo lens boards for $100:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-8-Cambo-Lens-Boards-163mm-X-163mm-for-LARGE-format-Camera-Photography-/291033974993?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item43c2fa08d1

So you see, there are some excellent bargains out there if you have patience and keep your eyes open.



When I first bought my first Cambo I tried the 180* trick. But, of course, the darkslide can only be removed if the film is in a vertical orientation. That was a motivation to buy recessed lens boards and my first bag bellows.

BTW, in an earlier discussion someone made the point about using a shorter rail. Two of my Cambo cameras use the square rail which measures 1x1 inches. I was thinking about going to a hardware store to purchase a 1x1 towel rack rod or clothes closet rod then filling it with something solid such as roofer' caulk to stiffen and reinforce it. But then I won an extra 1x1 rail on another eBay auction that I can cut down to any size I want.

You can go to a metals shop and look for a piece of 1x1 aluminum extrusion. Cut it at 12 or 13 inches and be careful not to roll a standard off the end of the rail!

Dan Fromm
17-Dec-2013, 20:25
You can go to a metals shop and look for a piece of 1x1 aluminum extrusion. Cut it at 12 or 13 inches and be careful not to roll a standard off the end of the rail!

There may be no need to cut metal. 80/20 t-slotted aluminum extrusion, 1" square cross section, can be bought through Amazon in a variety of lengths. Cambo SC rail riders go right on and, yes, it is very possible to roll a standard off the end. I haven't done it yet, but I sooner or later will.

David Karp
17-Dec-2013, 21:25
That stuff looks great. I guess you could drill a hole through the center on each end and use a couple of cotter pins.

AtlantaTerry
18-Dec-2013, 01:26
No. You need a hole that is correct for the shutter.

As Homer Simpson would say, "DOH!". Add the sound of my palm hitting my forehead!

Thanks, Bob.

:)

AtlantaTerry
18-Dec-2013, 01:29
That stuff looks great. I guess you could drill a hole through the center on each end and use a couple of cotter pins.

Exactly. I was thinking along similar lines that all one would need would be a small screw - just enough for the head to block a standard yet if the tightening knob were loose enough, the standard would be removable. But now that you mention cotter pins, they make more sense.