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Roger Hesketh
14-Dec-2013, 14:52
It has been a lousy day weather wise here so I have been amusing myself making lensboards for and trying to mount some of my lenses on a Graflex Series D 4x5 SLR camera.

The lenses in question are a 15" Graflex Tele Optar, a 8 1/2" Ross Xpres which fortuitously has the same flange size as the Tele Optar and a 9" Wollensak Verito.

I am encountering some unexpected problems mounting the Xpres which has a sunken mount and the Tele Optar. The rear of those lenses would appear to foul the action of the reflex mirror when the bellows is in an unextended condition. I had not anticipated this problem particularly as the Tele Optar was sold as an accessory for the Graflex Super D. I was not aware that the Series D was that much different from the later camera or was it an issue when that lens was mounted to a Super D camera as well. That is if it is an issue at all and I should just remember to rack the lens forward before moving the reflex mirror into place.

Another problem I have is I possess a very limited amount of personal RAM and have found that idiot proofing my technique to discourage operator error pays dividends. So I am considering making some very thick lens boards up to 3 to 4 times thicker than normal to move the lenses further forward to clear the mirror. Is this a daft idea? I appreciate the need to introduce slots top and bottom forward of the first normal thickness of the lenses board to facilitate mounting the lens board to the camera.

If anyone should have a suggestion of a more elegant solution to the problem I would appreciate your advice please.

Thanks in advance

Roger

Jim Noel
14-Dec-2013, 15:25
You might build lens boards which resemble reversed recess boards. I used to do this for long lenses on cameras with short bellows.

Roger Hesketh
14-Dec-2013, 16:50
Thanks Jim. It is a good idea.The lensboard is only 3 3/4 inches square and sadly I'm not that skilled. What I suppose I am hoping for is that someone who has had this problem before will chip in with a suggestion as how to mount a lens board further forward in a non destructive way. It is very unlikely I am the first to encounter this albeit minor problem.

AtlantaTerry
14-Dec-2013, 17:17
... I should just remember to rack the lens forward before moving the reflex mirror into place.

You can't rack the lens forward prior to taking a photo (so the mirror will not strike the lens), that would make it out of focus. Your only solution is to use an extended lens board.

Question: if you make an extended lens board will you be able to focus at infinity? Some tests and measurements may be in order.

Roger Hesketh
14-Dec-2013, 17:55
You can't rack the lens forward prior to taking a photo (so the mirror will not strike the lens), that would make it out of focus. Your only solution is to use an extended lens board.


Hi Thank you for your reply. It depends on the lens. The shortest lens that can be used with this camera and still achieve infinity focus is a 190mm lens and even then their is a little wiggle room.Longer lenses have to be racked forward to achieve infinity focus anyway.Thinking about it now probably the best way might be to get a short length of tube fashioned for the job. It is also probably the most expensive way so I will have to pass on that.

Dan Fromm
14-Dec-2013, 18:50
Roger, pardon my confusion. If I understand your posts correctly, your problem is not that the TeleOptar and sunk-mount Xpres get in the mirror's when focused to infinity, rather that if you rack the camera's front standard all the way back they'll hit the mirror. Is this correct?

If so, where's the problem?

Roger Hesketh
14-Dec-2013, 20:29
Hello Dan

The problem is it is not very convenient to walk around with the bellows partially racked out. It is much better to rack out the bellows to the infinity focus position the bellows is then protected except when you are taking a photograph.

Also with the bellows partially extended the front of the bellows is more susceptible to knocks which would tend to push the bellows back on it's focusing rack and if the reflex mirror is down the lens would be pushed into it. This I feel is not just a theoretical possibility. It's pretty close to a certainty it would happen. At the resting position with the bellows fully retracted the lens is really rather deeply recessed within the camera body. With a short lens (190mm) this position is not that far off the the infinity focus position for that lens. To achieve infinity focus with a longer lens obviously you need to rack the bellows further forward. Even with the bellows extended forward the lens board is still very deeply recessed. So deeply recessed that I have just discovered that I cannot actually reach the aperture ring on the Optar lens to adjust the aperture if that lens is mounted on a lens board mounted in the conventional position. The front group on this lens is really rather large and the aperture ring is immediately behind it.

Now this is not some oddball Aero Ektar type lens which for various reason can not be mounted normally on the camera. It is the lens that was sold by Graflex themselves for use on the updated version of this same camera. Their must be some Knack to using this lens with this camera that I am unaware of and I am hoping someone on here will be able to enlighten me.

Randy
14-Dec-2013, 20:57
Sounds to me like (and I may be as confused as Dan) the 15" Tele Optar, when focused at infinity, the rear element sits to far inside the camera, interfering with the movement of the reflex mirror. If that is the case, then you will not be able to use that lens focused at infinity. No amount of lens-board modification will change that fact.

If, on the other hand, when focused at infinity, the rear element does not interfere with the mirror, then you just have to remember to run the front standard out to infinity (for that lens) before playing with the mirror release. Using a modified lens-board that moves the lens out farther will not have any different effect than just turning the focus knob to move the front standard out.

On my Series D 4X5, there is about 1/2" of space between the reflex mirror and the inside of the lens-board as the mirror frame passes the center of the lens-board (when the front standard is racked all the way back). The distance gets less as the mirror travels up.

So, focus at infinity and trip the mirror release. If it hits the real lens element, I would suggest not using that lens on that camera, but if you must, you will just not be able to shoot at infinity.

Edit / Sorry Roger, we posted at the same time. I think I understand now. Sounds like some sort of lens cone, like some enlargers use, is what you need. I am new to this camera so I just figured my 190mm Kodak Anastigmat was the standard lens for them.

Dan Fromm
14-Dec-2013, 21:21
Roger, according to Wollensak (see http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensak_5.html , p 4.) the 15"/5.6's flange-focal distance is 9 5/16". According to the bible, 10th edition, the 15"/5.6 is recommended for 4x5 Ser. D and Super D. Graflexes. The only possible problem with it on a D is that it won't focus as close as desired.

The sunken mount Xpres is a whole 'nother problem. Sunken mount lenses have the flange right at the front, so need more extension to make infinity than plain ordinary lenses with the flange in the middle or all the way back. The solution is a tube that accepts the lens and screws into the flange on the board. I think that the problem here is stubbornness, of the "I wants to use what I has as as it is" type. Common ailment, I contend with it m'self.

You're not going to like this suggestion, but it has been implemented many times. See http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469132-REG/Horseman_21722_SW_617_Pro_Medium_Format.html for a relatively elegant implementation. You should be able to cobble up a lens protector as the Horseman from plywood and attach it to the body with wood screws. No particular skills and very little equipment needed. Don't bother to tell me its ugly.

Cheers,

Dan

AtlantaTerry
15-Dec-2013, 08:43
I am interested in this topic because I have a 4x5 R.B. Super D Graflex #4167xx (circa 1947) with no lenses at all.

Dan Fromm
15-Dec-2013, 09:56
Here http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_16.html is a brochure that lists the standard issue focal lengths.

You have the camera. You should be able to measure minimum and maxumim extension. They will give you a reasonable idea of the range of focal lengths that the camera can focus to infinity. In the worst case the lens will have to be mounted entirely in front of the board.

Roger Hesketh
15-Dec-2013, 11:19
Dan thank you for going to so much trouble for me looking that stuff up for me.I saw that brochure last night. I am currently trying/struggling to upload a picture for you which illustrates the problem. Once again thanks.
Roger

Dan Fromm
15-Dec-2013, 17:59
Folks, Roger sent me a jpg of the lens stuffed into his camera's front. I've posted it at http://sdrv.ms/Jwsga3 .

I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly, but I think the board his lens is on should sit on the back of the front standard, not deep inside the bellows as it now is. Will someone who has a Ser. D look at the picture and tell him what should be there?

Randy
15-Dec-2013, 18:23
It does look peculiar, hard for me to tell from the photo though. Here is a gallery of pictures (http://www.pbase.com/rsweatt/rb_mods) I put up of mods I did on my camera a couple months ago. It should be clear where the lens-board mounts. On my camera, the lens-board sits right at 1 1/2" from the very front of the front standard, where the lens cover door is when closed.

Roger Hesketh
15-Dec-2013, 18:24
Dan thanks for that appreciated. That is where the lens board goes recessed within the bellows presumably to allow infinity focus with a 7" lens,

Roger Hesketh
15-Dec-2013, 18:28
The problem is the lensboard when mounted at it's correct position is quite deeply recessed within the camera bellows. About 1 1/2 inches from the front of the bellows. The flange on the lens in the picture is located where the front face of the lens board would be.

As can be seen in the picture with the lens mounted in that position one cannot access the aperture ring to adjust the aperture. Also when the bellows are fully retracted the rear of the lens fouls the mirror.

Now this lens was sold by Graflex as an accessory for this camera so one would think I must be able to mount this lens somehow without butchering the front of the camera to D.I.Y. fit a new lens board mounting position. Would they really sell an accessory which is so clearly unfit for purpose without D.I.Y. work to the camera.

I think not so. I must be missing a trick somehow. Hence the question on the forum. The issue is not infinity focus or focusing range it is how to use the lens with this camera in any way. Sure I can cobble another lens board to the front of the bellows but their must be a better way.

Leonard Robertson
15-Dec-2013, 18:43
Dan - I looked at my 4X5 Graflex D (not a Super unfortunately) and the lens board does set back in there quite a distance. From the front leather covered frame around the opening to the front of the lens board is about 1 5/8 inches. I suppose the lens board needs to be deep enough that the front door can close with the normal Ektar or Tessar installed.

From Roger's photo, I can't see where the lens aperture ring is. On my 15" Raptar Telephoto, the aperture ring is 1 1/4" from the front of the lens barrel, so it would be reachable if the lens were mounted on a flat board for the D. The lens is mounted on a Crown Graphic board, so it fits back into the front of the D almost as deep as a normal flat Graflex board. With this lens, the front standard of the D must be racked out about 2 1/4" to focus on infinity. Racked all the way back into the camera, the mirror would hit the rear of the lens barrel if the shutter release were accidentally pushed. It would be safer to have a short extension board so the rear of the lens would be out of the way of the swinging mirror, and the aperture ring be more accessible. Plus an extension board would allow slightly closer focusing. With my D and Raptar, it looks like about 1" of extension board would allow the rear of the lens to clear the mirror. But Roger's Super D and Optar may be different.

Len

Dan Fromm
15-Dec-2013, 19:02
Roger has sent me another picture that's somewhat clearer. http://sdrv.ms/19711yf

Roger Hesketh
15-Dec-2013, 19:30
Hello Len
Thank you mine is a Series D as well. Unfortunately the aperture ring on my lens is tucked just behind the front group of the lens near the flange. You are hard put to see it never mind turn it when the lens is sitting within the bellows. I am thinking their really is no alternative to modifying the camera to mount a lens board further forward. I am less disinclined to do this than earlier. Whilst preparing to photograph the camera earlier on today clumsy clot that I am I tripped over it and measured my length on the bedroom floor. Unfortunately my foot caught in the leather surrounding the door on the front of the camera and tore it. Perhaps it was fate telling me what I had to do.
Thank you all for your time and trouble. Randy I was looking at your modifications last night. They look neat.

Roger

Leonard Robertson
15-Dec-2013, 20:26
Roger - I found pictures online of 15" Tele-Optars, and it looks like the aperture ring is just in front of the lens board, so I understand your problem. It makes me wonder if the 15" lenses sold for the Graflexes either were in a different barrel mount with the aperture control toward the front of the lens (like my Raptar), or came mounted in some sort of extension lens board. I've never seen a picture of a factory mount 15" lens for a Graflex, so I really have no idea.

I once made a short extension board from hobby shop model aircraft plywood, square pieces of which I glued together in a stack. Then I drilled through the stack with a hole saw. This method might work for you, although you probably want to extend 1 1/4" or more, so it would be quite a few pieces. Some folks use black plastic plumbing pipe to make extension boards, although I've never tried this myself.

If you remove the two cloth side pieces from the camera front door, it allows the door to open all the way up against the front of the camera giving much better access to the lens aperture ring. Of course then the door no longer works as a sun shade. I've also seen where someone clamped a thin metal bar to the aperture ring extending forward along the lens barrel so you can move the aperture with this bar instead of reaching all the way back to the ring. I believe there was a home made aperture scale taped around the lens barrel in front of the bar, so you didn't even have to look at the original scale with the tiny engraved numbers.

Len

Roger Hesketh
15-Dec-2013, 21:46
Len The stacking plywood pieces approach to create extra extension I had been planning to use to stop the rear of the lens hitting the mirror. I suppose that approach could be used to gain the extra extension needed to make the aperture ring accessible. I will try to find some long thin bolts to bolt the flange right though the entire width of the extension. The lens is heavy and one would worry about the glue between the plywood sheets coming apart. Since I have damaged one of the side pieces I might as well move both or fold them up out of the way. You have some good ideas their and have given me much food for thought. Much obliged to you Sir.
Roger

AtlantaTerry
16-Dec-2013, 04:09
Roger has sent me another picture that's somewhat clearer. http://sdrv.ms/19711yf

I can't see the photo because you stored it on Microsoft's Sky Drive and a password is needed to proceed.

Roger Hesketh
16-Dec-2013, 07:45
I just clicked the link and it worked.

jnantz
16-Dec-2013, 07:48
i'm not sure but i think the 15" tele optars were usable on the telegraflxes slr's not the standard d-series.
the building an extension lensboard / top hat i guess would work with a D, but it always seemed like
too much effort for me ( for both teleoptars i have ), i just stuck with short rear element lenses. some cost less than
the materials and effort used to make accessory lensboards, and extensions would shift the weight FRONT
and make the camera awkward to handle and shoot, AND at least on mine risk messing with the front standard.

as with everything, YMMV

john

Dan Fromm
16-Dec-2013, 08:19
Terry, try again.

John, the bible, 10th edition, and the brochure I posted a link for state clearly that the lens is an option for D and Super D.

jnantz
16-Dec-2013, 09:18
Terry, try again.

John, the bible, 10th edition, and the brochure I posted a link for state clearly that the lens is an option for D and Super D.

huh

i've tried a handful of times over the years, from what i remember, neither of the lenses have rear element / mirror clearance.
maybe ... there were accessory lensboards ?

blueribbontea
16-Dec-2013, 09:59
I use the tele-optar regularly on the RB model D. What was required was a modification of the camera front standard. I installed a sliding lock at the bottom and two swinging clips high up on the sides. A little bit of light seal material at the top finished the job. To make this work required losing the closing door and flaps. I thought the advantage of the lens was worth it. In this position there is no problem in racking the track all the way in for transport.

mdarnton
16-Dec-2013, 11:16
I can't find it now, but I remember seeing a mount that Steve Grimes made that was a ring that fastened to the back of the lens board. The ring was a slip fit for the unthreaded extending back of the back lens unit, and there was a screw on the side of the ring that tightened the ring around the back of the lens. (the ring had a split, with two ears, one on either side, and a bolt between them to tighten the gap). That way most of the lens was hanging out ahead of the front of the board while the back was clamped into the ring. It was very clever, and would be a good way to hook up the lens under discussion.

Just imagine hanging one of these, of the right hole size for the back of the lens, behind the hole in the board: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/321105494199?lpid=82

Leonard Robertson
16-Dec-2013, 11:37
I found a picture of the factory 15" Optar mounted for the Super D on the last page of the Super brochure here: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_16.html
It looks to me to be on a flat lens board and the aperture ring is just in front of the board. I guess Graflex expected the user to have good eyesight and nimble fingers to be able to reach back inside the front standard and change f-stops.

I like blueribbontea's idea of moving the lens board mounting position to the front of the standard. I assume the modification doesn't prevent using shorter FL lenses back in the original board position.

Roger - I don't have a lens or board on my D, since it sadly has a torn shutter curtain and isn't useable. I seem to remember needing to tilt the lens and board slightly either up or down when removing it. I maybe be wrong about this, but you might experiment before building an extension board to see if you do need the board to be small enough to have room to tilt it. I mentioned the model aircraft plywood as a material for stacking. There is also a cabinet grade plywood available which is much thicker and would save a lot of gluing. Two pieces of 3/4" thickness would give you a good amount of extension. A cabinet shop might have scraps available. I agree that using long machine screws going entirely through the lens board is a good idea. I usually do this when I have a lens where the flange mounts on the front face of the lens board.

Len

blueribbontea
16-Dec-2013, 14:13
"I like blueribbontea's idea of moving the lens board mounting position to the front of the standard. I assume the modification doesn't prevent using shorter FL lenses back in the original board position."

Right, I just unclip and move the slider and take the lens off, and putting the other lens back in the original position, and you are right about having to tip it a bit.

mdarnton
16-Dec-2013, 14:32
The things we forget. In this case, I forgot I have a 15" tele-Optar (the 4x5 lens) apparently factory-mounted in a A board (for the 3-1/4x4-1/4" camera). Anyway, it does stick out the back quite a bit!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wrdU72pBJjY/Uq9SiDvtoUI/AAAAAAAAAVE/5xOxN6eQJuI/w800-h480-no/20131216_132034.jpg

Randy
16-Dec-2013, 17:46
Roger, put that lens to use on a different camera and get yourself a nice 190-210mm Tessar in barrel. I am having a blast with mine.

AtlantaTerry
16-Dec-2013, 17:55
Folks, Roger sent me a jpg of the lens stuffed into his camera's front. I've posted it at http://sdrv.ms/Jwsga3.

Nope. It is still Microsoft's SkyDrive and wants a password.

Dan Fromm
16-Dec-2013, 19:15
Sorry, Terry, I don't know what the problem is. I just checked, skydrive says it is shared with anyone who has the link you quoted.

Randy
17-Dec-2013, 06:49
Terry, try this (https://k6qjfw.bn1.livefilestore.com/y2msT_HRQ0DCYyg-HOgLlbHOp-3YurtN82M9EaOMtBE-poCmKMfIJT-ygmVzHBvfzayBXaCqhJzTSAyk3MppnHjvMnHFJSe8pkjB5LOHgUMvupKuU6NqsPB0sqpIsBM5YR3/Roger%20Hesketh's%20headache.jpg?psid=1)

AtlantaTerry
17-Dec-2013, 11:05
Terry, try this (https://k6qjfw.bn1.livefilestore.com/y2msT_HRQ0DCYyg-HOgLlbHOp-3YurtN82M9EaOMtBE-poCmKMfIJT-ygmVzHBvfzayBXaCqhJzTSAyk3MppnHjvMnHFJSe8pkjB5LOHgUMvupKuU6NqsPB0sqpIsBM5YR3/Roger%20Hesketh's%20headache.jpg?psid=1)

Yes, that worked. Thanks.

It looks very much like my 4x5 RB Auto Graflex except my hinged door/lens covering is above the lens, not to the side.

Randy
17-Dec-2013, 12:28
Terry, the picture is not oriented correctly, so the hinged door is indeed on top. Just tilt your head 90 degrees to the left :)

Roger Hesketh
17-Dec-2013, 13:53
I managed to have a little play today.

Randy I do have a board to mount the Optar lens on my Anniversary Speed Graphic and I do have a 5x7 B&L Tessar which came with the camera but it had been bugging me that I have not been able to find a convenient and easy way to mount the lens on to this camera until today.

I do not have any of the latches and catches and sliders that blueribbontea used to mount the lens nor did I want to do away with the door so I had to come up with a different non destructive way to mount the lens on the front of the bellows. That is so, if I want to, I can easily put the camera back the way it was.

Firstly I unscrewed the side flaps and folded them up against the inside of the door along with their mounting brackets and small screws securing them with tape initially brown parcel tape later changed to black insulation tape. The door will still operate normally and close properly with the tape on it.

If you look inside the bellows about an inch in you can see a ledge which runs round three sides. The top and two sides. Use can be made of those shelves to help make a light trap for a lens board to be inserted into the space. The lens board overlaps rather than sits in the orifice at the front of the bellows and a framework of light timber is made to insert into that hole.


Having struggled to upload pictures the other day I have taken Dan's advise and opened a Skydrive account if you click the link here the pictures should open up in another tab.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=3570A786901DA548&id=3570A786901DA548!109&v=3

The pieces of wood were tacked together with panel pins and screwed and glued to the reverse of the lens board. The lens board can then be inserted into the hole in the front of the bellows. Where it is a nice snug fit. So snug I can shake the camera facing downwards and the board does not come out. I tested this over the bed. However more security is needed than that. I did consider having an internal catch whereby one could reach in through the back of the camera and secure a catch fitted to the rear of the lens board. In the end however I decided this would be too much of a faff.

I have not done so yet but have decided now that the easiest way to secure the lens board is to drill two small holes in the opposite side frames of the front standard and also into but not though the frame of the lens board and then to insert a small metal peg to prevent the lens board falling out. The peg being a cut off nail. The head of which prevents the peg being inserted too far. A piece of cord is tied around the head of the nail the other end of which attaches to the lens board.

If you want to take off the lens board you pull out the pegs and pull out the lens board. To refit is the opposite.

The camera has not been modified in anyway apart from two small 2.5 mm diameter holes in the front standard frame and all the pieces are on hand were they cannot be lost including the little screws should you wish to replace the side walls and return the camera to it's original condition.

Both with the Optar and a Dallmeyer telephoto, shown in some of the pictures and which I also intend to mount on a lens board for this camera in this way, I managed to achieve infinity focus mounted on the front of the bellows. I am sure I will also be able to do so with the 9" Verito.


Roger

AtlantaTerry
18-Dec-2013, 01:42
Terry, the picture is not oriented correctly, so the hinged door is indeed on top. Just tilt your head 90 degrees to the left :)

Randy, I knew that, I was just pulling your leg! :)