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jumanji
10-Dec-2013, 00:49
Ok, I know Dagor and its clones (particularly Collinear) have only 4 air-glass surfaces, so the light loss would be small compare to other uncoated lenses. But how do they perform on chrome and color negative film? Are the result comparable to a coated (single, or even multi) lens? I have 150mm Collinear and 210mm Dagor. I tended to sell them to get a coated one for shooting on chrome and color negative film, but now I'm considering keeping them, if the result should be fine.
Any one has experience?

richardman
10-Dec-2013, 00:59
How about just shoot some color films and see for yourself?!

jumanji
10-Dec-2013, 01:08
It's a matter of time, and a little money as well :). Do it myself is best, but hearing from someone's experiences will save me a lot of time and a few sheets, especially when I have nothing but lenses in 4x5 now.

David A. Goldfarb
10-Dec-2013, 01:44
No problem at all. Dagors are fine for color.

Dan Fromm
10-Dec-2013, 08:30
No problem at all. Dagors are fine for color.

+1

jumanji
10-Dec-2013, 09:10
Thanks. That's enough for me. I will try them on color.
Anyone has an example? I'm curious.

Drew Wiley
10-Dec-2013, 14:35
Not all dagors are by any means the same, since they not only came in various focal lengths from various manufacturers, but were made over a very long time. The very last of them, the 355mm Kern multi-coat had the highest contrast and most accurate color transmission of ANY lens I have ever used, for any format. That makes sense, because there were only four air/glass interfaces, all multi-coated. But sometimes you can have just too much of a good thing, and I found
that particular lens to be just too contrasty for typical chrome work. So in the dagor category I switched over to the previous Kern single-coated version.

neil poulsen
10-Dec-2013, 22:04
Ansel Adams talks about and gives at least one B&W example of coated versus non-coated lenses in one of his books. (Probably the one on Camera & Lens.) But, not specifically Dagor lenses. His example shows a significant increase of values in shadows with the uncoated lens.

David A. Goldfarb
11-Dec-2013, 09:40
An old one, but easily accessible, since it's on my website--

106418

12" Gold Dot Dagor, f:14, 8x10" Fuji Astia

jumanji
11-Dec-2013, 10:24
Thanks all, especially David. That image is great.
Sound like the best bet would be a single coated Dagor.

E. von Hoegh
11-Dec-2013, 11:04
Ok, I know Dagor and its clones (particularly Collinear) have only 4 air-glass surfaces, so the light loss would be small compare to other uncoated lenses. But how do they perform on chrome and color negative film? Are the result comparable to a coated (single, or even multi) lens? I have 150mm Collinear and 210mm Dagor. I tended to sell them to get a coated one for shooting on chrome and color negative film, but now I'm considering keeping them, if the result should be fine.
Any one has experience?

By all means keep your lenses and try them!
I've used a 6" uncoated N.Y. Dagor on the old Fuji 50 in 4x5 and Kodachchome 64 (120). About the only trouble you are likely to have is in a high contrast scene with deep shadows, the black parts of the shadows can sometimes take on the dominant color cast in the scene, but a good (read: compendium, properly adjusted) lens shade will mostly cure this. I didn't much like F-50 but the 6x7cm Kodachromes were and are lovely.

I used a 30cm uncoated Berlin Dagor with 8x10 EPP 100, getting similar results, except the Ektachrome didn't make all the greens look like flourescent broccoli.
I used a multicoated Kern Dagor with 8x10 EPP 100, Ektachrome 120, Kodachrome 120 - I've never seen better transparencies. I didn't have Drew's trouble with too high contrast, perhaps because I chose the scenes carefully - I'd already learned some contrast lessons in B&W (with T-Max) from that lens.

Try your lenses, use the longest scale transparency film available - just imagine the "Dagor Look" translated to color, that's what you'll get. (smiling smiley)

Dan Fromm
11-Dec-2013, 11:16
jumanji, one of the reasons that dagors and other double anastigmats that consist of two cemented groups, i.e., that have only four air-glass interfaces were so popular before coating came in is that they have higher transmission, as you noted, and less veiling flare than other design types with more air-glass interfaces. The f/7.7 Aldis Uno isn't a double anastigmat but has only four air-glass interfaces too.

I have only one uncoated Dagor, a 45/9 CZJ Goerz Dagor, and two f/7.7 Unos, all uncoated. All three are nicely contrasty. I have a number of coated Dagor types, also nicely contrasty. And some pre-WW I f/6.3 Tessars (six air-glass interfaces) from CZJ and B&L, also nicely contrasty. I've shot one of my coated Dagor types, a Beryl-S, against a 210/9 Konica Hexanon GR-II (single-coated, twelve air-glass interfaces); the Beryl-S has much less veiling glare.

With Dagors and the like, condition (cement in good order, exterior surfaces not scratched, no haze or other crud on the glasses) seems to be more important than coating.

What condition are your Collinear and Dagor in? Have you shot them? If so, are the results unsatisfactory?

jumanji
11-Dec-2013, 13:38
For 4x5, I have 210mm Dagor and 150mm Collinear, both uncoated in shutter. I trade some Xray film for some Provia and would receive them next month.
For 8x10, I have two uncoated Dagor in barrel: 300mm (America) and 480mm (Berlin). I've received some EPN 100. Sinar shutter is on the way to my home.
The biggest problem is my meter was dead. I will have to send it to USA or Japan to repair.
I also have a coated Heliar in shutter. Still considering keeping both Heliar and Dagor in same 300mm FL or sell one. It's really hard to choose!

Dan Fromm
11-Dec-2013, 14:33
If you haven't tried your lenses out, you have no rational basis for choosing which to sell or which to replace.

E. von Hoegh
11-Dec-2013, 14:37
Another pointer re. Dagors, they have focus shift. Always check focus at the aperture you plan to use, also they don't get nicely sharp until somewhere between f:11 and f:16. Wide open they have a kind of veiled look due to spherical aberration.

Drew Wiley
11-Dec-2013, 15:06
On the late Kern/Schneider dagors : no focus shift by f/11, and really only an issue wide open.