How can I convert Fotoman 624 Pan Camera for makro use.

[DazrAus]

I have a Fotoman 624 camera with a Schneider Super Symmar Lens 5.6/110 lens. Am wanting to use this camera in a makro mode also. I can get spacers for camera from Fotoman yet may require many, plus costs, to get closer . Even then I don't think that I can get close enough - within few cms. Possibility has been raised of using a 35mm rail or bellows system. Am seeking any advice on this e.g. the lens has a focusing mount and assume will have to find rail/bellows onto which the fm and lens can be attached. Seeking any advice on possibilities of this, bellows or rails that could be used, and whether I may need some sort of adapter(s) to mount lens/fm and camera body to rail system. ( All a bit out of my depth at moment so seeking some advice) Thanks.:)

[Lachlan 717]

The spacers will not be a great option, IMO. The helical focus system will become less and less useful as you get closer. If you're not locked into the Fotoman, then something like an Ebony or a Shen Hao 6x24 (with 310mm bellows) would be a much better/easier option for this project.

If you are already committed to the Fotoman, you might have to consider having a custom bellow system made with a rear plate that will screw into the body, and somehow mount it all on a rail.

Either way, if you are going to go down this path, there are better options for the lens. The SSXL isn't the ideal macro lens. Perhaps consider some of the dedicated 120mm macro lenses?

[DazrAus]

The spacers will not be a great option, IMO. The helical focus system will become less and less useful as you get closer. If you're not locked into the Fotoman, then something like an Ebony or a Shen Hao 6x24 (with 310mm bellows) would be a much better/easier option for this project.

If you are already committed to the Fotoman, you might have to consider having a custom bellow system made with a rear plate that will screw into the body, and somehow mount it all on a rail.

Either way, if you are going to go down this path, there are better options for the lens. The SSXL isn't the ideal macro lens. Perhaps consider some of the dedicated 120mm macro lenses?

[DazrAus]

Thanks Lachlan for your thoughtful comments. I have been photographing terrariums with a Hasselblad CM 500 and an extension tube - work currently being exhibited here in Australia - and the results has been somewhat dreamy with the extension tube creating narrow depth of field and blurring in foreground and background. I am wanting a similar result in panoramic so may go with a custom bellow system. Happy to go with quirks of lens rather than totally clear macro images. So, thanks for your comments. Much appreciated!

[hoffner]

How do you want to see what is in focus with this camera?

[Lachlan 717]

Thanks Lachlan for your thoughtful comments. I have been photographing terrariums with a Hasselblad CM 500 and an extension tube - work currently being exhibited here in Australia - and the results has been somewhat dreamy with the extension tube creating narrow depth of field and blurring in foreground and background. I am wanting a similar result in panoramic so may go with a custom bellow system. Happy to go with quirks of lens rather than totally clear macro images. So, thanks for your comments. Much appreciated!

Where in Australia? I might be able to show you the Shen Hao 617 if you're not too far off the track!

[Jac@stafford.net]

Consider a rectangular custom extension that fits between the body and the lens cone. It would attach with four extra long lens cone fasteners.

Wood would be an adequate material.

[DazrAus]

Hi Lachlan I am in Castlemaine, Victoria.

[DazrAus]

Thank you - an interesting option!

[DazrAus]

With focusing ring still attached to lens - am happy to go with a narrow depth of field as may result - not sure of finished results ultimately with the specific lens being used for macro.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Perhaps someone can advise regarding twin element close-up diopter attachments.

[DazrAus]

With focusing ring still attached to lens - am happy to go with a narrow depth of field as may result - not sure of finished results ultimately with the specific lens being used for macro.

[hoffner]

So you want to use the optional gg to see what is in focus, then put the film in the camera and then - still on the same focus - take pictures in a terrarium?

[Jac@stafford.net]

So you want to use the optional gg to see what is in focus, then put the film in the camera and then - still on the same focus - take pictures in a terrarium?

Linhof had an interesting device (http://www.leicashop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/5/15094_1_a.jpg) used to frame close-ups for their Super Technikas, but it could be used with some other view cameras. The OP could choose his preferred distances, index them on a similar device and shoot without the ground glass.

The one pictured in the link has the frame mounted upside-down.

(Image from www.leicashop.com)

[hoffner]

Linhof had an interesting device (http://www.leicashop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/5/15094_1_a.jpg) used to frame close-ups for their Super Technikas, but it could be used with some other view cameras. The OP could choose his preferred distances, index them on a similar device and shoot without the ground glass.

The one pictured in the link has the frame mounted upside-down.

(Image from www.leicashop.com)

Yes, that could work with stone dead animals who do not move in the terrarium. Good luck!

[Lachlan 717]

So you want to use the optional gg to see what is in focus, then put the film in the camera and then - still on the same focus - take pictures in a terrarium?

Exactly what the Shen/Ebony do.

[Lachlan 717]

Hi Lachlan I am in Castlemaine, Victoria.

Melbourne for me. Mightn't be too difficult!

[hoffner]

Exactly what the Shen/Ebony do.

That's why they are used on macro pictures of moving objects in a terrarium, I suppose. Would they also work on butterflies, I wonder.

[hoffner]

Thanks Lachlan for your thoughtful comments. I have been photographing terrariums with a Hasselblad CM 500 and an extension tube - work currently being exhibited here in Australia - and the results has been somewhat dreamy with the extension tube creating narrow depth of field and blurring in foreground and background. I am wanting a similar result in panoramic so may go with a custom bellow system. Happy to go with quirks of lens rather than totally clear macro images. So, thanks for your comments. Much appreciated!

Still curious - how do you get a tripod with the Fotoman camera mounted on it to the terrarium?

[Dan Fromm]

Linhof had an interesting device (http://www.leicashop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/5/15094_1_a.jpg) used to frame close-ups for their Super Technikas, but it could be used with some other view cameras. The OP could choose his preferred distances, index them on a similar device and shoot without the ground glass.)

The device is called a focusing frame. Focusing frames are discussed extensively in Kodak Publications N12-A Closeup Photography and N-16 Closeup Photography and Photomacrography.

I did the thought experiment of using a focusing frame on a Speed Graphic years ago. Several major limitations. There has to be a clear area around the subject so the frame can be positioned around the subject without disturbing it. The subject plane has to be accessible; from the outside, everything in a terrarium is inaccessible. And the subject, if live, has to tolerate close approach.

Shooting immobile subjects in terraria can be done with the camera on tripod outside of the terrarium and with focusing on the GG. This will work with some reptiles and amphibians.

Re the need to get close, well, with a 110, shooting at 1:1 needs the lens' front node (very near the diaphragm) to be 220 mm from the subject. Whether this is possible depends on the subject and the terrarium. Lower magnifications will need greater working distances.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I did the thought experiment of using a focusing frame[...]

Thought experiment, eh? Can you post an image to evince your mental experience? :)

[Dan Fromm]

Thought experiment, eh? Can you post an image to evince your mental experience? :)
Y'know, until now I thought that you could read minds. Or at least that you had an imagination.

In fact I cobbled up a couple of crude prototypes. Short answer, not practical for what I had in mind to do. Longer answer, not practical for most other applications. The only really successful focusing frames I'm aware of are stands like the Leica BOOWU, and these are really for copying papers, not for closeup photography in general.

Many problems. Its hard to see where the plane of best focus is. The frame bumps into things.

The right tool for closeup work, especially when the subject is inaccesible (e.g., behind glass) and may be mobile, is a single lens reflex camera. The OP is asking his very nice point-and-shoot to do things it isn't particularly good at.

[Michael Alpert]

( All a bit out of my depth at moment so seeking some advice) Thanks.:)

DazrAus,

Everyone here wants to be helpful to you. I wonder why someone hasn't yet told you that you are using the wrong camera to do what you want to do. The Fotoman is going to always seriously limit you in close-up photography. Either that or it's not going to work at all. It's the wrong tool. If you were to find a 6x12 back for a 4x5 view camera with a long bellows, you would need to crop the image top and/or bottom to achieve 6x24 proportions, but you would still be using roll film. And you would have available all the advantages of a view camera (movements, extension, accurate composition). Depth-of-field is based on aperture and image size, so almost any decent large-format lens that has a short focal length will work well enough for your purpose. I strongly suggest that you find a photographer in your area who uses a view camera (monorail) or field camera. With an hour or two of hands-on instruction, you will learn a hundred times more than what you can learn vicariously from forums and websites.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Y'know, until now I thought that you could read minds. Or at least that you had an imagination.

Clearly, you have overrated my capabilities.

Back to the topic, IMHO we should encourage the OP to experiment.

Not all large(ish) photos most be made of still objects using a tripod.

[Dan Fromm]

Clearly, you have overrated my capabilities.

Thanks for the correction, I'll try to remember it.

I understand the OP's desire to use the camera he has, agree with Mr. Alpert that it is far from the ideal tool. I know a man who bred Anacondas. Long snakes that don't move much. I can see wanting to shoot snoozing snakes or crocodilians (high aspect ratio, don't always move much, although I once saw a very young American Alligator leap nearly its own length vertically to snatch a dragonfly) or lizards or salamanders with a camera whose native format is long and low.

[hoffner]

I love this thread. It's a pure hallucination.

[Jim Noel]

A simple + diopter lens in front of the taking lens will do the job. If you are lucky and have a real old time photo store, they may have them as well as a lip on adapter. If not, go to you optician and purchase a +1, +2 and +4. You can jerry-rig them in front of the lens with tubes and/or tape. With these three you can have +1,+2,+3,+4.+5,+6,+7.
The higher the number, the closer the focus and the more enlargement on the film. Your aperture will not change.
There will be distractors, but I have been using this system for 70+ years on all types of cameras.

[hoffner]

Now that's truly encouraging. I wonder if others ever considered it.

[Dan Fromm]

A simple + diopter lens in front of the taking lens will do the job. If you are lucky and have a real old time photo store, they may have them as well as a lip on adapter. If not, go to you optician and purchase a +1, +2 and +4. You can jerry-rig them in front of the lens with tubes and/or tape. With these three you can have +1,+2,+3,+4.+5,+6,+7.
The higher the number, the closer the focus and the more enlargement on the film. Your aperture will not change.
There will be distractors, but I have been using this system for 70+ years on all types of cameras.

Jim, getting the magnification isn't the big problem. Getting the subject in focus is the problem. Composing is another problem.

All kidding aside, much of the discussion on focusing frames in the Kodak publications I referred to is on how to use an Instamatic closeup. In it + diopter lenses are recommended as the way to get the magnification.

Hoffner, have you ever tried + diopters? Way back when I paid attention to the biennial cycle of educational articles that Modern Photography used to run. One of the articles that came back ever other year was "Diopters or extension tubes?". The answer was always that it depends on the lens; the only way to know which would give better results with the lens in hand was to try both with it. After I got my little Nikkormat with a 50/1.4 Nikkor I bought some Nikon diopters and tried shooting closeup. Field curvature was a killer. My solution was, as soon as I had the funds, to get a 55/3.5 MicroNikkor. More recently, I tried diopters on a Canon S8 camera, with lousy results. My solutions was, as soon as I had the funds, to get a Beaulieu and a 36/1.4 MacroSwitar in H8Rx mount. After the mount was trimmed a bit the rig's far focusing distance was a couple of feet. Gotta use the right tools, which is not to say that Jim got poor results. As I said, it all depends on the lens.

[hoffner]

Jim, getting the magnification isn't the big problem. Getting the subject in focus is the problem. Composing is another problem.

snip.

There it goes - the 70+ years of experience did not solve the problem of the OP. Now that is a surprise, isn't it?
Dan, I never tried a + diopter on a Fotoman camera in order to take macro pictures of living animals in a terrarium. Guess why.

[DazrAus]

Hello everyone. Thank you for the information. Yes, certainly an experimental approach and yes may be pushing boundaries of Fotoman camera - and interested in what has been posted. Lots of food for thought. First of all terrariums hold plants. Have been photographing these with Hasselblad CM500 and extension tube. End results while not optically great suit purpose as photos look really interesting with splashes of light, narrow depth of field, subtle tones, and printed on rag paper have a rich painterly feel - been exhibited in two solo shows:http://www.darrondavies.com/terraria.html. So, keen to see if I can get into similar territory with Fotoman - much larger images. Maybe custom rail, diopter sounds also interesting option. But aware may be pushing it optically - but generally that's what I did with the Hasselblad and results, after printing and framing, have looked really interesting. Cheers.

[DazrAus]

Yep not too far - perhaps catch up - direct contact details (webpage) in last post

[Lachlan 717]

Let me know when you're next heading to Melb and see if we can catch up. I'll show you a couple of options.

[hoffner]

I feel somehow sad for Dan and the rest of us, for that matter, that we won't see the secret couple of options.

[Lachlan 717]

Bit like in "A few good men": You can't handle the options"...

[DazrAus]

Still a lot of ideas here - thinking them through - and will post any finished results / decisions to forum.