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Eric Biggerstaff
4-Dec-2013, 14:52
Well, Alan Ross posted this on his Facebook page and so did Ilford, so I thought I would post it here, looks like the MG FB family has been updated.

BORN, ESTABLISHED, DEVELOPED! … A NEW ILFORD MULTIGRADE FIBRE BASE FAMILY

ILFORD PHOTO announce a new range of variable contrast Baryta Fibre Base papers, a completely new and improved MULTIGRADE FB and a new COOLTONE FB paper to complement the existing MULTIGRADE FB WARMTONE.
Read the full Press Release at:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/pressroom/article.asp?n=174
and visit http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/producttype.asp?n=5&t=Photographic+Papers for item availability

jeroldharter
4-Dec-2013, 14:57
I wonder if it isn't Kentmere rebranded at a higher price point?

Richard Wasserman
4-Dec-2013, 15:04
I was wondering the same thing. I was never fond of Ilford MGIV and used a lot of Kentmere. It will interesting to try the new papers (as soon as my new darkroom is up and running)


I wonder if it isn't Kentmere rebranded at a higher price point?

Merg Ross
4-Dec-2013, 15:54
Hi Eric, thanks for posting. I was about to place a large order for paper --- I think I'll wait until testing the "new" Ilford! Sounds interesting.

Michael Alpert
4-Dec-2013, 17:30
I wonder if it isn't Kentmere rebranded at a higher price point?

It seems that every time a new product is introduced on this forum, someone immediately slaps it down. It might make more sense to test the new Ilford paper and then post an evaluation based on actual experience.

Eric Biggerstaff
4-Dec-2013, 17:56
I switched to Foma several years ago, namely because Ilford just didn't tone well for me. However, I will be placing a sizable order for this paper as I am very interested. Ilford makes great products and if this tones as well as Alan says (and I am sure it does), then this may win me back!

ShannonG
4-Dec-2013, 18:01
Im also wondering if they are renaming the Kentmere,,looks like ill have to get a box and compare.

Oren Grad
4-Dec-2013, 18:04
There are two new papers here, and to the extent that one can tell from the sensitometric properties as described in the data sheets, neither is repackaged Kentmere anything.

The new FB Cooltone is the big news for me - the curve looks like it's going to be much friendlier to rollfilm TX than MG IV FB or the new MG FB Classic. I use a lot of the existing RC Cooltone, and it will be interesting to see how close the FB emulsion is.

But overall, the announcement was a big and very pleasant surprise. The introduction of these papers confirms that there's still R&D going on in silver materials for more than just maintaining QC on existing products. I'll happily look forward to trying both of them.

Merg Ross
4-Dec-2013, 18:04
..... I will be placing a sizable order for this paper as I am very interested.

Freestyle will be receiving their first order on December 18, 2013. The new items will be on their website on December 8. I'll be in line with you, Eric.

Andrew O'Neill
4-Dec-2013, 18:22
he new MULTIGRADE FB CLASSIC has also been developed to better respond to traditional toning techniques than the product it replaces.
Both papers will take a richer tone in selenium than MGIV FB - a real boon.
The toning test was impressive - at 1:23 even a print immersed for 1 minute showed a noticeable change in image color, but my favorite is in the 4' range. A color I could never get with MGIV FB.

That's great to hear as FBIV was like trying to tone a block of cement. Loved the paper, but as far as toning went... I'll definitely give this new stuff a try. Maybe it'll replace my long lost Forte Polygrade V... Thank you Ilford!

Eric Biggerstaff
4-Dec-2013, 19:03
It is not rebadged Kentmere as far as I can tell. Should be fun!

dsphotog
4-Dec-2013, 19:27
Great to see new b&w silver based products.
Cheers to Ilford!

Ginette
4-Dec-2013, 21:36
Read about the new papers and found some prices on silverprint.co.uk who list the 2 new papers at the same price as the MG4FB. This will be a very good news if the new papers doesn't fetch the high price of the Ilford FB Warmtone. Any other input on pricing?

dave_whatever
5-Dec-2013, 01:22
The introduction of these papers confirms that there's still R&D going on in silver materials for more than just maintaining QC on existing products.

Of course it could be the case that the introduction of the new papers and the pulling of FB MGIV could actually be related to some insurmountable raw material supply problem. They didn't mention these new papers on the recent tour but given what they did say bout the amount of R&D required just to tread water with existing products I wouldn't be surprised.

Oren Grad
5-Dec-2013, 07:58
Of course it could be the case that the introduction of the new papers and the pulling of FB MGIV could actually be related to some insurmountable raw material supply problem. They didn't mention these new papers on the recent tour but given what they did say bout the amount of R&D required just to tread water with existing products I wouldn't be surprised.

Could be, as far as FB Classic. The FB Cooltone paper is a new item, though we don't know how close a cousin it is to the existing RC Cooltone emulsion.

Keith Tapscott.
5-Dec-2013, 09:30
I wonder if it isn't Kentmere rebranded at a higher price point?I expect the new Ilford papers to be a different coating altogether.

I hope that Ilford introduce a new film soon, even if it is an improvement to an existing established film such as FP4 Plus.

How about FP4 Super/FP5? :D

jeroldharter
5-Dec-2013, 09:52
It seems that every time a new product is introduced on this forum, someone immediately slaps it down. It might make more sense to test the new Ilford paper and then post an evaluation based on actual experience.

I was just asking a question that seems pretty reasonable. Ilford buys Kentmere, they retire its best product which was a relatively inexpensive a cold tone paper that is responsive to selenium and then announce a new product that is a cold tone paper responsive to selenium.

Kentmere FP VC FB was my favorite paper so I would hardly consider my question a slap down. Hard to test a new product that is not yet available.

Oren Grad
5-Dec-2013, 10:26
I was just asking a question that seems pretty reasonable. Ilford buys Kentmere, they retire its best product which was a relatively inexpensive a cold tone paper that is responsive to selenium and then announce a new product that is a cold tone paper responsive to selenium.

Kentmere FP VC FB was my favorite paper so I would hardly consider my question a slap down. Hard to test a new product that is not yet available.

Do take a look at the respective data sheets - the sensitometric specifications are quite different. I've used the Kentmere, still have some left. FWIW, the existing Ilford MG RC Cooltone, which is probably the RC paper I use most, is radically different from the Kentmere. If the new FB Cooltone behaves anything like the RC, it too will be very different.

Ginette
5-Dec-2013, 11:43
Read about the new papers and found some prices on silverprint.co.uk who list the 2 new papers at the same price as the MG4FB. This will be a very good news if the new papers doesn't fetch the high price of the Ilford FB Warmtone. Any other input on pricing?
I have a feedback today from Canada distributor (Amplis Foto), both papers will be available very soon and both Classic and Cooltone pricing close to the MG4.

Sal Santamaura
7-Dec-2013, 09:09
Do take a look at the respective data sheets - the sensitometric specifications are quite different...Agreed, they don't seem at all similar. Comparing curves and dmax:


http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20131161220152705.pdf


http://www.kentmere.co.uk/Webfiles/20093161412372020.pdf

Multigrade FB Cooltone seems to top out at 2.0 and exhibits much less toe compared to Fineprint VC FB, which goes to 2.2.

ISO contrast ranges by numbered filter aren't close, nor are their ISO speeds. While HARMAN might have incorporated aspects of Fineprint's characteristics into Cooltone, it seems very unlikely that this new paper is simply Fineprint re-packaged.

Roger Cole
7-Dec-2013, 10:30
I don't think anyone thought Cooltone FB would be old Kentmere. I think the idea was that the new FB Classic might be the old Kentmere but that seems to not be the case either.

Good news all around (even if I would prefer the old grade speeds in the sense that grades 4 and 5 were exactly one stop slower which made moving up in contrast easier, at least for a midtone starting point.)

Roger Cole
7-Dec-2013, 10:32
I expect the new Ilford papers to be a different coating altogether.

I hope that Ilford introduce a new film soon, even if it is an improvement to an existing established film such as FP4 Plus.

How about FP4 Super/FP5? :D

Other than incremental improvements of existing products I don't see room for a new emulsion. Well, ok - a true IR, which Simon commented over on APUG once they could easily do, even brought up the idea to the board but they decided there wasn't enough market, or maybe a slow film, slower than Pan F+ and with less contrast, for those clamoring for Efke 25 or APX 25. I rarely would use such a slow film but if I did I'd be more interested in something like Pan-X was.

What there IS room for, IMNSHO, are a few of their films in other sizes. Namely, I'd love to see XP2 Super and Delta 400 in sheets. Delta 400 used to be made in sheets and the pre-Super XP2 was as well. Bring out XP2 Super in sheets and I'll be order C41 chems for the Jobo the next day.

Sal Santamaura
7-Dec-2013, 11:17
I don't think anyone thought Cooltone FB would be old Kentmere...


...Ilford buys Kentmere, they retire its best product which was a relatively inexpensive a cold tone paper that is responsive to selenium and then announce a new product that is a cold tone paper responsive to selenium...Someone did. :D:D

Andrew O'Neill
7-Dec-2013, 11:31
What there IS room for, IMNSHO, are a few of their films in other sizes. Namely, I'd love to see XP2 Super and Delta 400 in sheets. Delta 400 used to be made in sheets and the pre-Super XP2 was as well. Bring out XP2 Super in sheets and I'll be order C41 chems for the Jobo the next day.

I'd love to see SFX in 4x5.

koh303
7-Dec-2013, 11:39
Why not ask for a special cut XP2 when Ilford opens their ULF order sheets for the next run?

Roger Cole
7-Dec-2013, 12:10
Someone did. :D:D

I still took that as referring to the FB Classic, but I suppose "cooltone paper responsive to selenium.." may have meant Cooltone. The response to selenium being one of the things that's supposed to have changed in the new Classic, I took it to refer to that - a neutral/cool paper that cools more in selenium.

Roger Cole
7-Dec-2013, 12:12
I'd love to see SFX in 4x5.

That too. I've not used it but I seem to recall reading it's almost as IR as the Efke stuff was. I have quite a stash of Efke IR in both rolls and 4x5 in the freezer. Well "quite a stash" for me anyway. Couple of boxes of 4x5 and maybe 10-20 rolls each in 120 and 35mm, I forget exactly how much I bought.


Why not ask for a special cut XP2 when Ilford opens their ULF order sheets for the next run?

That is an idea that honestly had not occurred to me. I suppose I don't want it THAT much, the appeal would be being able to standardize across formats on that very versatile and easy-to-scan film.

Oren Grad
7-Dec-2013, 12:33
Why not ask for a special cut XP2 when Ilford opens their ULF order sheets for the next run?

Because it's coated only on roll film acetate base, not on sheet film polyester base. XP1 was offered as sheet film long ago, but IIRC XP2 never was - certainly XP2 Super has never been offered as sheet film.

Roger Cole
7-Dec-2013, 16:07
Because it's coated only on roll film acetate base, not on sheet film polyester base. XP1 was offered as sheet film long ago, but IIRC XP2 never was - certainly XP2 Super has never been offered as sheet film.

Ah, then it was XP1 - sorry, I just knew that a chromogenic film was offered. I'd forgotten there ever was an XP1.

Merg Ross
7-Dec-2013, 22:49
Freestyle will be receiving their first order on December 18, 2013. The new items will be on their website on December 8. I'll be in line with you, Eric.

Freestyle now taking orders. Paper available December 13, 2013 per website.

Eric Biggerstaff
8-Dec-2013, 06:58
Thanks Merg, I notice B&H is also listing it.

I am going to place my order this week at Freestyle.

Bruce Barlow
8-Dec-2013, 07:48
This reminds me of when I was testing papers and developers oh-so-many years ago.

Darkroom Techniques ran an article "testing" one of the papers I was testing. They did all the curves and tests, and then concluded that the paper "probably would make superb prints." But they never made one print to see what it looked like.

I burned the magazine while preforming a ritual dance around the fire.

On the other hand, I never made one curve. I chose not to even own a step-wedge. A friend told me I should print step-wedges. Why? I responded. I don't make pictures of step wedges. I wanted to see what real pictures looked like, and compare papers that way. I did. It worked. The archived articles are at bbarlow.wordpress.com. I would reread them, except that so many fine papers are now gone, I would probably weep.

Go Ilford!

Sal Santamaura
8-Dec-2013, 08:54
...The archived articles are at bbarlow.wordpress.com. I would reread them, except that so many fine papers are now gone, I would probably weep...I read them when they were first published and re-read them not too long ago. Don't weep -- Ilforbrom Galerie is still the same and very much available. :D:D

Bruce Barlow
8-Dec-2013, 10:18
Yeah, Galerie is way up there in the favorite category.

And, about Ilford - when I was doing the tests, in response to my inquiry the beloved Wendy Erickson sent me 100-sheet boxes of 8x10 Galerie grades 2 and 3 for free. While it did not bias my tests, which I did blind, it made me an Ilford fan for life if not longer.

Go Ilford!

Drew Wiley
9-Dec-2013, 09:48
This is extremely good news to me. I'm very interested in how this product takes gold toner, which MGIV was relatively unresponsive to. Sounds like Ilford is on the
right track, and I'll no doubt purchase quite a bit of this.

Merg Ross
18-Dec-2013, 22:57
Received my order from Freestyle this morning, mixed sizes of both papers. All of it is boxed, even the ten sheet quantity. I really like that feature, wish Adox would do the same.

Leaving town tomorrow, Happy Holidays and best wishes for 2014 to all the members here!

Merg

alavergh
13-Feb-2014, 21:15
How this paper going with everybody?

I just got a 25 pack of this stuff, 8x10 glossy from freestyle. I'm eager to see how it looks. Iced one relatively little toning, but that's going to be going into each of my final prints.

Eric Biggerstaff
14-Feb-2014, 08:05
So far so good, there are a few threads that have reviews of the paper, do a search and you will find some good information and feedback.

Jeff Dexheimer
14-Feb-2014, 08:23
I amusing MGWT. Seems like it's been around for a while though. I really like the images I get with it toned on selenium.

Toyon
18-Feb-2014, 14:29
I like Classic, it is very responsive to selenium and gives good blacks. The only "fault" is that it dries pretty curly.

Drew Wiley
18-Feb-2014, 14:37
The more I get accustomed to the new paper, the more I like it. I'm still on my first 16x20 box of Cooltone. The curliness seems related to humidity, both in terms
of fresh paper and developed. Now that we've had a bit of rain in the air, it's lying relatively flat. No big deal anyway.

alavergh
21-Feb-2014, 22:43
So, I was a little startled when I opened my 25 pack of the classic, 8x10, glossy. There was a foil package of stickers that said something about ilford genuine paper or something. Anybody know what the intent is for these? Where do they envision us putting these things? On the back of the print?

Kirk Gittings
21-Feb-2014, 23:00
Maybe on your camera, darkcloth or photovest like a Nascar team :)

Jac@stafford.net
21-Feb-2014, 23:11
They are a promotional and educational thing. See here: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/gelatin/silvergelatin.asp

Are they big enough to use as pasties?

alavergh
22-Feb-2014, 17:28
Ah yes, that's is! That link that was posted.

Should I even consider putting this on my prints? Do you actually put it on the paper?

It's just interesting. I suppose the fact that a print is on fiber paper is part of the art these days...

NER
23-Feb-2014, 12:45
So, I was a little startled when I opened my 25 pack of the classic, 8x10, glossy. There was a foil package of stickers that said something about ilford genuine paper or something. Anybody know what the intent is for these? Where do they envision us putting these things? On the back of the print?

On the backing board.

N. Riley
http://normanrileyphotography.com

hmf
23-Feb-2014, 19:42
Ah yes, that's is! That link that was posted.

Should I even consider putting this on my prints? Do you actually put it on the paper?

It's just interesting. I suppose the fact that a print is on fiber paper is part of the art these days...
It won't be long before silver gelatin will be considered an alt process :(

ROL
24-Feb-2014, 10:16
It won't be long before silver gelatin will be considered an alt process :(

You need to get out more. It already is.

ROL
24-Feb-2014, 10:18
Should I even consider putting this on my prints? Do you actually put it on the paper?

Right in the center of the print. That way nobody will mistake it for anything else. It pays to advertise. ;)

Drew Wiley
24-Feb-2014, 11:20
Harman (Ilford) seems to be doing pretty good. I don't think silver gelatin is anywhere near becoming considered "Alt". At least you're getting something for your
money instead of a blank piece of sized paper. Maybe, "Made with real silver instead of food coloring" would be an appropriate cynical sticker to put on the print.
Who cares. An ugly print is an ugly print by any method.

alavergh
26-Feb-2014, 00:06
Right in the center of the print. That way nobody will mistake it for anything else. It pays to advertise. ;)


Oh yeah, I love it! Lol!

resurgance
6-Dec-2014, 23:43
So far every time I produce a print that I'm wrapt with that I would consider 'stickering' it goes under the weighted blotting paper after drying face up for a while on some mesh. I wake up the next morning with a fresh set of eyes and almost instantly pick holes in it, find something I overlooked or could do better. Not stickering this one. Another month passes before I get time to have a decent printing session and by then I've got another few negatives to work on and on it goes.... Maybe one day I'll make a print worth the silver gelatin sticker without hesitating :) Today was my first real obvious result from drag bleaching, using warm tone, looking forward to the new paper as I hear it tones nice. This toning business itself is hard case, as taking so long to do even with sodium sulphite I can imagine it takes years and years to a point where one can semi accurately envision a good way of toning each print.