Very weird 8x10 Hp5 processing problem..

[Dennis]

I have a problem processing 8x10 Hp5 that I am clueless about.
First let me say I am not a newbie, I have been processing 8x10 film for 30 years.

I process a variety of 8x10 film. My norm is Fp4 or TMY or Arista EDU. I process in trays, only a few sheets at a time, and I have fined tuned my technique so that I very rarely get a scratch or any mottling. For about 7 years now I have used LFN wetting agent before hanging film to dry. Before that I used photo flo for many years.

A couple of weeks ago I processed some film for a friend. Mostly Hp5 and one sheet of TXP. My normal routine, extra careful because it was someone else's film.
The TXP came out absolutely perfect on base and emulsion. Not a scratch or streak or any mottling at all. The Hp5 all came out looking horrible with strange patterns of residue on the base and finger prints that looked etched into the base. It was covered in straight vertical scratches on the base ( that didn't print). The biggest problem were the smears of residue all over every sheet's base. All the emulsion sides were fine. I tried everything to get the residue marks off, alcohol, rewashing, refixing with hardner, re wetting with photoflo instead of LFN. Nothing affected the problem. I wrote it off as an anomaly and hoped never to see it again.

Yesterday same friend brought another box of film, 3 sheets TXP and 4 sheets Hp5. I did as before, presoaked, processed in Xtol, stopped with a little stop bath and fixed in kodak rapid fix. I washed them in an archival washer and wetted them in photoflo and hung them to dry without heat. The same thing happened as the first time. The 3 TXP sheets were absolutely flawless. No mark no mottling no scratches, they are beautiful. The Hp5 looks like film from Hell. Covered in residue patterns that seem to have texture etched into the base and they are all covered in the light vertical scratches.

I have no idea why this is happening and I have never seen it on any other film. Anyone have similar experience or a theory?

thanks Dennis Purdy

[Jac@stafford.net]

Did your friend load the TXP holders, or did someone else?
Did your friend load the HP5 holders?

I ask because we have to know for certain whether the HP5 problems were from gross mishandling.

I would hate to think it was a factory QC issue.

[StoneNYC]

Agreed, I would ask your friend ...

1 where he got the film.

2. Was it sealed or a partially used box

3. Is he loading himself

Because it sounds like it's user error not processor error. I doubt factory ilford film would come with those issues their QC is top notch.

[Dennis]

I think I figured it out. I went to the local film lab here called "Blue Moon" and they said they get the same thing, only on Hp5, and even worse on 120 film. They have come to the conclusion that it is caused by processing in Xtol. There is some weird reaction or bad juju processing Hp5 in Xtol stock. It is strange that I wouldn't have read of that by now and I have processed 120 Hp5 without problem but I think that has to be it. It is causing some sort of softness or sensitivity to the base material which makes it prone to scratching and the strange etched residue marks. At least it is something else to test.
Both boxes of film are new. He was shooting side by side same subject TXP vs Hp5 to see if the difference in quality is worth the difference in price.
Thanks for the responses
Dennis

[StoneNYC]

I think I figured it out. I went to the local film lab here called "Blue Moon" and they said they get the same thing, only on Hp5, and even worse on 120 film. They have come to the conclusion that it is caused by processing in Xtol. There is some weird reaction or bad juju processing Hp5 in Xtol stock. It is strange that I wouldn't have read of that by now and I have processed 120 Hp5 without problem but I think that has to be it. It is causing some sort of softness or sensitivity to the base material which makes it prone to scratching and the strange etched residue marks. At least it is something else to test.
Both boxes of film are new. He was shooting side by side same subject TXP vs Hp5 to see if the difference in quality is worth the difference in price.
Thanks for the responses
Dennis

Ilford has a thing you can send them any film with issues and they will analyze it for free. Send them a sheet or two and ask them what they think?

[Andrew O'Neill]

They have come to the conclusion that it is caused by processing in Xtol.

Sorry but No way. I have processed 35mm, 120, 4x5, and 8x10 in Xtol stock, 1+1, 1+2, 1+3, and NEVER had a problem. For sheets films I used trays and tubes. It sounds more like a bad batch of film.

[mdarnton]

Sounds like your friend needs to wash his hands before he handles film, or better, get himself some cotton gloves. We have that problem in my field: some people are rotters and their fingers corrode brass, some are polishers and buff it up. The rotters also tend to leave fingerprints on sensitive things--wood, tools, etc--that "develop" over time. You'd be surprised how quickly they can destroy a wooden tool handle.

How old is your friend? Usually these are males up to about 25-30 years old, and then they grow out of it. If they're players, not makers, the breath from their nose can dissolve the part of violin's varnish directly under their nose.

[Gary Beasley]

Did you process the HP5 in the same soup as the TXP? There may be a reaction with the byproducts from the TXP in the developer however unlikely.

[andrewkittredge]

I've experienced a similar problem with HP5+ and xtol–strange water-mark looking streaks on the base side of the film which (thankfully) don't show in prints. Refixing and rewashing with distilled water doesn't seem to help.

[Patrick13]

Logic dictates that if the internet hate machine isn't belching out an endless stream of invective then the problem must be local and rare.

Therefore the source of the original problem must be mishandling of the film prior to development, perhaps even prior to the purchase and the streaky appearance must be to local water conditions (which change throughout the year, mine does anyways).

Just guessing, I've not read of anything systemic like this before that wasn't related to a general failure of the medium (Foma 200) or a bad batch of juice (Xtol 1L packs).

I hope we find out a real cause one day, I love a mystery.

[MIke Sherck]

Since the problem doesn't seem to be widespread, you'll have to be systematic to have any hope of tracking it down. As a start, I'd
1. Process a sheet straight from the box, as has been suggested. If that turns out all right,
2. Load one of your holders from the box and shoot it. If that turns out all right,
3. Load one of your friend's holders from the box and shoot it in your camera. If that turns out all right,
4. Load one of your friend's holders from the box and shoot it in his camera. If that turns out all right,
5. Have your friend load one of your holders from the box and you shoot it in your camera. If that turns out all right,
6. Have your friend load one of his holders from the box and you shoot it in your camera.

And so on. Somewhere along the line you'll figure it out positively. Uses up some film, though. :)

Mike

[gleaf]

I second the suggestion to send one or two to ilford for analysis. Why guess when you can have hard data. If you have a handy failure analysis lab they can do lots of things... the price will be far more than postage to ilford. I am sure everyone responding is correct on what can happen. It happened to them or a friend exactly as they say. Scratches are not as big a curiosity to me as the gooy deposit of somethings. Ilford for data. The low cost facts for the cost of postage and a bit of time.

[Michael Clark]

Hot periods during the summer I use thin latex gloves to load film when useing the film tent.It can get really hot and humid in there.

[polyglot]

There's a thread both here on LFPF and another on APUG mentioning issues with recent HP5. I think it presents as lots of little straight scratches on the base side that don't print. I don't know if anyone has sent any samples to Ilford yet, but you might be seeing effects related to whatever defect those people were seeing.

[snay1345]

Does the scratches look like these?

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/9522582882_2cd3a282a4.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7384/9522582212_b1536be15a.jpg

[Dennis]

Sorry I didn't come back to this thread. Turns out even though the lab I talked to told me it is an xtol problem I have since found I have the same problem with Beutlers and D76.
It does look pretty much exactly like snay1345 is showing on the second jpg with the roll film. That weird band of texture showing in the sky above the house on his film.
I get that unevenly on the base of the 8x10 and now I am trying to figure it out I am using 4x5 and getting the same thing.
I have tried both Kodak photo flo and Edwal LFN, both in distilled water. I actually think the problem is in the developer stage.
It is only on the base. It seems like perhaps the base is getting extra sensitive.
I have been wearing gloves and processing one sheet at a time can't figure it out..
Dennis

[bob carnie]

plus 1


Sorry but No way. I have processed 35mm, 120, 4x5, and 8x10 in Xtol stock, 1+1, 1+2, 1+3, and NEVER had a problem. For sheets films I used trays and tubes. It sounds more like a bad batch of film.

[StoneNYC]

Does the scratches look like these?

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/9522582882_2cd3a282a4.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7384/9522582212_b1536be15a.jpg

I've seen that kind of issue on that second photo on Acros100, it was from a bunch or rolls of 120 from a trade with another person. But never with new film.

Not sure what that means, I have a sneaking suspension that it's moisture from refrigeration that gets into the emulsion from improper storage.

[Gary L. Quay]

Sorry but No way. I have processed 35mm, 120, 4x5, and 8x10 in Xtol stock, 1+1, 1+2, 1+3, and NEVER had a problem. For sheets films I used trays and tubes. It sounds more like a bad batch of film.

Blue Moon runs an excellent lab. One wonders if environmental factors are at work were in Portland. Something in the water, maybe.

[Gregg Cook]

yep, something in the water.... I'm like one of the other posters, I've used HP5 and xtol for years. Don't presoak it. I've found more handling errors on presoaked film than all my other HP5 combined. a presoak with funny unfiltered water could be your answer.

[Drew Wiley]

Some alternate possibilities. Fingers might have been contaminated with sweat or fixer or something else foreign when handling the film. Fixer would have affected
the emulsion, of course, not the base. The gloves, if vinyl, might have had plasticizer (a big no no -switch to nitrile gloves, unpowdered, of course). But I've never had any kind of problem with HP5.