Linhof Tech V: Syncing modern flash via right-side flashmount?

[MonkeyBrain]

Hi, I need to attach a Pocket-Wizard-style radio-slave transmitter (actually YongNuo) to my Tech V in order to use it with a multiple studio strobe set-up.

The most obvious solution that occurs to me is to connect the shutter to the transmitter via a PC to female hotshoe cable, but then I'm left with this thing dangling off the front of the camera, which is not exactly convenient for hand-held work (and I always shoot handheld). If the viewfinder wasnt already occupying the top accessory shoe then I could at least put the transmitter there to secure it out of the way, but as I always shoot handheld, I always use the viewfinder too, so that's out of the question.

I just noticed there's some kind of flash mount on the right side of the camera (on the rangefinder). It'd be great if I could just get a double female hotshoe and attach the transmitter here, but presumably this is just a mount for a flash bracket, and doesnt actually transmit any sync signal to the flash (i.e. even if I could find a way to mount my radio transmitter there, I'd still need to run a cable from the PC socket on the shutter in order to make the flash sync)?

Can anyone suggest a more convenient way of making this set-up work than having several inches of cable hanging off the lens (which at best will continuously fall out due to the weight of the transmitter on the end, as used to happen with my graflex, and at worst will probably whip round and slap the lens or something when I move the camera during a shoot)?

Any suggestions appreciated...

[Bob Salomon]

It has not been made for many years but the mount that mates to the bracket on the rangefinder was a Jones E Clip.

[MonkeyBrain]

Hi Bob, thanks for the reply.

I'd seen you, and others, mention this clip in older threads on here that searching uncovered. However it isnt clear to me exactly what this clip does. obviously one end attaches to the bracket on the rangefinder, but what's on the other end of the e-clip? I thought it was probably something for gripping a lightsaber-style Graflite flash or soemthing like that, which wouldnt help me here (I just need a female hotshoe to attach the transmitter to).

I'd already done a quick search for whatever the company was called that bought Jones, and discovered they dont seem to stock this anymore anyway. Googling "e-clip" didnt reveal much more information either tbh. Though I'll have a more serious look now.

I assume that the fact you do not contradict my assumption that the bracket on the rangefinder is not "hot" (i.e. it does not send a sync signal to the flash) means that my assumption is correct?

[Jac@stafford.net]

You can either get an L-bracket that fits either tripod mount on the camera
or make your own adapter that fits the rangefinder mount.

When I get to the shop I will scrounge through the parts for the later.

[MonkeyBrain]

You can either get an L-bracket that fits either tripod mount on the camera
or make your own adapter that fits the rangefinder mount.

When I get to the shop I will scrounge through the parts for the later.

Thanks, appreciated. The latter is probably the better option, as a great big L-bracket seems like overkill for just mounting a small piece of plastic on the side; extra bulk and weight on a camera which could hardly be described as compact or lightweight in the first place.

[Bob Salomon]

Hi Bob, thanks for the reply.

I'd seen you, and others, mention this clip in older threads on here that searching uncovered. However it isnt clear to me exactly what this clip does. obviously one end attaches to the bracket on the rangefinder, but what's on the other end of the e-clip? I thought it was probably something for gripping a lightsaber-style Graflite flash or soemthing like that, which wouldnt help me here (I just need a female hotshoe to attach the transmitter to).

I'd already done a quick search for whatever the company was called that bought Jones, and discovered they dont seem to stock this anymore anyway. Googling "e-clip" didnt reveal much more information either tbh. Though I'll have a more serious look now.

I assume that the fact you do not contradict my assumption that the bracket on the rangefinder is not "hot" (i.e. it does not send a sync signal to the flash) means that my assumption is correct?

There are no "hot" shoes on a Technika. Synch is through the PC contact on the shutter itself.
The E Clip had an encircling bracket to hold the battery chamber of old flash guns.
Veach bought Jones years ago and this clip has not been made in decades.

[MonkeyBrain]

There are no "hot" shoes on a Technika. Synch is through the PC contact on the shutter itself.

What I assumed, but the nice lightning-strike flash symbol on the bracket made me hope it could be otherwise.




The E Clip had an encircling bracket to hold the battery chamber of old flash guns.
Veach bought Jones years ago and this clip has not been made in decades.

No loss from my point of view, as the clip wouldnt help me in this case anyway.

Looks like I'm going to have to be a little more inventive and come up with my own method of keeping the cable and transmitter out of the way.

Thanks for you help anyway, clears up all my doubts.

[MonkeyBrain]

just out of interest, if there's currently no product being made that can attach to the bracket on the rangefinder, why are modern Master Technika Classics still manufactured with that bracket on them?

[Bob Salomon]

just out of interest, if there's currently no product being made that can attach to the bracket on the rangefinder, why are modern Master Technika Classics still manufactured with that bracket on them?

Nobody said that there is nothing that mounts to the bracket. Just that the flash clip is long out of production.
Linhof makes two Anatomical Grips for the Technika. The left hand one mounts to a bracket on the left side of the camera (the bracket replaces the strap that comes on the camera) and which has a cable release and a hand strap.
The Right Hand Anatomical Grip attaches to the bracket on the rangefinder housing. This grip is does not have a strap or a cable release although you could put a Linhof Cable Release in it.

[Bob Salomon]

What I assumed, but the nice lightning-strike flash symbol on the bracket made me hope it could be otherwise.




No loss from my point of view, as the clip wouldnt help me in this case anyway.

Looks like I'm going to have to be a little more inventive and come up with my own method of keeping the cable and transmitter out of the way.

Thanks for you help anyway, clears up all my doubts.

Not difficult to do. Many companies make dual flash shoes that slide into the flash shoe on the top of the Technika, or any other camera. Many of these brackets have adjustable shoes that can slide torwards or away from each other. Go visit a well stock camera store and you can find these. Also companies like Quantum may have things like this.

[MonkeyBrain]

ah yes of course, the right-hand grip. forgot about that.

and thanks, will look into the dual flash shoes.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Adhesive backed Velcro tape.
One on transmitter, one on camera.

I don't think you would be happy with a double shoe mount. The Linhof multi-viewfinder likes a long accessory shoe.

[MonkeyBrain]

Adhesive backed Velcro tape.
One on transmitter, one on camera.

Great idea! Simple but effective. Going to do this for sure.


I don't think you would be happy with a double shoe mount. The Linhof multi-viewfinder likes a long accessory shoe.

Yeah, I took a look at a few models earlier today, both online and in a store, and pretty quickly rejected that idea.

But velcro sounds good to me. Thanks a lot for your help.

[Jac@stafford.net]

But velcro sounds good to me. Thanks a lot for your help.

What is funny is that I went to the shop, put a spare Linhof accessory shoe on the bench and as I was about to measure the flash mounting plate - there were two ribbons of velcro right in front of me. Duh! I felt downright silly.

[MonkeyBrain]

What is funny is that I went to the shop, put a spare Linhof accessory shoe on the bench and as I was about to measure the flash mounting plate - there were two ribbons of velcro right in front of me. Duh! I felt downright silly.

:)

I'm sure not as silly as I feel right now though...

Just got this camera back from Linhof where they cammed my lenses, added focus stops and scales and calibrated everything, and yet, shooting instant film, the image is out of focus by at least an inch or two.

Given I've never used this camera before and Linhof built it, I think we can safely assume the problem is that I dont know how to use the camera, not that Linhof havent done their job properly (they were in fact very helpful).

There just seem to be so many variables in positioning of the track, scales etc. (especially when compared to the Graflex I'd gotten used to working with) that I don't see how I can ever be sure I've set the camera up the same way as when it was calibrated. For a couple of the lenses, the focus scales dont seem to even coincide with infinity on the GG. The manual is of no use and I can find nothing online in the way of a tutorial for the intellectually impaired.

If someone could explain to me how to use this camera correctly with the rangefinder - starting with the most basic first steps in case I'm doing something totally stupid right from the start - I would be very grateful.


EDIT: point of focus on fujiroid is always several inches closer to the camera than it was when focusing through the rangefinder. This is the case with both 125 and 150mm lenses (didnt even try shooting tests with the other 2 lenses I have, as when I inserted their focus scales everything was so completely off that it didnt even seem worth trying...need to work out the correct position for the scales before I waste any more film). Unfortunately I cant really check focus on GG very accurately as I have no loupe (I never use GG for focusing). Sometimes it looks ok on the GG to my naked eye, other times it's pretty definitely out even when the rangefinder claims an object is in focus.

[Jac@stafford.net]

You can thank Mr. Butkus for the condensed manual download with a $3 donation
Get it here: http://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/linhof_super_technika_4x5.pdf

[MonkeyBrain]

You can thank Mr. Butkus for the condensed manual download with a $3 donation
Get it here: http://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/linhof_super_technika_4x5.pdf

Thanks, but I'm already acquainted with Mr. Butkus and his manual. And neither his version nor another one that I have here have been of any use to me at all. My level of knowledge of this camera is basic, but not that basic ;)

Thanks anyway though. Always brings me pleasure to see mention of Mr. Butkus.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I hope you can get to the bottom of the focusing issue.

First things first. Begin with the normal lens.
Be sure the correct cam is fully seated.
The infinity stops flick up and down. Flick down. Pull lens standard to the stop.
Focus something at 20 feet or so using the rangefinder. Is it in-focus on the GG?

If it not, then the repair folks did not do their job.

We can move onto the infinity recalibration test next. Got a tiny hex key?

[MonkeyBrain]

Thanks.

yeah at 20 feet, GG and rangefinder seem to agree on focus (as far as I can tell; like I said, I dont have a loupe).

But the fujiroids Ive shot that have been out of focus were when focusing just a few (3 or 4) feet away. Theyve all been near-focused approximately 4 inches.

Is the Tech V rangefinder even designed to be accurate at 4 feet? Perhaps that's the problem? What's the closest it can accurately focus?

I could shoot a fujiroid of something 20 feet away, but the focused area will be so small in the frame that I'm not sure I'd be able to tell from the fujiroid (not 4x5...I'm not rich) just how sharp it really is, especially as (with the 150mm lens) were talking about just a few inches of error, which at twenty feet is negligible. hence why I've been shooting tests with focus on something much closer.

Dont have a hex key here, and not sure I'd want to start messing with Linhof's adjustments just yet anyway: it wasnt exactly cheap to have the camera serviced so I dont want to undo all their hard work only to discover I just hadnt pulled the bed out to the correct point or somethign stupid like that.

[MonkeyBrain]

The infinity stops flick up and down. Flick down. Pull lens standard to the stop.

I'm assuming you actually meant to write flick up, right? Or did I miss something?

I'm pretty sure I'm not doing anythign stupid with the stops, as I also had a pair of them on the graflex and never had any issues focusing (but then, there was only one set of stops, and one lens, so not a lot to go wrong...).

The issue of near-focusing with the 125 and 150 mm lenses (they share a focus scale) might just be caused by trying to focus on things which are too close for this camera to deal with. But the other major issue I have is that when I switch the focus scale over to the one for the 240 and 300 mm lenses, (A) the scale doesnt fit very well on it's rail, and (B) when I slide the front standard out to the infinity stops there's absolutely no correspondence between the little white marks on black tabs (which are there to indicate where on the focus scale the standard is currently positioned) and infinity on the scales. This makes me wonder if I'm positioning the scales correctly, but I dont see any other logical position for them to be in.

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks.

yeah at 20 feet, GG and rangefinder seem to agree on focus (as far as I can tell; like I said, I dont have a loupe).

But the fujiroids Ive shot that have been out of focus were when focusing just a few (3 or 4) feet away. Theyve all been near-focused approximately 4 inches.

Is the Tech V rangefinder even designed to be accurate at 4 feet? Perhaps that's the problem? What's the closest it can accurately focus?

I could shoot a fujiroid of something 20 feet away, but the focused area will be so small in the frame that I'm not sure I'd be able to tell from the fujiroid (not 4x5...I'm not rich) just how sharp it really is, especially as (with the 150mm lens) were talking about just a few inches of error, which at twenty feet is negligible. hence why I've been shooting tests with focus on something much closer.

Dont have a hex key here, and not sure I'd want to start messing with Linhof's adjustments just yet anyway: it wasnt exactly cheap to have the camera serviced so I dont want to undo all their hard work only to discover I just hadnt pulled the bed out to the correct point or somethign stupid like that.

The minimum focus distance for a Technika varies with the focal length of the lens. When you have a lens dammed the camping package includes the cam, cutting the cam, the Infinity Stops, installation of the Infinity Stops and the Focus Scale for that lens and installation of the Focusing Scale and, if necessary, a Focusing Scale Stage if you already have three lenses cammed as that is the maximum number of Focus Scales that fit on a Stage.

Of course, if you did not send the camera in to the service station with the lens when the camming was done then you still paid the same price but the service center would have sent you the Infinity Stops and the Focus Scale for you to install yourself.

So, did you send the camera in with the lens for camming. If not how do you know that you installed the Infinity Stops and Focus Scale correctly?
If you did send the camera in then you know the answer to your question as to the minimum focus distance as that is the minimum distance on the Focus Scale.

The Focus Scales are mounted to a slide-in, slide-off Scale Stage. It detents in to the correct position when you sled it in. But it can still slide if handled and you want to make sure that it is positioned at the detent. Otherwise the distance pointer will not indicate the correct distance.

Lastly instant film does not position at the exact same position as sheet film. Have you tried checking with regular sheet film to make sure that the problem isn't your instant film or holder?

Why don't you have a loupe? Used good ones are cheap today.

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks.

yeah at 20 feet, GG and rangefinder seem to agree on focus (as far as I can tell; like I said, I dont have a loupe).

But the fujiroids Ive shot that have been out of focus were when focusing just a few (3 or 4) feet away. Theyve all been near-focused approximately 4 inches.

Is the Tech V rangefinder even designed to be accurate at 4 feet? Perhaps that's the problem? What's the closest it can accurately focus?

I could shoot a fujiroid of something 20 feet away, but the focused area will be so small in the frame that I'm not sure I'd be able to tell from the fujiroid (not 4x5...I'm not rich) just how sharp it really is, especially as (with the 150mm lens) were talking about just a few inches of error, which at twenty feet is negligible. hence why I've been shooting tests with focus on something much closer.

Dont have a hex key here, and not sure I'd want to start messing with Linhof's adjustments just yet anyway: it wasnt exactly cheap to have the camera serviced so I dont want to undo all their hard work only to discover I just hadnt pulled the bed out to the correct point or somethign stupid like that.

You have a V. Do you have the fresnel installed? If so, where is it, inside the ground glass or on the back of the gg? Was the position of the Fresnel ever changed since your camera was new? If so by a service center who re-set the gg position?

When your lens was cammed was the camera sent in with it or was just the lens sent in?
If the camera was sent with the lens then the service center also installed the Infinity Stops and the Focus Scale. If the camera was not sent in with the camera then someone other then the service center had to install them. Who did that?
Which service center did the camming?

Is your Focus Scale Stage that holds the Focus Scales in the proper detent position? If not the distance indicated on the scale is wrong.

Your camera is very old. The last V was made in May of 1972. Is it still in factory spec? If you did not send your camera in with your lens then the service center cammed to factory spec while your camera could be out of spec.

Instant film does not sit at exactly the same position as regular film. Have you tried regular film so you can eliminate the instant film or the holder being the problem?

Your Focus Scale will tell you the minimum focus distance for rangefinder focusing with that focal length lens. Are you trying to shoot at a closer distance?

Are you focusing at taking aperture or wide open?

And why wouldn't you have a good loupe? A good, focusing loupe is available used at very low prices and is an essential part of a view camera.

[MonkeyBrain]

So, did you send the camera in with the lens for camming.



I did.





If you did send the camera in then you know the answer to your question as to the minimum focus distance as that is the minimum distance on the Focus Scale.



Ok. Although I'm still not 100% sure, as there's no indication as to what measurement the scales are in. I'm assuming it's meters, as 1.2 feet would be an incredibly close minimum focus distance, but the rangefinder does indeed allow me to focus that close (whereas the graflex rangenfinder did not, even though the camera and lens itself was capable of focusing that close) so who knows...





The Focus Scales are mounted to a slide-in, slide-off Scale Stage. It detents in to the correct position when you sled it in. But it can still slide if handled and you want to make sure that it is positioned at the detent. Otherwise the distance pointer will not indicate the correct distance.


yep, there's a position which is logically where it should go, as sliding it any less or any further means the scale sticks out over the end of the camera-bed and probably wouldnt allow me to close the camera. My doubt springs from the fact that, when placed in this "logical" position, the scale for the 240 and 300 mm lenses does not appear to correspond with anything on the camera at all.

I have one scale for the 240 and 300, another for the 125 and 150.







Lastly instant film does not position at the exact same position as sheet film. Have you tried checking with regular sheet film to make sure that the problem isn't your instant film or holder?



Thats a good point. No I havent, I only received the camera back from Linhof on friday.

However, it's the same instant film back I used with the graflex.







Why don't you have a loupe? Used good ones are cheap today.

Because I've never shot a single sheet of film in my life using a tripod and GG, and have no plan to start now. Having said this, it has suddenly become very apparent that the ability to check if my rangefinder is functioning properly by looking on the GG is pretty useful. So I'm going to look into getting one.

Thanks

[MonkeyBrain]

Do you have the fresnel installed? If so, where is it, inside the ground glass or on the back of the gg? Was the position of the Fresnel ever changed since your camera was new? If so by a service center who re-set the gg position?.

Although I didnt specifically ask them to do this, Linhof Munich replaced the GG last week while servicing the camera.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Loupe - since it is Sunday and you might want one right away, just go to any hardware store and buy one of the inexpensive 8X loupes (http://dfqj586i2jk2a.cloudfront.net/US/BR8914/1/320x320). It will suffice until you can get the real deal. Or if you have a 50mm lens for a 35mm camera, try that as a loupe. (you will have to swing the GG shroud away with either.)

When you are ready to get a loupe, then get one that lets you poke far enough under the hood to use. There is a thread on loupes on this site. I have a long, collapsing discontinued Wista. Too bad it is discontinued.


I've never shot a single sheet of film in my life using a tripod and GG, and have no plan to start now.

Until I got a Linhof Super Technika, I never shot 4x5 without a loupe and ground glass. :) I finally found an almost unused V and after verifying that the cams were matching, I tried using it hand held with RF and was floored by the dead-on accuracy of everything.

BTW all my 12 cameras except a Hasselblad are range-finders, viewfinder or ground glass focusing cameras.

[Bob Salomon]

I did.




Ok. Although I'm still not 100% sure, as there's no indication as to what measurement the scales are in. I'm assuming it's meters, as 1.2 feet would be an incredibly close minimum focus distance, but the rangefinder does indeed allow me to focus that close (whereas the graflex rangenfinder did not, even though the camera and lens itself was capable of focusing that close) so who knows...

Thanks

1.2 would be meters.

[MonkeyBrain]

1.2 would be meters.


Ok, that clears that up then. Thanks.

I'm coming round to your suggestion that the issue might be caused by the instant film holder now, as I seem to remember having a similar (if somewhat less acute) panic attack about the graflex rangefinder becoming uncalibrated at some point in the past. A problem which mysteriously rectified itself. Could be that the polaroid back is very inaccurate at close distances, but less noticeable when focusing further away.

Will experiment further.

Still no idea what's going on with the 240 and 300 mm focus scales though.

Actually I'm not sure Ive really understood what the focus scales are for (beyond alerting me when Ive arrived at the lense's closest focusing point at 1.2 meters). If the infinity stops for each lens have been correctly positioned, then why would I ever need to look at the focus scales? I'm sure they are there for a reason, it's just it might well be for a reason that doesnt concern me, in which case I can stop worrying about the 240 and 300 scales and just get a loupe to make sure GG and rangefinder are in agreement...and get on with taking pictures.



Loupe - since it is Sunday and you might want one right away, just go to any hardware store and buy one of the inexpensive 8X loupes (http://dfqj586i2jk2a.cloudfront.net/US/BR8914/1/320x320). It will suffice until you can get the real deal. Or if you have a 50mm lens for a 35mm camera, try that as a loupe. (you will have to swing the GG shroud away with either.)

When you are ready to get a loupe, then get one that lets you poke far enough under the hood to use. There is a thread on loupes on this site. I have a long, collapsing discontinued Wista. Too bad it is discontinued.



Until I got a Linhof Super Technika, I never shot 4x5 without a loupe and ground glass. :) I finally found an almost unused V and after verifying that the cams were matching, I tried using it hand held with RF and was floored by the dead-on accuracy of everything.

BTW all my 12 cameras except a Hasselblad are range-finders, viewfinder or ground glass focusing cameras.

Thanks for the loupe advice. will dig out the thread.

An almost unused V sounds amazing. I hope you swiftly set about making up for all its lost years sitting on the shelf :)

Your experiences with the V's rangefinder are at least encouraging...

[Jac@stafford.net]

"Actually I'm not sure Ive really understood what the focus scales are for"

Flash and bellows calculations and measuring the perimeter of my wife's garden which is invading our whole backyard. :)

[MonkeyBrain]

Followed your suggestion and used a Contax 80mm MF lens to check focus on the GG at about 15 feet.

RF and GG were in agreement...and fujiroid looks pretty sharp too (also checked through the contax lens). However, at that distance/resolution, I really couldnt say if the sharpest point is where I focused or not. Could just as easily be several inches in front for all i can tell on the fujiroid.

Not a particularly conclusive test in the end. I guess I'll need to shoot some film.

[MonkeyBrain]

"Actually I'm not sure Ive really understood what the focus scales are for"

Flash and bellows calculations and measuring the perimeter of my wife's garden which is invading our whole backyard. :)

:)

None of which are of particular concern to me (though I can sympathize re. wife's garden)

[Jac@stafford.net]

:)

None of which are of particular concern to me (though I can sympathize re. wife's garden)

Flowers are simply weeds with political influence.

[MonkeyBrain]

Velcro working well for me. Thanks.


Sadly however, I've come to the conclusion that the problems I'm having with focusing are not entirely down to my own stupidity. At 10-15 feet, the 125, 150 and 300 mm lenses appear to be sharp on instant film, even at f8, and when placed at their appropriate infinity stops, the indicator coincides with infinity on their respective focus scales. So perhaps the problems I had with these lenses earlier were due to my being too close to the subject.

However, with regards to the 240 mm lens (the one I was most looking forward to working with), I'm guessing the infinity stops have been installed in the wrong place, as (A) they do not coincide with the focus scale for that lens, and (B) a test on instant film is so out of focus as to render the scene virtually unrecognizable, even at 10 feet. So we're not talking about just 4 inches of inaccuracy which might be caused by the polaroid back. More like 4 feet!

Will test the three apparently functioning lenses today on film, but the 240 is so out it's not even worth bothering.

Damn.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Will test the three apparently functioning lenses today on film, but the 240 is so out it's not even worth bothering.

It is possible that the lens is off somehow. If there are serial numbers on the back lens as well as the front, do they match?

Did you get a loupe?

[MonkeyBrain]

Hello again.

yes, I guess it's possible that the front and back of the lens do not match, as I've never used this lens before (but I bought it in Japan, where in general I find dealers to be considerably more honest than elsewhere...though that doesnt mean I didnt get duped by the exception to the rule of course). No serial on the back though, so I cant be sure.

I didnt get a loupe yet, as I'm having trouble finding anything that looks like it will be long enough to use with the V (and no Wista loupes on ebay that I can find right now). However, your 80mm lens trick works just fine for checking focus, and in actual fact, when the 240 mm is correctly focused via rangefinder, the image on the GG is so utterly out of focus (like the fujiroid) that no loupe is required in order to check it. I mean, not one single part of the image is in focus, so its not just a matter of being out by a few inches.

Add to this the fact that, on closer inspection, the focus scales for the other 3 lenses do appear to be accurate, and yet for the 240 there's no alignment between the scales and the infinity stops whatsoever, and it really does look likely that the stops for this lens have been incorrectly installed.

I still find this hard to believe though. I mean, I'm a moron, and Linhof are Linhof. Who is most likely to have made an error?

Ive written to Linhof now anyway, so will see if they can suggest anything else.

Presumably Linhof's technicians will have checked alignment between GG and rangefinder before installing the infinity stops anyway, so they would have noticed if there was a problem with a lens. it looks to me like they ground the cam, measured the placement for the focus scales, and then put the stops somewhere else by mistake.

But perhaps I shouldnt go writing such things on the internet before I've really ascertained that it's not just user (moron) error at fault.

[Bob Salomon]

Hello again.

yes, I guess it's possible that the front and back of the lens do not match, as I've never used this lens before (but I bought it in Japan, where in general I find dealers to be considerably more honest than elsewhere...though that doesnt mean I didnt get duped by the exception to the rule of course). No serial on the back though, so I cant be sure.

I didnt get a loupe yet, as I'm having trouble finding anything that looks like it will be long enough to use with the V (and no Wista loupes on ebay that I can find right now). However, your 80mm lens trick works just fine for checking focus, and in actual fact, when the 240 mm is correctly focused via rangefinder, the image on the GG is so utterly out of focus (like the fujiroid) that no loupe is required in order to check it. I mean, not one single part of the image is in focus, so its not just a matter of being out by a few inches.

Add to this the fact that, on closer inspection, the focus scales for the other 3 lenses do appear to be accurate, and yet for the 240 there's no alignment between the scales and the infinity stops whatsoever, and it really does look likely that the stops for this lens have been incorrectly installed.

I still find this hard to believe though. I mean, I'm a moron, and Linhof are Linhof. Who is most likely to have made an error?

Ive written to Linhof now anyway, so will see if they can suggest anything else.

Presumably Linhof's technicians will have checked alignment between GG and rangefinder before installing the infinity stops anyway, so they would have noticed if there was a problem with a lens. it looks to me like they ground the cam, measured the placement for the focus scales, and then put the stops somewhere else by mistake.

But perhaps I shouldnt go writing such things on the internet before I've really ascertained that it's not just user (moron) error at fault.

Either you are using the wrong infinity stops, you must have a set for each cammed lens, or your bed isn't in the proper position for that lens.

The way it all works is the cam is cut to match the lens. Then the camera is placed on a stand and focused, at a very specific distance, at a chart. When the focus on the gg and the focus on the chart match they know where to install the infinity stops. The screw that holds the infinity stop in place has a sharpened point that bites into the chrome rail that it is mounted on. So that prevents the stop from moving by itself.

You keep saying that the camming was done by Linhof. You specifically mean Linhof in Munich or a Linhof service center somewhere else? You have never answered that question. If it was a service center which one?

[MonkeyBrain]

Hi Bob, thanks for your continuing help.

Actually I think I did specifically mention Linhof Munich at some point, but my apologies if not. The camera was given a total service, 2 lenses cammed, and all 4 lenses calibrated (2 already had cams, but the infinity stops were not there for them), GG replaced, and some other minor repairs done by Linhof Munich last week.

I have adjusted nothing at all on the camera (wouldnt dare...) and 4 sets of infinity stops are installed, each color coded to match with it's cam and focus scale, as one would expect. As I said, one pair (for the 240 mm) does not appear to align with it's respective focus scale, and when focused via the rangefinder this image is totally out of focus on film. I dont think it is likely that the infinity stops have shifted (and if they have, both sides have shifted by the same amount and are now firmly screwed in their new position...not likely). But then it also seems fairly unlikely that Linhof would make a mistake such as this, even more so having read your description of the calibration process.

What could I possible be doing wrong, that I am not doing with the other lenses?

It's a Fujinon 240 mm f.9, if that makes any difference whatsoever.

[MonkeyBrain]

From your description of the calibration process, it seems clear that if the lens is damaged or faulty in some way, this could have only occurred post-calibration.

[Jac@stafford.net]

2 lenses cammed, and all 4 lenses calibrated (2 already had cams, but the infinity stops were not there for them),

So that means that two of the lenses had cams. Do their serial numbers match the lens serial number?

[MonkeyBrain]

So that means that two of the lenses had cams. Do their serial numbers match the lens serial number?


They do.

And even if they didnt, one would assume that a technician installing infinity stops would have noticed this and have brought it to my attention.

[Bob Salomon]

[QUOTE=MonkeyBrain;1085211

It's a Fujinon 240 mm f.9, if that makes any difference whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

It makes a great deal of difference. What is the flange focal length of that lens? Once you know that then you can measure the distance on your camera when it is set to the proper infinity stop to see if it is the same. If not then you have to draw the bed out till it is the same. Then everything should match.

[DrTang]

velcro that sucker onto the bottom of the 'lid'

[Jac@stafford.net]

It's a Fujinon 240 mm f.9

It is possible that the cam was set for a telephoto lens such as the Tele-Arton 240mm (which I have for a Super Technika with correct cam). A non-telephoto would have a longer bellows extension, therefore a different default infinity stop.

The Fujinon 240mm f/9 flange distance is about 9.5"
Tele-Arton 240mm flange distance is close to 6". Huge difference.

[Corran]

We've gone out on a tangent now from the original question but...

I've calibrated infinity stops now for several lenses on both my Tech IV and MT. It's not hard. A couple things to note:

1) the cam has to be seated all the way down into the holder. Don't let it stick out.
2) I think your problem with the 240mm might be that you have to have the extension engaged. I don't know what it's called properly. Anyway, there's two little tabs behind the focus lock, press them down and pull/slide the bed forward. Your infinity stops might be set correctly for that "second stage" setup. Further, make sure you put it back for the other lenses!
3) If you get good focus from infinity to 10 feet, but not closer, something is wrong with the cam or the lens. I get good focus down to 3-4 feet with a 150mm f/2.8 lens (!).

After fooling with the camera operations for an hour I figured out how it all fits together. But I'm mechanically inclined so I don't know what to tell you. The Linhof is such a perfectly designed piece of engineering. It all just fits together - but you have to know where all the little knobs and buttons are.

[MonkeyBrain]

2) I think your problem with the 240mm might be that you have to have the extension engaged. I don't know what it's called properly. Anyway, there's two little tabs behind the focus lock, press them down and pull/slide the bed forward. Your infinity stops might be set correctly for that "second stage" setup. Further, make sure you put it back for the other lenses!


This sounds like a promising lead. Too late here now to look at it, but will investigate tomorrow. Thanks a lot.

[MonkeyBrain]

It makes a great deal of difference. What is the flange focal length of that lens? Once you know that then you can measure the distance on your camera when it is set to the proper infinity stop to see if it is the same. If not then you have to draw the bed out till it is the same. Then everything should match.


Ok, this is getting a little advanced for me now, as I've never understood what flange focal length means (and never previously needed to), but if it turns out to be the only way to solve the problem then I guess I'll have to do some reading and face up to my technophobia.

It occurred to me that there was one very simple test I could carry out which might help either confirm or disprove my theory that the stops have been installed in the wrong place: ignore the stops, and instead place the front standard and lens so that the marker aligns with infinity on the focus scales. If the rangefinder and GG now align then obviously this is where the stops should have been placed.

However, I've since tried that, and they're as out of alignment as ever :(

Which proves absolutely nothing on either side of the argument.






It is possible that the cam was set for a telephoto lens such as the Tele-Arton 240mm (which I have for a Super Technika with correct cam). A non-telephoto would have a longer bellows extension, therefore a different default infinity stop.


I guess it is possible, but as Linhof had my camera and the lens in front of them, I dont see why they would have confused things.



This sounds like a promising lead. Too late here now to look at it, but will investigate tomorrow. Thanks a lot.


Corran > Nope, in the end that didnt seem to lead me anywhere. Thanks anyway though.

Are you referring to the 2 black buttons along the side of the rail, about 2 inches apart? The ones you press down to slide the bed back into the camera body in order to meet the front standard when pulling it out? If so, yes I can slide the bed further forwards/outwards, but there's nowhere it logically comes to a stop or clicks into a "second stage"...it just keeps on going until the bed slides right off the lower rails, so I dont see how I could ever be sure when it's arrived in the correct position.




velcro that sucker onto the bottom of the 'lid'

I stuck it on top of the body, next to the hotshoe. Doing fine, and didnt fall off once during a 2 hour hand-held session yesterday.

[Corran]

I am almost positive that what I said is actually correct. There is a "second stage" or extension, I use it all the time, and unless it's broken it clicks into place. Let me pull out my 250mm lens on my Tech and see if it needs to be on that second stage. Also, can you post a photo of your bed rails so I can see where your infinity stops are? If you don't understand flange focal distance then I'd really highly recommend you read up on it...

[Corran]

Okay I just checked and I was correct. For a 240mm lens (non-telephoto) you most likely should have the bed clicked into the second stage. I believe you have found the correct tabs from your description. When you press those down, the bed should start to slide independently. Slide it forward (and release those tabs once it is unlocked!) and it should click into place about 4 inches out. My 250mm lens, at infinity, looks like this:

http://www.oceanstarproductions.com/photosharing/DSC_9460.jpg

Notice the front extension. The focus is all the way back to infinity. Unless the 240mm just squeaked in to the edge of the bed, I'm almost positive you'd have to have the camera setup just like that.

Edit: Just in case, I added some red arrows showing the tabs I'm talking about, in case we aren't talking about the same thing?

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't have my camera in front of me, but Corran's description sounds correct. For a 210mm non-tele lens, the stops are just at the end of the rail, so for a 240mm lens on a normal flat board, you probably need to pull the top rail forward one click or maybe two, depending on where the Linhof techs set the infinity stops. You push down on one of the black tabs (I forget which without having the camera in hand, but probably the rear), move the top rail forward a bit, release the tab, and continue pulling until it clicks. Check infinity focus with the lens at the appropriate stop, and if it's not there, go one more click.

One attraction of this ability to adjust the rail in or out, is that lenses can be shimmed to share infinity stops, for instance 75mm/135mm or 90mm/150mm are typical pairs. You just have to remember, if you're not checking the groundglass and relying entirely on the rangefinder, to click to the correct stop. Don't ask me how I know.

[Bob Salomon]

Are you referring to the 2 black buttons along the side of the rail, about 2 inches apart? The ones you press down to slide the bed back into the camera body in order to meet the front standard when pulling it out? If so, yes I can slide the bed further forwards/outwards, but there's nowhere it logically comes to a stop or clicks into a "second stage"...it just keeps on going until the bed slides right off the lower rails, so I dont see how I could ever be sure when it's arrived in the correct position.

That is because you have not learned how to operate the camera. You are keeping the button depressed while you are pulling the rail bed out. Therefore the rail goes beyond the stop.

Depress the button and start to pull the bed out. When it starts to slide LET GO OF THE BUTTON.

Where are you located? Maybe we can get you in touch with a dealer that knows the camera and can show you how to operate it.

[MonkeyBrain]

Okay I just checked and I was correct. For a 240mm lens (non-telephoto) you most likely should have the bed clicked into the second stage.... Slide it forward (and release those tabs once it is unlocked!) and it should click into place about 4 inches out.

I was so excited when I read this, because I've always moved the bed by keeping those two tabs pressed, not pressing and releasing. So I wanted to kiss you haha, so sure was I that this was the solution. And I tried it, and sure enough it clicked into place...and...

...and the image was still out of focus on the GG :(

But it was clearly much more in focus than before, and this made me think that perhaps there's not only a second stage, but a third...and so there is, and...


:):cool::) IT WORKS!

Thanks so much!


And then I read...




if it's not there, go one more click.

And I knew everything was as it should be and not just coincidence.




Don't ask me how I know.

Unfortunately, this precisely what I want to ask you (both of you).

I mean, I do feel like an idiot, especially for wasting everyone's time on here, and even more so for writing to Linhof to say there's a problem, but really, how was I supposed to know this? It's not mentioned in the Linhof manual. Although I suppose it might have been mentioned in any literature which came with the lens when new, but if there was any that had long since been separated from the lens by the time I bought it.

I do feel that, you know, Linhof might have mentioned this when they sent the camera back to me (they have yet to reply to my mail regarding the issue). Or am I (someone who doesnt know what flange focal distance is) just shirking my responsibilities by saying this? The fact that it took several days of talking to some of the worlds foremost experts on Linhof cameras to uncover this piece of information does make me feel like it perhaps wasnt that obvious though.

Anyway, thanks all of you for the help. Really appreciated!

I promise to read up on flange focal distance asap

[MonkeyBrain]

That is because you have not learned how to operate the camera.

100% correct. That's why I'm on here.

The Linhof delaer in this part of the world doesnt even bother replying to email, hence why I sent it to Munich.

[David A. Goldfarb]

When I've sent my cameras to be calibrated and have new lenses cammed by Marflex, Martin Arndt would send back a card with a table showing how the lenses corresponded to which color infinity stops, and they would have an arrow pointing down to indicate that the cam and stop for that lens are calibrated to work with the bed dropped one notch, and it would say +1 or -1 to indicate that the top rail should be extended or retracted one click. If you have a wide lens where the cam is set to work with the rail retracted and the bed dropped, don't forget to tilt the front standard back, so that it's parallel to the film plane. On my Tech V, the bed drops 15 degrees, and the lens tilts back 15 degrees, compensating for the drop.

As far as remembering to extend or retract the rail when you're actually shooting the camera with the rangefinder and not checking the groundglass, it's a mistake you make once and you don't forget.

[MonkeyBrain]

Martin Arndt would send back a card with a table showing how the lenses corresponded to which color infinity stops, and they would have an arrow pointing down to indicate that the cam and stop for that lens are calibrated to work with the bed dropped one notch, and it would say +1 or -1 to indicate that the top rail should be extended or retracted one click.

I think there actually was a similar information sheet sent back with my camera...




...unfortunately I don't speak German :(







As far as remembering to extend or retract the rail when you're actually shooting the camera with the rangefinder and not checking the groundglass, it's a mistake you make once and you don't forget.

I can imagine.

Hopefully this whole scenario will have been sufficiently traumatic that I wont make the mistake ever. Not betting on it though: I dont know how many sheets of film I've wasted to date using grafmatic backs by forgetting whether I'd moved the film on to the next sheet yet or not.

[Corran]

Unfortunately, this precisely what I want to ask you (both of you).

I mean, I do feel like an idiot, especially for wasting everyone's time on here, and even more so for writing to Linhof to say there's a problem, but really, how was I supposed to know this? It's not mentioned in the Linhof manual. Although I suppose it might have been mentioned in any literature which came with the lens when new, but if there was any that had long since been separated from the lens by the time I bought it.

I do feel that, you know, Linhof might have mentioned this when they sent the camera back to me (they have yet to reply to my mail regarding the issue). Or am I (someone who doesnt know what flange focal distance is) just shirking my responsibilities by saying this? The fact that it took several days of talking to some of the worlds foremost experts on Linhof cameras to uncover this piece of information does make me feel like it perhaps wasnt that obvious though.

Anyway, thanks all of you for the help. Really appreciated!

I promise to read up on flange focal distance asap

I'm glad it worked! I had a feeling that's what it was.

Honestly I'm a real newbie when it comes to Linhof. I just bought my first Linhof, a Tech IV, a few months ago, and then loved it so much that I bought a Master Technika. When I got the IV, I was bewildered at the precise engineering and multitude of different buttons, levers, etc. I took 2-3 hours just playing with the camera with a few different lenses until it "clicked," regarding those extension tabs. Anyway, I have a mechanical bent and have done repair and modification work to both camera and small precision instruments so that certainly helps.

That is certainly a little disappointing that the local Linhof dealer is unresponsive, especially for such a high-end piece of gear.

Well keep us updated and post some photos if you have a chance....

[MonkeyBrain]

That is certainly a little disappointing that the local Linhof dealer is unresponsive, especially for such a high-end piece of gear.



Quite normal in this part of the world, I assure you ;)

Thanks again!

[Bob Salomon]

100% correct. That's why I'm on here.

The Linhof delaer in this part of the world doesnt even bother replying to email, hence why I sent it to Munich.

What part of the world?