So long Ilford?

[Ellis Vener]

According to this story in the Manchester Guardian,

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/business/general/s/128/128120_fears_for_700_jobs_as_ilford_faces_closure.html

if you like Ilford films and papers you had better start stocking up now.

[Tom Westbrook]

Wow. That's really bad news. Hopefully it turns out to be a reorganization and not a closure. I'm not a regular Ilford user, but I do admire their products and would be very sorry to see them go, esp. HP5+ and wanted to retry Gallerie again soon.

Another article: http://business.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3394295

[Ted Harris]

Remember this was already the second chance (or maybe third) for Ilford. Somke 5-8 years ago the company was sold privately to a small group of investors. My memory isn't real clear but the group that bought the then failing company may have in turn resold it.

[Robert Skeoch]

This would be such a drag, I love their warm tone FB paper. Just bought 300 sheets of it today. That ought to keep the company going till lunch Tuesday.

[Francesco]

This is hardly a surprise. The surprise is that it took some years for this eventual bankruptcy to happen. The company could not change with the times in a timely fashion and the market is a ruthless punisher. There are other, better films out there. I do not bemoan the loss of Ilford films. I am saddened by the loss of jobs.

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

[Sal Santamaura]

"There are other, better films out there."

To which do you refer, and better in what way(s)?

[Bill_1856]

Oh, Shit!

[Francesco]

"To which do you refer, and better in what way(s)?"

Efke PL100 versus FP4 and Classic 400 versus HP5. I have used FP4 and HP5 and they cannot contract as much as Efke and Classic respectively. FP4 and HP5 in my experience loses steam around SBR=11 (N-4 or thereabouts). Whereas Efke PL100 and Classic 400 can go on to SBR=14 (N-7). In addition, they build density better (useful for me because I contact print only on AZO paper) without loss of overall and local contrast.

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

[David R Munson]

I find this to be decidedly depressing.

[tim o'brien]

Time to stock up on HP5 in 2x3 size.

tim in san jose

[Bob._3483]

A bit more on current ownership in The Times: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8209-1230067,00.html

A 26% drop in sales so far this year. Oh well, that answers my thoughts about how well B&W sales are doing compared to colour.

Bugger.

[austin granger]

Man, that's really a bummer. I've yet to find a fiber-based paper that tones in selenium quite like multigrade IV. The other papers I've tried (kodak, bergger) tend to quickly get very warm in selenium, whereas you can bomb the heck out of the Ilford (if the mood strikes you) and it stays fairly cool/neutral.

Anyone have any suggestions for papers to try if my Ilford supply dries up?

[Jim_3565]

I, like Francesco, really won't lose any sleep over not being able to get their film. I just hope that most of the money ends up buying Kodak film, and that the net result will be that TMax is manufactured that much longer.

But, deep down I know that what this really means is that there's only so much time after the white boxes disappear before the yellow ones disappear. And THAT will necessitate a definite attitude adjustment. What a black day that will be.

[Jim_3565]

"Anyone have any suggestions for papers to try if my Ilford supply dries up?"

Try the Bergger VC papers. They're almost as good as Azo.

[David R Munson]

The Bergger VC papers are indeed good. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're almost as good as Azo, but then they're different animals entirely anyway. I've been very pleased with AGFA 111 FB paper - tones nicely in a variety of toners and I've gotten prints out of it that I couldn't get out of Kodak, Ilford, or any of the other brand papers I've tried.

Man this stinks, though....I sure as hell chose an awkward time to get out of college and get into the photo industry. It's hard to tell which way things are going days like this...

[Michael Kadillak]

The bottom line is that a reallocation of the conventional B&W market share is taking place and when the market is dropping in units consumed, that is a challenge to say the least. When Efke comes on board in gangbusters and starts penetrating previously untapped markets, they do it at the expense of the existing players and it directly impacts them and forces a shift in controllable costs or an exit stage left.

Ilford makes good products and these products make money. Ilford's decision with current management is that this revenue stream projected forward is not sufficient to maintain the current workforce. A simple one dimensional business decision. Can they continue to meet and hopefully grow this demand in the future with a more efficient overhead projection? Only time will tell. I seriously doubt that they will close the doors without attempting to find a suitor and salvage some value from their product name.

Who knows. Maybe someone like Efke will make a run at them and get a bargain that they can make money with at a lowered fixed overhead.

On second thought, maybe I need another 24 cubic foot chest freezer.

Cheers!

[Kirk Gittings]

"Anyone have any suggestions for papers to try if my Ilford supply dries up?"

Though I have long been a fan of Berger and Ilford papers, Bruce Barlow's paper tests that he had at the VC conference made Forte look very very good and I am have a box ready to try.

[John Sarsgard]

Ellis, thanks for this very bad news. B&W is becoming a boutique business for the manufacturers at a time that the people I work with for portraits are becoming more and more turned on to B&W. There is good B&W business to be had by manufacturers if they are sized to the market. We just have to figure out who the survivors are going to be. Uggh.

[Brian Ellis]

I think it's horrible news. First Kodak says it will concentrate on digital, then Agfa stops making any sheet film and sells off the remainder of its film business, now this. I have no confidence that an industry whose only players are a couple little companies located in Croatia or other places like that is a viable industry. I don't see how anyone who uses and cares about film can say "I don't care, I don't use Ilford products." I heard that said when Kodak made its announcement, I heard it said about Agfa, now some are saying it about Ilford. You can only say that so often before you don't have anything left to use.

[Diane Maher]

This is also bad for the ULF community. So for those who shoot 7x17, 8x20, 11x14, 14x17 & 12x20 (and any other sizes) you might want to stock up.

[Ben Calwell]

I guess that smug SOB at my local camera store was right all along -- "film won't be around in five years," he always says, with a self-satisfied smile, leaning on a display case filled with gleaming little digital point and shoots. Makes me sick.

[Nick_3536]

Do people actually buy digital cameras at camera stores? I bet Radio Shack sells more digital P&S then the old line camera stores.

[Diane Maher]

I agree with you, Ben. It would serve him right if the display case broke under his weight, don't you think? ;) Just kidding.

I bought a digital from a camera store over the net. The last time I was in Radio Shack trying to get a new cell phone, they were really pushing their digital camera phones. All I said was, "I already have a camera, I don't need one built into my phone."

[Bruce Wehman]

About 10 years ago I inherited a dozen boxes of 8x10 Plus X when my employer shut down its wet labs. Although they are dated 1982, they have been kept frozen, and the only age-related artifact is a slight bit of base fog. From the same freezer came a box of graded Seagull, vintage 1984……can’t tell it from new.

The way I see it, the stuff in my trusty freezer will be useable a lot longer than I will.

[Terence McDonagh]

The difference here is that, unlike Kodak, Ilford actually seems to still be interested in marketing film. Kodak, in my opinion, gave up years ago. I threw all my business to Ilford to support a company that seemed to want my business, and that still introduced new products for us neanderthals (cro-magnons?) that don't own a digital camera.

[Mike H.]

Seems like it gets harder and harder (and more expensive) to get that LF delayed gratification (DG). On the other hand, I normally have (and use) three instant gratification (IG) digital cameras at any one time: my cell phone, my Sony Clie hand held, and my 5.0 mega pixel Sony Cyber-shot DSC-T1. Despite that, what I really want to do is spend long, lonely hours out looking for that perfect image, then hours, days, weeks and months in the privacy of my traditional dark room developing that ultimately exceptional print that makes all my fellow photographers envious. And, I would pay LOTS of money to accomplish that. So, IMHO, there will always be someone, somewhere, who will be willing to provide, for a price, the quality print paper we need to get our LF DG.

[David Karp]

This is bad news. Bad for the people who might lose their jobs. Bad for me and others like me, because my favorite film is Ilford or Arista (made by Ilford), and we (likely?) might now have to change, with no certainty that the available replacements will continue to exist.

In my old job, I did business with a Japanese company that built an electronic product to compete with an old technology mechanical product. It had many superior characteristics to the mechanical product, but it was quite expensive. To lower costs and improve competitiveness, they moved all of their manufacturing equipment to Mexico and trained a workforce there to produce the new technology product at a lower cost. (They also saved on shipping to the western hemisphere.) They then used even higher technology manufacturing equipment to build the products for their home market. This was good for consumers in the U.S.

It seems that this sort of thing might be possible for the Ilford manufacturing equipment. The question is whether anyone would be willing to take the risk of picking up the equipment and "recipes" in a liquidation and moving them to a lower cost manufacturing environment. They would have to bet that demand for their film would last long enough to repay the investment.

Of course, this does not help the people who lose their jobs. It would, however, provide new jobs elsewhere. It would help those of us who like Ilford products. Given the way things seem to have been going, it would be quite a risk for someone to take, unless they are already producing film.

I sure thought that black and white film would outlast color film, even if relegated to a hobbyist/artist material. Perhaps this is more an indication of problems Ilford faced due to its location and the issues relating to the value of the U.S. dollar.

If HP5+ disappears, it seems likely that Kodak will see increases in sales of Tri-X, and so on. Perhaps in the end, it will be Kodak and the Eastern European companies supplying large format films, albeit in reduced variety.

It appears that there is an interesting phenomenon. We are seeing innovation in large format cameras, and, at least anectdotally, an increase in popularity of large format photography at the same time large format film choices are becoming slimmer. Has anyone heard how manufacturers such as Canham, Wisner, Lotus and others are reacting to this news?

[domenico Foschi]

Film change doesn't present a big problem for me , the problem is that soon in the future probably i will have to reorganize all my print work sheets for the exposure change. THAT is a big problem.... AND....since this phenomenon looks like has snowballing characteristic, as soon as i will be done with the changes in exposures etc.....i will have to repeat the process because the substitute paper will be discontinued. Platinum....? Bromoil? Bend to the digital monster?...

[Michael Jones]

Here's a surprise:

"...the 125-year-old group is likely to separate its two businesses: the declining black and white films and photographic paper division, employing 740 people, and the profitable Swiss inkjet printing business.

"The Swiss business will continue and is trading normally," said Mark Byers, joint administrator and receiver at Ilford and head of recovery and reorganisation services at accountants Grant Thornton.

"We have control over the business and in due course we'll be marketing it for sale," he added, saying that no sale timetable had been set.

But the British unit's outlook is less certain. The principal objective is to identify a buyer for the brand name and its assets, Byers said.

"Otherwise, there'll be an orderly wind-down of the operation," he added."

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=570686&section=finance

Mike

[Andrew_4548]

Just throwing this in but what if someone like Fuji bought Ilford as their B&W "arm" as there's been link-ups before AFIAK - chromogenic films etc? I'd have thought there'd be more volume in Ilford lines than for Neopan... although they'd have to fit the Ilford stuff in the same product portfolio as Acros

I've only ever used Ilford FP4+ in 4x5 and Delta in 120 so have no experience of other makes so it'll be sad to see them go but they haven't breathed their last just yet even with all the doomsayers congregating - let's hope there's some way of someone keeping things going (might as well try to be optimistic...)

[CP Goerz]

Ahh so sad, FP4 is truly the best film ever made. The wonderful edge, snappy contrast that you could pull in any direction you wanted and the smoothness of tone that made every print as rich as a warm flourless chocolate cake on a bed of ganache ahh truly this is one soul that will be missed from the black and white banquet.

Lest we all start putting our collective eggs in the yellow basket just look at all the films they have discontinued without warning in the past few years, is their B+W division that far ahead in sales of the monochromatic emulsion to warrant sleep filled nights for all?

Ahh well, I'm sure we can all take comfort in the old axiom that where there is a demand there is a product...can't we?!



CP Goerz

[Bob._3483]

Hey guys - Ilford is not dead yet!

It has been here before and survived - its market position in B&W materials makes it a viable proposition to a potential buyer. The sudden 26% drop in sales will have caused its current difficulties - as a private company, it has limited finacial resources and the banks are more jittery about lending money. Of course, we have no idea what has actually been going on in the board room.

Go buy some HP5+/FP4+/Delta 100/ MG-IV/Gallerie/ID-11/Perceptol/etc etc etc....

Cheers,

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

It has been here before and survived

From what I understand, it survived by creating a digital paper and inks division and is actually selling more ink jet paper and inks than B&W paper & chemistry. They are no different than Kodak. In addition to the weak dollar, Ilford has been steadily but steadfastedly changing from traditional to digital. The only difference from Kodak is that they have kept it quiet.

[Nick_3536]

It survived by being sold every so often. The current owners bought it from International paper didn't they? IP bought it from somebody else. And so on. I don't know if they're selling more inkjet paper but they're happy with the way that part of the business is going at the moment.