C41 or E6 in a JOBO CPP2 or CPP3 = Quality?

[gmfotografie]

hi my friends,

actually when i develop a 4x5 negativ or positiv; i have to pay about 4€ per sheet + 7€ for shipping at the laboratory.
very expensive ... but i get absolute great, perfect developed films back.

i want to ask how you think about the quality developing sheet films in automated systems like the jobo cpp2 or cpp3 ?

can i also get those perfect 4x5 films?
anymore tipps from you, developing at home.. i don´t want to do a lot of manually work because of less space (and time)


best michael

[vinny]

As good or better than lab quality. You have control over how fresh the chemicals are.
The answers to your other question about tips can be found using a search.

[EOTS]

Hi Michael,

I'm using a Jobo CPP2 (and before CPE2) with E6 and C41 with perfect results for years.
Note that those only automate temperature control and drum rotation,
with those machines the timing of pouring in and draining out the chemistry is your job.

The ATLs (1000, 1500, ...) can automate those steps.
I would prefer the CPP2 though for maximum control and the ability to do 8x10" film or contact prints at a later point.

E6 chemistry is available from Fuji Hunt (6-bath kit) or Tetenal (3-bath kit).
C41 chemistry is available from Fuji Hunt, Tetenal and Compard.

I've seen you are from Salzburg Land ...
In case you're interested simply drop me a PM, I offer one day 1:1 workshops of the whole process in Linz,
end-to-end from handling the camera, developing the sheets (CPP2), drum scanning and printing.
Could be a good starting point to compare camera sharpness (as was an issue in the other thread), and get to see the development process with those machines hands-on.

Best regards,
Martin

[Ed Bray]

Jobo CPP2/3 with lift and a 3010 Expert Drum will give fantastic negatives with either C41 or E6 processes, as will the ATL. The problem is that the initial outlay is not cheap, although there is a nice CPP2 on ebay at the moment from Germany at quite a reasonable cost, you would have to budget for a Lift though and an 3010 Expert Drum.

C41 in the UK a 5ltr kit (circa £50) will do 60x 35mm 36exp or 60x 8x10 or 240 sheets of 4x5 film (circa £0.21 per sheet)
E6 in the UK a 5ltr kit (circa £70) will do 40-50x 35mm 36exp or 8x10 or 160-200 sheets of 4x5 film (circa £0.40 per sheet)

The best thing about it is you can please yourself when you process and not have to wait for enough sheets of film for a batch to be sent off.

[koh303]

The short answer is you will most likely always get BETTER results with a Jobo machine and Expert drum, then you could ever have imagined possible, by far surpassing anything you get at the commercial lab.

BTW - The CPP2/3 are not automatic processors, they are semi manual - the machine regulates the temperature and agitation, and helps fill and empty the tanks (with the use of the Jobo lift) at exact, repeatable intervals. These machines will require you to fill and empty each step of the process.

Automatic processors (Jobo Automatic processors are ATL machines) are more of a launch and forget system, and depending on the model your responsibility other then
selecting the proper process you are using will differ slightly.

We have a short article discussing this:
http://www.catlabs.info/how-to-choose-the-right-jobo-processor

[gmfotografie]

thank you for your constructive answers.

@ koh303 a lot of useful information on this site! thx!

[Lachlan 717]

You will need to work on a dust-free drying protocol, though. To me, this is where the Pro Labs can have the upper hand. However, once you have this done, you should get great results!

[frotog]

I would caution that maintaining chem. temps with the +/- error of 1/4 degree fahrenheit needed for an in control process is physically much more difficult when working with 270ml - 600ml than it is with a 50 litre nitrogen burst bath in a refrema machine. This is simple physics. Mind you, I'm not saying it's impossible, I just found it to be so. Others here who profess to having checked their process with control strips have not had this problem, YMMV. I suppose if I wasn't a couple hours from the best c-41 lab in the world (LTINYC) I might suck it up and give it another go. But after running multiple control strip tests, running the sensitometry, and always finding my results just outside of being in control when processing in a cpp-2 I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't worth the trouble.

Before investing, you might want to try running control strips of your own on a friend's Jobo and see how your results compare.

[Daniel Stone]

Up until approx 1yr ago I was doing C-41 and B/W processing(35mm-->8x10) on a CPP2 at a local community darkroom/photo center. I used my savings over taking my film(C-41 at the time, primarily) to a lab to buy more film :)

Control was great, I used a Kodak process thermometer in the water bath since I wasn't too sure about the accuracy of the thermostat/controller, but it seemed to be quite accurate. Small bits of fine tuning allowed me a large amount of control(I found that labs were processing my film too long for my tastes), so I could "dial in" my own settings for what I felt I wanted in the film.

If you have the space, time, and inclination to DIY, then I'd highly recommend it. Jobo is (coming) back, but great used units can be found if you're looking to save some $$$(who isn't?)

-Dan

[gmfotografie]

i can get a cpp2 with a 20.... serial number.
what i know i can use my 3010 .... is it a good deal for about 450€

best

[Ed Bray]

If it has a lift with it for that price its a steal.

[gmfotografie]

no lift ...

[Ed Bray]

no lift ...

You will a lift to use an expert drum. A new one in the UK is £290 (circa 350 Euros).

That is still quite a good price for a revision 2 upgrade model (upgraded to work with expert drums) provided that the serial number is higher than 204** bearing in mind that a new CPP3 will be circa 3200 Euro (without a lift).

[koh303]

Actually the Europ MSRP for the CPP3 is about 2490Euro including tax, which is similar to the US MSRP of 3000$.
The lift will cost you 350Euro or so as stated above.

Still that is a good price for the machine, and used lifts can be had for less then a new one (sometimes).

[Ed Bray]

My apologies, I meant 2200Euro, fat fingers I'm afraid, UK price is just under £2000.

[gmfotografie]

how complicate is to upgrade the motor?
because it has the number 20072 ... a cpp2 with the smaller motor... not suitable for the 3010

i have to search again...

best michael

[Ed Bray]

Michael,

Bide your time if you can, I was really lucky and earlier this year picked up a late CPP2 (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101544-CPP2-and-Lift-what-was-I-missing-over-the-years)(serial no 23336) with later lift and a couple of drums including delivery to the UK for £400 (circa 480Euros) on a buy it now from a German seller, when it arrived it was like new, it had obviously been well cared for.

I would do a search a couple or three times a day on ebay, select the EU option and newly listed items, it will come eventually.

[EOTS]

Ahoi Michael,

I second what Ed said.
If you have the time and patience, wait for a good sample to show up.

In summer 2012, when adopting 8x10",
I bought a used minty, almost like-new CPP2 with a newer serial number with lift for 1100 EUR, which I picked up personally from Munich.
It came with tons of accessoires (10 1L bottles, 5 drums with reels, minstral dryer, 20 jobo drying clips, etc etc),
some of them I didn't need and sold again, thus even further lowering the buying price.

You could store yourself a query for "Jobo CPP2" with Europe search scope.
It will automatically notify you via email if something turns up.
Log in to ebay.de (don't use ebay.at because many sellers only list it germany-wide and their market is larger).

Best regards,
Martin

[gmfotografie]

thank you guys for your great help.... yes i will have the time and patience to wait for a really good offer :-)

all the best,
michael

[koh303]

Michael, depending on your process, you might consider a CPA2 with the latest upgrade, they are sometimes cheaper used.
Also - the CPP2 with SN 20XXX is still not a bad option even when using Expert drums. Though the latest upgrade would be best. Upgrading any CPP2 may not be economically viable due to the cost invloved.