Still Life & Flash Metering

[oneshotbeary]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum & Large Format Photography. I have the use of a LF camera in a college studio for a little while an i'd like to do some still life LF with it. However i'm not sure of the process i should use when metering with Flash.I think i need to use flash as i was getting some lengthy meter readings with out the flash which would probably cause reciprocity failure.

How can i meter using the studio flash if i can't attach the camera to the flash?

Thanks!

[AtlantaTerry]

I'm not sure of the process I should use when metering with Flash. I think I need to use flash as I was getting some lengthy meter readings without the flash which would probably cause reciprocity failure.

How can I meter using the studio flash if I can't attach the camera to the flash?


It would help greatly if you said what brand and model flash meter you are using.

I think what is wrong is you are indoors but have the light meter set for continuous light like you would outdoors in daylight. Since indoors is darker you are getting a false reading.

Since I don't know what light meter you are using, let me say a few things in general.

1. you don't necessarily need a camera/shutter attached to the flash meter

2. be sure your film/sensor ISO is programmed into the meter

3. set up the flash meter to not take a reading when the camera shutter goes off but, instead, set it up to react to the flash itself

4. once Step #3 is set set up the meter for incident or reflective readings

5. if incident, take the meter to the subject, set off the flash then look at the readout. You can do this a couple ways:
5a. set the meter on the subject or have the subject hold it then go set off the flash
5b. use a long wire from the flash to the strobe
5c. use a small weak handheld strobe to trigger the main strobe
5d. use a wireless transmitter handheld or plugged into the meter to signal a receiver to trip the strobe
5e. some flash meters such as my Sekonic 758DR have a transmitter module installed that can tell a Pocket Wizard receiver plugged into the strobe to trip it

6. generally, you are only interested in aperture with a flash meter so set the shutter speed to one that is as high as possible without creating problems. By that I mean if you are using a camera that has a focal plane shutter you want to be sure it's speed is not so high that only part of it is open when you take a picture. With view cameras, the shutter is generally in the lens so you can set it to a high speed such as 1/125 or 1/250. Even if there is a shutter speed like 1/500 available I don't like to use it often because I feel it stresses the shutter. (With a Hasselblad, Mamiya RB/RZ or similar I don't worry so much.)
Be careful that you do not use a slow shutter speed such as 1/2, 1/4, etc. because the strobes's modeling lights will add both light and color to your image. Since most modeling lights are incandescent light bulbs they look "warm" to color film therefore can make your photo look warmer than you might want.

7. focus / compose / etc. with the view camera's aperture at it's widest and the shutter opened fully

8. close the shutter

9. set the aperture to the reading you got with the light meter

10. insert the film holder

11. remove the dark slide

12. take the picture

13. insert the dark slide with the black side facing out (I think of it like a sun tan - skin gets dark when exposed to light)

14. remove the sheet film holder

15. write down the film holder number, exposure, film, etc. in a notebook

The big question I have is why didn't the school teach you to use your equipment properly?

RTFM

[Leigh]

How can i meter using the studio flash if i can't attach the camera to the flash?
Hi, and welcome to LFPF.

Ordinarily a studio camera IS connected to the flash being used. That's sort of fundamental to the process.

Depending on your setup, you may need an assistant to trip the shutter while you hold the meter.

You need an exposure meter designed to evaluate flash.
It may be a dedicated flash meter or a more general-purpose one with flash capability.

For incident readings, aim the meter toward the camera, pointed halfway between the flash and the lens axis.

Alternatively, you can take a reflected reading from a gray card set at the subject, again pointed halfway between the camera and flash.

Reflected readings are typically done with spot meters, or other meters designed for this usage.

- Leigh

[ShannonG]

So the lens on the LF does not have a flash sync port? One needs a flash option on the light meeter or a flash meeter to measure flash.If the lens doesn"t have a flash sync port you can leave the shutter open for a few sec. and trip the flash. You may have to bracket a few sheets. One can also do this in a completely dark room ,open the shutter,then paint the subject in with light. Experiment and have fun.

[lenser]

Leigh, I'm going to gently disagree with your suggestion on pointing the meter toward the camera for the incident reading. That would only be accurate in one of two circumstances, first if the main light was also at the camera position in which case you could establish your value for the main light, and secondly, if you are trying to set the value for the fill lighting to compare it to the main for contrast ratio, assuming that the main is coming from another direction.

To establish the highlight exposure range (and then be able to adjust it for the desired zone value) the incident dome must be aimed at the main light, wherever it is located. Then you can set the fill range and expand or contract the contrast ratios as you wish by incident readings of that source and then the appropriate brightness adjustments.

That part of the thought process is identical to making ambient readings and adjustments. The way you described will work after a fashion, but it won't be strictly accurate.

Oneshot, Leigh is right about the use of an assistant, but lacking that, if your meter has a tripod thread mount or you can just prop it up in the scene so that you measure the source you want, you can do this by manually triggering the flash. If you initially don't have the power you want, most meters have a function that allows you to accumulate flashes until you see the f stop that you want for either depth of field or brightness needs. Just put the meter on that function and fire the flash multiple times (waiting for full recharge in between) and when you see the f stop you want, see the display for the number of "pops" it took to get to that level. Then open the shutter in a darkened studio (including turning off the modeling lights in the flash if any) and pop away until you get to that level.

[Leigh]

Leigh, I'm going to gently disagree with your suggestion on pointing the meter toward the camera for the incident reading.
Hi Tim,

You missed half of what I said, namely:

For incident readings, aim the meter toward the camera, pointed halfway between the flash and the lens axis.

This is the way exposure meters are designed to work when you use point-source lighting (flash).

If you're using uniform ambient light (outdoors), you just point the meter dome at the camera lens.

- Leigh

[mdarnton]

Seeing a point here that needs discussing. With most flash meters it is NOT necessary to run a wire to the meter from anything. The meter not only knows when the flash has gone off, but usually can also integrate ambient light into the reading IF you have it set to that option. You just put the meter in position, press the read button, and the meter waits for the flash to go off. I use a remote trigger to fire my a blank on my camera and that fires the flash.

The other option is to hook the lights up directly to the meter and trigger the flash with the meter. That requires a different setting on the meter, and a wire to the flash contact on the meter from at least one of the strobes (assuming the others are connected with some type of remote sensors, which they will be). If the meter doesn't have that contact (and some don't) that's not an option.

What you really NEED to do is read the meter's instructions. Meters are all different, and do different things. Only that will tell you what to do with the specific meter you're using. Instructions for virtually everything are available online.

The only thing people here will be able to tell you that the instructions don't is the specific nuances of where to hold the meter and how to interpret the reading, and you're going to get a LOT of varying advice on that. My advice is to start with a digital camera, not film, and test various ways of using the meter until you arrive at a method that gives you the results you want. Then transfer those concepts over to the film camera. You're not going to learn as much by stumbling through a mix of other people's incompatible methods as you will by just doing the footwork yourself. It should take you all of about 15 minutes of your life to sort it out.

By the way, you say you can't attach the flash to the camera? Do you really mean can't attach the flash to the meter? Anway, if you really can't connect flash and camera, put a half-second exposure on and hit the manual flash button in the middle of it. If the room is as dark as you say, using the f opening that's probably right, the half second won't do much.

[lenser]

Leigh, At one point I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Then I went to a couple of Dean Collins seminars and learned a much better and more accurate way.

[Leigh]

Tim,

The one common thread that runs through every discussion of personal preferences and processes

is the word "personal".

There are twice as many "right" ways to do things as there are people doing things.

I've attended Dean's lectures and have all of his videos. He's a master in the studio.
But that's not relevant.

The universal truth in photography is consistency. Regardless of how you do whatever with whatever, if you are absolutely consistent in your technique you will achieve consistent results.

Once you achieve that point in your professional growth, you start examining different aspects of the discipline, changing this or that or something else to see how those changes affect the results.

Which brings up my #1 hot button... personal EI for film.

The results on a negative depend on only two things: 1) exposure, and 2) development.

If you use the development recommended by the film manufacturer, with accurate metering and shutter speeds, you WILL get the expected results, every time.

The most common problem is that people don't use exposure meters correctly, so their exposures are off.
They compensate for this by changing the EI settings on the meter. One error to compensate for another error.

Back when I was teaching photography, this was my #1 law, that I stapled to everybody's forehead at the beginning of every class. "Do what the manufacturer tells you to do, exactly, every time, and you'll get consistent results."

Whether those results are what you want or not is a different question.
You may need to change the process to achieve your "vision".

This is the artistic aspect of photography, divorced from the technical.
But this is not a newbie thing. It can take a lifetime to develop one's own world.

- Leigh

[Daniel Stone]

Here's a video of Mr. Collins doing his thing:

http://youtu.be/uL2NG-0GnM0

Starting at the 25:00 mark in particular, shooting watches on tabletop.

-DS

[Harold_4074]

All philosophy of metering technique aside, it is possible to make photographs---even with flash---without a meter.

If you aren't using color film, and have easy access to a darkroom, you can make a three or four value exposure test on one sheet of film by pulling the darkslide in increments, just like making a test strip when printing. There may well be someone around who has used that equipment before, and who can tell you roughly where to start.

Pick the working aperture that you want to use, and adjust exposure by multiple flash pops---if you set up the picture and like the way it looks on the groundglass at f/11, you may be surprised if a meter convinces you to open up to f/4.5! This will work fine if you are doing "classic" still life and keep the flash about the same distance away from the subject all the time. If you want to do dramatic things (backlighting, very high key, etc.) then you will need a spot meter and/or a lot of testing. But for a given room, light source, film and development, the exposure should be relatively consistent and well within the fim's latitude.

Good luck, and let us know how it works out over on the image sharing/still life thread!

Harold

[Cor]

Coming late here in the thread, but I am getting (just) a bit confused here on the subject of flash metering.

My approach is (pretty sure I was taught this way, long long ago..):

Say for a portrait:
I use 2 strobes both at an angle of roughly 45 deg left and right from the person, one of them further away (I can only send equal amounts of power from my generator to both identical strobe heads).

I us a simple Quantum Calcu-flash II meter (bought 20 years ago in NYC at 42nd Street Photo, were traditionally dressed Jewish man ran op and down ladders to get ordered stuff from shelves, but I digress). With the white dome installed for incident measurement.

I first point from the head of the person straight to the camera, and fire and measure: that's my f stop.

Then I check the light balance by pointing from the same position to either strobe head, to see if the ration is between 1/2-3/4 stop difference (or other if desired.

If I understand above posts i am approach this wrongly, although OTOH Leigh points out that there are different personal approaches to this, as long as it works and you are consistent.

My portraits come out fine, exposure wise..


best,

Cor

[C. D. Keth]

Back when I was teaching photography, this was my #1 law, that I stapled to everybody's forehead at the beginning of every class. "Do what the manufacturer tells you to do, exactly, every time, and you'll get consistent results."

Whether those results are what you want or not is a different question.
You may need to change the process to achieve your "vision".

- Leigh

What's the point of consistency if the results aren't what you want, though? It's like a car manufacturer saying, "You can have your pickup truck in fuchsia. It's a very consistent color."

[polyglot]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum & Large Format Photography. I have the use of a LF camera in a college studio for a little while an i'd like to do some still life LF with it. However i'm not sure of the process i should use when metering with Flash.I think i need to use flash as i was getting some lengthy meter readings with out the flash which would probably cause reciprocity failure.

How can i meter using the studio flash if i can't attach the camera to the flash?

Thanks!

a) if you have the right films (Acros, TMY2), reciprocity failure isn't really a problem and you might be able to avoid flashes.
b) you don't connect the camera to the flash during metering. Easiest thing is to have a wireless trigger, hold the (incident) flash meter wherever you want a measurement, press the transmitter for the flash and look at your reading. Adjust lighting until happy with readings, then plug the wireless transmitter into the lens' flash-sync port, insert film and expose.
c) you can also preview your exposure with a DSLR. This is sometimes contentious here because a few people have not setup their DSLR properly (e.g. DRO-type functions OFF) and gotten misleading results. IMHO this is the best approach because it basically gives you a polaroid and you can check out all the shadow placements etc, the only drawback being you can't check the exact composition and camera focusing.
d) it's harder if your lens doesn't have a flash sync port (unlikely), but you can do it manually. Get the room dark enough that a 1s exposure is irrelevant, use B mode on the shutter, one hand on the shutter cable and one hand on the flash remote. You can manually fire the flash while the shutter is open with an exposure of less than 1/4 second.

[Mark Sawyer]

How can i meter using the studio flash if i can't attach the camera to the flash?

Thanks!

Attach the meter to the flash. Duh...

You're welcome. :)

[AtlantaTerry]

Here's a video of Mr. Collins doing his thing:

http://youtu.be/uL2NG-0GnM0

-DS

Thank you for the link. Very informative.

[Taija71A]

... For incident readings, aim the meter toward the camera, pointed halfway obetween the flash and the lens axis.

Alternatively, you can take a reflected reading from a gray card set at the subject, again pointed halfway between the camera and flash. - Leigh



Leigh, I'm going to gently disagree with your suggestion on pointing the meter toward the camera for the incident reading. That would only be accurate in one of two circumstances, first if the main light was also at the camera position in which case you could establish your value for the main light, and secondly, if you are trying to set the value for the fill lighting to compare it to the main for contrast ratio, assuming that the main is coming from another direction.

To establish the highlight exposure range (and then be able to adjust it for the desired zone value) the incident dome must be aimed at the main light, wherever it is located. Then you can set the fill range and expand or contract the contrast ratios as you wish by incident readings of that source and then the appropriate brightness adjustments.

That part of the thought process is identical to making ambient readings and adjustments. The way you described will work after a fashion, but it won't be strictly accurate.



... Say for a portrait:
I use 2 strobes both at an angle of roughly 45 deg left and right from the person, one of them further away (I can only send equal amounts of power from my generator to both identical strobe

I first point from the head of the person straight to the camera, and fire and measure: that's my f stop.

Then I check the light balance by pointing from the same position to either strobe head, to see if the ration is between 1/2-3/4 stop difference (or other if desired.

If I understand above posts i am approach this wrongly, although OTOH Leigh points out that there are different personal approaches to this, as long as it works and you are consistent. My portraits come out fine, exposure wise... Cor

____

Hmmm... Very, Very interesting! :o

I wasn't going to 'chime in' here... But for the 'sake' of those who are perhaps newer to Flash Photography or for those who may honestly not know the 'Correct Way' to use a Flash Meter or Light meter -- I could not say nothing!

This is just *far too important of a subject.. For me to simply ignore... :D
--

K.

Let's take a Vote: :)

Thus far... We now have either:


1). Aim Meter... Directly 'Half Way' between the Main Light and Camera.

2). Aim Meter... Directly towards the Main Light.

3). Aim Meter... Directly towards the Camera.


Obviously, all three of the above cited techniques cannot be 100% 'Technically Correct'.

Two (2) of the three (3) above cited techniques... Can usually produce consistent results -- And apparently their 'adherents' are happy with these results!

But, as lenser (Tim) has so previously eloquently stated:

The results obtained (*With at least one of the other 'Metering Techniques')... Were 'Primarily Based' ('In part')... Because of the 'specific' Lighting Ratios -- That were employed (*And NOT necessarily based upon use of the best 'Flash Metering Technique').
--
If anyone is perhaps interested in a more detailed discussion of this subject (i.e. a 'Technical Analysis') and why this is all so... I would be more than happy to put it together! :)
--
However for now, I would strongly suggest that if you are looking for a 100% 'Fool Proof' 'Flash Metering Technique' -- That always yields consistent results... That you try Method # 2:

(Aim Meter... Directly towards the Main Light).

This technique will work in ALL Lighting Situations and not in just some of them.
--
Best Regards,

-Tim.
________

[DrTang]

#3

I always figured - why not meter what the camera sees?

I do check each light separate (if I'm using more than two which I mostly don't) to see if one is overpowering the other though

and I check top and bottom and each side to make sure the light fall off is okay

then I take a polaroid

then I start burning film

[Mark Sawyer]

Hold the meter where the subject is, and face it in different directions for different information. Point it at the main light and you're essentially taking an incident spot-metering of the highlight. Face it towards fill-lights/reflectors/absorbers (or just away from the main light), and you can check the difference in illumination between the highlight and shadow areas. Face it towards the camera, and it's an overall average reading.

Taking different readings and taking notes is especially helpful in figuring out your lighting arrangements. Can you accurately previsualize the results from a one-stop and three-stop difference in lighting on the two sides of a face?

[Taija71A]

... I always figured - why not meter what the camera sees?

____

Simple Answer: :)

If you are taking a 'Reflected Reading'... Then you of course would want to 'Meter' -- From the 'Camera Position'...

However, if you are using an 'Incident Meter' (*Light 'Falling' on the Subject)... Then the advice that Mark has so nicely stated -- Would put you in 'Very Good Measure!!!' :D
--
Best Regards,

-Tim.
________

[Brian Sims]

Just to offer a technical clarification: when you are metering a single light source (pointing it at the flash) you need to use the flat diffuser not the dome. The dome picks up light from more than 180 degrees. The flat diffuser picks up light from about 90 degrees.