8x10 Prototype

[radii]

Hello,

This is a follow up to my previous 5x7 build (found here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?107018-5x7-prototype)).
Again, it's a non-folding/wide-angle design to primarily fit the very beefy Super-Angulon 165 f8. It can also acomodate a 210mm lens focused to about 5 feet. I improved many things, mainly the lever driven spring back, added front-shift and front-tilt movements and (hopefully) refined the design. The bellow frames are held in place with neodymium magnets, as is the rotating back.
All wooden parts are made from Bubinga, (almost) all metal is 6061 aluminum, the black rods/tubes are carbon fiber, the ground glass is hand-ground and laser scored 1/8" acrylic, the back leaf-springs are cut from phosphor bronze and the bellows are made out of the Thorlabs BK5 fabric.

Thoughts and suggestions are very welcome.

JP

http://s20.postimg.cc/klgmlsafh/JPM_8x10_1.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/uwszeg24t/JPM_8x10_2.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/xgom8jpot/JPM_8x10_3.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/hdc58qo5p/JPM_8x10_4.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

more pics in the next reply ...

[radii]

http://s20.postimg.cc/lqaor5wwd/JPM_8x10_5.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/3rbfg76j1/JPM_8x10_6.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/xx9tuzdfx/JPM_8x10_7.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/epmoydv4d/JPM_8x10_8.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

[BarryS]

Stunning work! I'm also jealous your camera has its own Metro stop. :)

[radii]

Stunning work! I'm also jealous your camera has its own Metro stop. :)

Don't tell me that's the exact, official logo of the Paris Metro ... :o

[Tim Meisburger]

No, its the DC Metro...

Lovely work!

[Ari]

No, but it's not too far off... :)
Some very smart features, I especially like the magnet approach. Brilliant.
Beautiful workmanship, and a lot of thought went into this, it's quite obvious.
For my own taste, I'm not a huge fan of some of the minor styling details, but they don't detract from the camera, either.
For example, I would find the level on top of the rear standard quite distracting while working, yet it is in the perfect place should I need to glance quickly at it.
Have you incorporated zero detents into any of the movements?
Congratulations, it's a superb piece of work.

[karl french]

I think you're going to want some kind of wide angle/bag bellows if you're primarily shooting with the 165 Super Angulon. It looks like you'll have some mechanical vignetting at full front rise based on the 6th picture.

[diversey]

Nice camera! Can it be massively produced?

[radii]

No, its the DC Metro...

Lovely work!

Metro, Schmetro ... :p

I like to think that I paid homage (sort of) to one of my favourite comics books:

http://s20.postimg.org/uextylcjx/La_Marque_Jaune_1.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

... and it's the first letter of my last name.

[radii]

I think you're going to want some kind of wide angle/bag bellows if you're primarily shooting with the 165 Super Angulon. It looks like you'll have some mechanical vignetting at full front rise based on the 6th picture.

I have tried using bag bellows on a previous build, and they looked just too hideous.
Full rise with the 165 f8 on this camera would be well past the edge of the image circle, but yes, the bellows could be in the way.

[radii]

No, but it's not too far off... :)
Some very smart features, I especially like the magnet approach. Brilliant.
Beautiful workmanship, and a lot of thought went into this, it's quite obvious.
For my own taste, I'm not a huge fan of some of the minor styling details, but they don't detract from the camera, either.
For example, I would find the level on top of the rear standard quite distracting while working, yet it is in the perfect place should I need to glance quickly at it.
Have you incorporated zero detents into any of the movements?
Congratulations, it's a superb piece of work.

Thanks Ari, I'm glad you like it.

The front standard has movable guides behind the aluminum stiles that keep it vertical during "non-tilting" operation.
All other movements (rise/fall, shift) are reset by sight.

[radii]

Nice camera! Can it be massively produced?

Well, it is a prototype, fully functional and all, but not really ready for serious production.

[Tim Meisburger]

Sorry. Just joking (although it does look like the DC Metro). I thought it was for Mousetrap.

[dave_whatever]

Looks good. With the lighting on the first picture I actually assumed this was a CGI CAD simulation!

How much does it weigh?

[Andrew Plume]

absolutely terrific, congrats to you

maybe Barry Cochran should watch out

regards

andrew

[radii]

Looks good. With the lighting on the first picture I actually assumed this was a CGI CAD simulation!

How much does it weigh?

I have not put the camera on a scale yet, but since I did model everything in CAD 3D and assuming standard densities for all materials, the weight should be around 5.5 lbs., but please don't hold me to it.

[sepiareverb]

Stunning. And inspirational. As much as I love my old Kodak 11x14 one with more movements would be darn nice...

[mdarnton]

It looks great. Just one functional suggestion: I think you will eventually wish you'd inlaid little brass plates under where the bail bearings ride on the wood when they lift the back, but you can do that at any time.

And the screws on the side braces look like snaggers--I probably would have done something round headed or countersunk.

The wood is beautiful, and your finish on it and the metal is wonderful.

I'm looking for tripods for my 5x7--is that one enough for your camera? I have those legs, but have a weaker head that isn't working for me, but if the legs are OK, maybe I'll concentrate on replacing the head.

[smithdoor]

Nice camera! Keep up the good work

Dave

[Jac@stafford.net]

and the screws on the side braces look like snaggers--i probably would have done something round headed or countersunk.

105247--105248

[radii]

It looks great. Just one functional suggestion: I think you will eventually wish you'd inlaid little brass plates under where the bail bearings ride on the wood when they lift the back, but you can do that at any time.

And the screws on the side braces look like snaggers--I probably would have done something round headed or countersunk.

The wood is beautiful, and your finish on it and the metal is wonderful.

I'm looking for tripods for my 5x7--is that one enough for your camera? I have those legs, but have a weaker head that isn't working for me, but if the legs are OK, maybe I'll concentrate on replacing the head.

Bubinga is quite a hard wood. It will take a while for the bearings to dig into it. Brass inlays would have been a nice detail though.

For screws, I actually picked the socket cap type for looks mainly, and secondly because of adjustability. Countersunk screws allow no movement whatsoever, which makes lining up slightly mismatched parts ( +/- 0.01" ), rather tricky. If anything, I should have picked a bigger size of screw. I like the look of a good -"honest" connection.

The tripod is sturdy enough, considering it's size and price. I use the heavier/sturdier/pricier version at my place of work, but didn't feel like it was necessary for the 8x10. A potential 11x14 might be a different story ...
A strong head does make a difference and will probably yield the most improvement.

[radii]

Nice camera! Keep up the good work

Dave

Thank you

[radii]

absolutely terrific, congrats to you

maybe Barry Cochran should watch out

regards

andrew

Thank you

[David Karp]

Beautiful!

[Cletus]

WwwwwwwOW! A work of art if I ever seen one! Beautiful camera - the woodwork with the aluminum trim looks amazing. Would that I had those kinds of skills and resources to build my own dream camera. You are a very talented and lucky man, congrats.

[radii]

Beautiful!


WwwwwwwOW! A work of art if I ever seen one! Beautiful camera - the woodwork with the aluminum trim looks amazing. Would that I had those kinds of skills and resources to build my own dream camera. You are a very talented and lucky man, congrats.

Thank you guys :-)
I'm glad you like it.

I took the camera out yesterday and today for the first batch of pictures. It sets up quickly, is stable and is easy to carry around on a tripod.
The spring-back-lever should have some kind of 90 degree stop, as it can flip too far down if one is not careful.
Oh, and it's light tight with no apparent internal flares/reflections :-)

[cbk]

it's beautiful

[jon.oman]

Wonderful!

[radii]

it's beautiful


Wonderful!

Thank you both

[radii]

I have not put the camera on a scale yet, but since I did model everything in CAD 3D and assuming standard densities for all materials, the weight should be around 5.5 lbs., but please don't hold me to it.

I was wrong. The camera, without lens/lensboard, weighs 6.9 lbs. Darn CAD software ...

[Tav Walraven]

Very nice indeed, radii.....really stunning workmanship.......................(think you could make me one in 11x14 ???.....my Deardorff is getting really worn out)

[Carl J]

Impressive. Like the light weight. How much extension does it have?

[radii]

Very nice indeed, radii.....really stunning workmanship.......................(think you could make me one in 11x14 ???.....my Deardorff is getting really worn out)

Thank you.
Delusions of grandeur have made me think about a 11x14 version. Depending on how well I make it through the holiday season, it's something I might consider in the next year.
It will however, definitely have to have a folding and extension mechanism to accommodate longer lenses and make it somewhat portable.

[radii]

Impressive. Like the light weight. How much extension does it have?

The extension is minimal. The face of the lensboard, at the most, can be 8.808" (223.7 mm) away from the film plane. So a 210mm lens works from infinity down to about 5 feet.

A All-Purpose-wide-angle-to-triple-extension-bed-camera this is not ..., but it's great for wide-angle-perspective-correction-architecture-shooting, which is what I do a lot of :-)

[Ari]

Radii,
How do you like the acrylic GG for viewing and clarity?
Is that something you might consider making and selling?
Thanks

[radii]

Radii,
How do you like the acrylic GG for viewing and clarity?
Is that something you might consider making and selling?
Thanks

I have not made a GG out of glass, so I have nothing to compare it to, as far as clarity and contrast goes. I do have a glass blank at home that was going to be used for the camera, but the convenience of cutting and scoring acrylic on a laser plus the considerable weight reduction, made me just use the acrylic. The acrylic GG is not perfect though. Since it is not perfectly flat and tends to flex under pressure, I was not able to grind it without a few circular scratch marks (and I tried about 4 blanks with varying success). I suspect that glass is still the better choice.
So, unless I perfect my silicon carbide grinding technique, I will not consider making these for other people :-)

[Ari]

Thanks, Radii, for the answer; I thought you might have some flex with 1/8", and glad to know it's confirmed.
The idea is a good one, though, nonetheless.

[radii]

Thanks, Radii, for the answer; I thought you might have some flex with 1/8", and glad to know it's confirmed.
The idea is a good one, though, nonetheless.

Just to be clear ... the flex is during grinding, not really during viewing/focusing, or not enough to be relevant.

[Ari]

Thanks for the clarification.

[B.S.Kumar]

This has got to be one of the most beautiful cameras ever. Congratulations!

Kumar

[radii]

This has got to be one of the most beautiful cameras ever. Congratulations!

Kumar

As John Travolta said in Pulp Fiction - "That's a bold statement" ;)

Thank you very much.

[jack_hui]

Wonderful camera!!!!

[James Morris]

I'd love to see how it works with a 150 SSXL.

How about a universal style bellows?

[radii]

I'd love to see how it works with a 150 SSXL.

How about a universal style bellows?

Me too !

... if only they weren't so expensive.

What's a "universal style bellows" ?

[ederphoto]

Great job ! Congratulations !

[Steve Smith]

Lovely.

I'm thinking of making something similar but in 5x7 horizontal format only as I have a set of rectangular bellows just the right size.


Steve.

[John Jarosz]

You get full marks for that design and construction. Wonderful machine.

IMHO, comments on how to improve the detailing are completely un-necessary.

John

[koh303]

Amazing!

[dodphotography]

you made that yourself?!?! jesus... I am USELESS

[radii]

Thank you all for the kind words.

I think any design can be improved, especially mine. The archetypical form of a view camera, front- and rear-standard etc., seems to be a given, unless form really doesn't follow function anymore ...
The challenge is then, within that boundry, to come up with something new, that is appealing and still functional ... I'm rambling ... :-) ... en bref, comments/critiques are necessary.

[Peter Collins]

Oh, and I thought all along that the "M" stood for "Marvelous."

[Steve Smith]

Oh, and I thought all along that the "M" stood for "Marvelous."

It does now.


Steve.

[mircea nicolae]

for the bellows, did you only use the material you mentioned, or did you also make some rib structure out of cardboard?


thx.

[radii]

Yes, there are also ribs in there, cut out of 0.01" thick flexible plastic with 3m transfer tape on both sides.

[radii]

Depending on the type of filmholder that I use, that bloody M is actually in the way while grabbing the dark slide handle :-/ It's annoying but I still stand by my design :-) ... and it forces me to make my own filmholders.

[the smiling gecko]

wow!!!

what a marvelous camera you have made.

wondering about possible production plans for it...and, let's really dream - an 11x14 version.

thank you for showing what's possible...with ingenuity, hard work, skill and especially a vision.

breathe, relax and enjoy.
the smiling gecko, aka kenneth

[radii]

wow!!!

what a marvelous camera you have made.

wondering about possible production plans for it...and, let's really dream - an 11x14 version.

thank you for showing what's possible...with ingenuity, hard work, skill and especially a vision.

breathe, relax and enjoy.
the smiling gecko, aka kenneth

Hey, thanks for the compliment :-)

I have no plans to make a bunch of these really, but am definitely thinking/dreaming about building a foldable 11x14 version with ~800mm of bellows draw ...

[the smiling gecko]

thank you for your response. i imagine any size production run would be quite an endeavor.

perhaps someday putting together a build-it-yourself set of instructions with dimensions and suggested material choices might be a possibility.

oh don't say anymore about building an 11x14...i would be pestering you about one of those.
(insert emoticon of smiling and drooling and delirious new-to-LF...

again, my compliments and admiration...i have my eyes on a friend's not-yet-in-use 11x14 seneca city view...

breathe, relax and enjoy
laugh more, smile more - i do every time i go by a mirror. :)

the smiling gecko, aka kenneth, aka "hey you!!!"

[WayneStevenson]

That is gorgeous!

You mentioned in your 5x7 write-up I think this was done with CAD files? Is this something where a layperson could get the CAD files and take to a place to select the wood and/or metals to have the parts made and then assemble it at home?

[radii]

That is gorgeous!

You mentioned in your 5x7 write-up I think this was done with CAD files? Is this something where a layperson could get the CAD files and take to a place to select the wood and/or metals to have the parts made and then assemble it at home?

I wouldn't want to give up my source CAD-files, but also finding somebody that would then turn those into a physical object, would be quite difficult.
But then again, it really is just a fancy, light-tight box with a few movable parts ... :-)

[WayneStevenson]

Heh. No doubt. Well, I hope one day you would consider putting a similar design out as a kit. :)

[Patrick13]

If you add a couple more hints at art deco you could sell these as objets d'art irrespective of their use as a camera.

[radii]

If you add a couple more hints at art deco you could sell these as objets d'art irrespective of their use as a camera.

Thanks for noticing my penchant for that period in design. How that would work with the many requests for a cheaper/cheap 8x10 camera, I don't know ... :-/

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

lets see some photos you took with it.

[radii]

some recent shots ...

http://s20.postimg.cc/jifkluqq5/8x10_1.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/95oom17t9/8x10_2.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/l8u09livh/8x10_3.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)

http://s20.postimg.cc/k98armt3h/8x10_4.jpg (http://postimage.cc/)


hébergeur d images gratuit (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=french)