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sanking
20-Aug-2004, 09:27
Howard Bond published an article on Pyro in the May/June 2004 issue of Photo Techniques that received a lot of attention on this forum in a thread called “Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques." Much of the discussion was critical of Mr. Bond’s methodology, in part because of his choice of film for the comparison test, Tmax-100, but also because it was not clear whether he used VC paper or graded paper for the tests.

Well, Mr. Bond has published another article on Pyro in the current (Sept/Oct) issue of Photo Techniques and it is really very well done. In research for this article Mr. Bond tested four films (Tmax-100, Tri-X, FP4+ and HP5+) using four different developers, two Pyro developers (PMK and WD2D+) and two non-staining developers (D76 and DD-X). He notes that differences between prints made from pyro and conventional developers are too subtle to be conveyed by magazine reproduction and documents the article with curves produced from what he calls “film prints,” i.e. contact prints on film made from a transmission step wedge.

Briefly, here are Mr. Bond’s findings.

1. When printing on graded papers the stain acts just like silver density, increasing the effective density range of the negative, and this is illustrated in the article with curves that show the similarity between pyro and conventional developers with graded papers.

2. The color of the stain (yellow) is relevant for variable contrast (VC) papers, since it is similar to that of low contrast VC printing filters. This can cause “a gray tone in a print area that would otherwise (with another film developer and no burning in) be white. And he write, “Pyro enthusiasts say that this gives them “greater tonal separation” in the high values, which is false. Actually, highlights are simply darker and flatter."

3.Comparing sharpness with several films Mr. Bond concludes that pyro does indeed produce less-visible grain and greater apparent sharpness , “although the latter may not be apparent in moderate enlargements and with some subjects.”

4. Finally, Mr. Bond’s study points out what I have also found to be one of the major obstacles in comparing photographs of subjects developer in pyro. As he remarks, “there is no way to know what fraction of the stain is acting as a VC filter and what fraction is acting as neutral density. This makes it impossible to know what density range the pyro negative should have to match the other negative.

On the whole, even though I disagree with Mr. Bond’s ultimate conclusion, i.e. “Now that I am better acquainted with pyro, and since I don’t use Tri-X, I see ample purely photographic reason for ignoring it,” the article is well-researched and documented and sets a new standard for others who may plan to compare results with pyro developers and non-staining conventional developers, or for that matter between pyro developers that have different color stain.

Kirk Keyes
20-Aug-2004, 09:57
Sandy, I agree. Bond's article was much, much better and more objective than the first one.

But did you notice, all the exposure to pyro developers appears to have disrupted the chemical pathways in his brain and he started raving dubious safety claims about pryo at the very end of the article?

Kirk

paulr
20-Aug-2004, 10:29
Does he mention how he develops the pyro negs (particularly, amount of agitation, or lack of it)?

I haven't experimented with pyro, but my understanding of ajacency effects dictates that agitation is as important as chemistry.

It also makes sense that you would see more effect in a thicker emulsion film like tri-x than in modern emulsion films, which are extremely thin and deposit silver in a minutely thin layer.

Looking at other people's prints from pyro negs, I've seen the usual range of beautiful to terrible ... most of the unique pyro magic seems to come more from hype than any chemical or visual phenomena. It seems like a good developer (with more than the usual number of quirks), which like other good developers, in the right combination of materials and in the right hands, can produce beautiful results. But I see it as more of one interesting choice among many than as a magic bullet of any kind.

Francesco
20-Aug-2004, 15:17
I wonder, because of the short time period in between both articles, whether Monsieur Bond had read the threads here and in APUG to do better this time. Still amazes me that the first one was published at all. Perhaps this is a way of saying "sorry for the first one...".

In any case with pyro, as with any other tool, one must spend time mastering it if one were to get the results one desires.

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

Robert Musgjerd
20-Aug-2004, 16:34
It would be interesting to see how much experience Bond has in using pyro

sanking
20-Aug-2004, 17:58
"Does he mention how he develops the pyro negs (particularly, amount of agitation, or lack of it)?"

Bond writes that he developed the "film prints" at 70 degrees F in a tray with constant agitation and that films were kept from touching each other by a "shosher," which he describes as "a sheet of heavy plastic with partial walls forming a separate corral for each piece."

Andre Noble
20-Aug-2004, 18:10
Bond: “Pyro enthusiasts say that this gives them “greater tonal separation” in the high values, which is false. Actually, highlights are simply darker and flatter."

Yes, they are simply darker and flatter with WD2D+ (as opposed to being otherwise runaway highlights which show up as washed out details in the print).

Bond is correct in that “greater tonal separation” in the highlights is not accurate terminology vis-a-vis the negative with WD2D+ developer, but it certainly applies to the resulting print.

When you're shooting with a high SBR and you're exposing a neg for shadow detail, 'highlights which are simply darker and flatter' on the print is the type of result one WANTS in the highlights as opposed to letting them run into zone 10 and become washed out. I know from my own tests with WD2D+ that resulting VC prints result in greater tonal seperation up in zones 8 & 9.

Finally, it can not be understated that part of the bargain of using WD2D+ effectively calls for using adequate agitation - like 50% of development time. Otherwise, you're not really using the developler properly.

Paul Kierstead
20-Aug-2004, 19:56
I'd like to thank you Sandy for the fair and honest overview and review of the article. It is good to see such objectivity which can be in short supply some days. Hopefully articles like this will serve to improve the process.

I am interested in more info you may have concerning the remarks on highlight separation. I also continue to wonder if pyro offers any advantages to scanning, although it would seem that many pyro devotees are also fans of traditional printing (not terribly surprising I suppose).

Kevin M Bourque
21-Aug-2004, 06:47
I discussed pyro with Howard while I was at one of his workshops. He does not have much experience with it.

Howard is not at all a closed-minded guy, just skeptical. He’s been working in the darkroom for (I’m guessing) fifty years, and doesn’t believe in magic potions. He has never said that pyro isn’t a good developer, but rather that you can get most of the same results in other ways.

Clearly, it’s possible for experienced, competent artists to use different tools and still get good results. As has been stated before, if one film and developer were clearly “the best”, we’d all be using it.

Gary Samson
21-Aug-2004, 10:35
Regarding Paul Kierstead's question about scanning Pyro developed negatives - I have had great success scanning 4x5 and 5x7 negatives developed in Pyrocat HD as well as PMK using an Epson 4870 scanner. I think the Pyro developed negs. scan more easily than non-staining developers and produce exquisite tones in images output to a an Epson 2200 or 7600 printer.

David A. Goldfarb
21-Aug-2004, 10:48
People who have success with scanning pyro negs seem in general to be drum scanning or using a fairly new scanner or slightly older high-end scanner with higher Dmax (or possibly are producing thinner negs targeted for scanning). On my old Agfa Duoscan and Nikon LS-4500AF, I tend to run into problems like banding with pyro negs that I don't get with other kinds of negs.

Francesco
21-Aug-2004, 11:46
I agree David. The pyro negs that can be scanned satisfactorily must be "thin" negatives because it is virtually impossible for me to get anything when scanning the pyro negs I make for AZO contact printing. It is just too dense for the scanner to "see" anything. Anyone AZO contact printing had any success scanning their pyro negs?

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

sanking
21-Aug-2004, 22:22
"I am interested in more info you may have concerning the remarks on highlight separation. I also continue to wonder if pyro offers any advantages to scanning . . . “

Whether the type of highlight compression you get with PMK and VC papers is a good thing or bad thing is for you to decide. But there is no question but that the look that you get in the highlights with this type of compensation is very different from what you would get if you were to just burn in the highlights as you might have to do with a conventional negative, or as you would have to do with a PMK negative printing on graded papers.

One very interesting observation made by Bond is that the compression works much better with a film such as TRI-X. This film has a curve that is quite different from other films in that it has a continuous increase in slope, which tends to counter the tendency of PMK to give highlight compression. This particular characteristic of TRI-X is one of the main reasons it has for so long been popular with Pt./Pd printers because the increase in slope compensates for the very long gradual shoulder of the Pt./Pd processes and gives greater separation in these areas.

As for the scanning pyro negatives I find that they scan very well. I have been scanning both PMK and Pyrocat-HD negatives for several years and the results have been excellent. And my negatives are certainly not thin since they were developed for alternative printing and have a rather high density range. At this time I am using the Epson 4870 and I have not encountered a negative yet that would not scan well with this machine.