Fake 1850s Voigtlander lens

[CCHarrison]

See an 1850s Voigtlander fake !

http://antiquecameras.net/blog.html

Dan



http://antiquecameras.net/images/582_fake-voigtlander2a.jpg

[pierre506]

Interesting found ~

[Steven Tribe]

The overall impression of the engraving is quite good - but the errors start with the first N with a very short loop and minus the underlined o. And they continue throughout. Apart from the wrong addresses, the poor "&" sticks out a mile. And so on. He/She obviously had a nice early "Wien" Voigtländer to use as a model.

[alex from holland]

and how about the misspelling : Sohn and Shon.....:confused::D

[Ari]

What? Fakery in the photographic world? Scandalous!

[goamules]

Great find still Dan, not quite as good as a real one, but more rare! Wonder how they got the engraving done, maybe at a silversmith or something. I still bet it's a 1860s, or 1870s lens, don't you?

[Steven Tribe]

Just a second!

OK, the glass combination is obviously incorrect now, but there is a possibility that this is one of these Voigtländers which lost their identity when the Waterhouse "Square" was cut out of the brass sleeve. We have all seen examples of this when the cut-out has been attached as a patch on the sleeve or just a bit of the engraving is left . Perhaps the engraver had this cut-out in front of him when giving back the identity. It would interesting to check whether the glass diameter corresponds to one of the very few Petzval sizes ( 42, 55, 66, 81mm) in Voigtländers first series?

[Tim Deming]

I've seen half a dozen or so fake Voigtlander brass lenses over the years. One even had half the original Darlot engravings still on the lens!

Cheers

Tim

[CCHarrison]

I've updated the post a bit.

I will have to check measurements on the lens... it does have a patina that to me, indicates this is a lens from the mid 19th century...


http://antiquecameras.net/blog.html


Dan

[paulr]

I wonder how common these fakes are. A 19th century counterfeit might be more collectible than the real thing (!)

[Steven Tribe]

Your finding of the Chrome/nickel plated at MW made me look at this "fake" again.

The two screw mounting for the tangential drive was used by Voigtländer at this period. It was not too common - off-hand I can only think of early Ross.

The Waterhouse cut-out is positioned directly opposite the drive and it could have covered the entire engraved text.

[CCHarrison]

The build of the fake lens is really different than genuine Voigtlanders if you look at the edges of the various barrel parts... Its not a genuine Voigtlander with a different sleeve...
Lastly, many 1/4 plate sized Petzvals had two screw mounting holes for the rack in pinion...larger lenses had 4 holes....

Dan

[CCHarrison]

Steven,

Here are some of the differences in barrel construction that I see as being different.

Dan


http://antiquecameras.net/images/766_compare_voit.jpg

[Steven Tribe]

Nice piece of work! It helps when you have the genuine article in front of you!

[Emil Schildt]

hi Dan
not to hijack your thread but I noticed this Voigtländer Portrait euryscope with a very high serial number..

285401 which according to your list should be from approx 1927-28

did they make these lenses so late? (excuse my ignorance)

[Tim Deming]

Hi Dan,

Why does your authentic #3626 have no threads for attaching a hood? Is the lens tube flipped in the sleeve (threads for hood on the bottom), or was this really a "hoodless" model?

Emil, That portrait Euryscope looked suspicious to me as well --I'm inclined to think it's a fake. The "hood" on the bottom is unlike any other brass Voigtlander lens I've seen. The engraving is also atypical (late euryscops didnt have script engravings, they looked more like stamped lettering)

cheers

Tim

[eddie]

so eye candy for those interested.

this is my 16 inch f3ish Voigtlander #46xx. it still has Wien printed on it.....too bad it did not only have wein on it!

anyway here are some pictures of the engraving, brass, focus dial mounting parts and the hood attachment threads.....too bad i am missing the hood!

also note how the front of the barrel is attached by six screws. hhhhmmm?

anyway a few extra pictures here (http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1061642).

thanks

eddie

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/3/5/7/8/5/0/webimg/714807521_o.jpg

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/3/5/7/8/5/0/webimg/714807526_o.jpg

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/3/5/7/8/5/0/webimg/714811021_o.jpg

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/3/5/7/8/5/0/webimg/714811015_o.jpg

[CCHarrison]

Eddie - "Wein" was always listed on their lenses - it was Braunschweig that was added about serial # 3800

Dan

[Steven Tribe]

Engraved Wien was given up around 1888 and machine engraving (like Emil's) was started in 1898."& Sohn" is often not included in the engraving design - starting about 1920.
I am sure Emil's is OK - copying machine engraving requires a similar machine. I can't find it advertised as late as 1927, but Photographers were/are very conservative and Voigtländer had all the tools available still.
I like Eddie's special "gear box"!

[CCHarrison]

I noticed the gear box as well. Never saw that one before.

[eddie]

it still has Wien printed on it.....too bad it did not only have wein on it!

eddie



Eddie - "Wein" was always listed on their lenses - it was Braunschweig that was added about serial # 3800

Dan

yup. you missed the above "only" i wish the lens ONLY had Wein printed on it, meaning NOT Braunschweig......ie....no other city names......

[CCHarrison]

I did miss that - my bad !

Any more videos in the making, eddie?

[eddie]

I did miss that - my bad !

Any more videos in the making, eddie?

:)

i have a pretty informative video about the disassembly of a universal heliar.....i made it 12-18 months ago....i should get off my ass edit it and post it eh?

[goamules]

Here's another early Voigtlander that the engraving looks pretty unusual and primitive. What's your take on this one dan? Serial number 2804, note for future reference the seller says it's missing one of it's rear lenses. Ebay 121274424941.

[CCHarrison]

Hi GA

I saw that one as well. Clearly the engraving is vastly different and of lower quality than your typical Voigtlander, but the barrel and construction does seem to be a fairly close match to Voigtlander.

Dan

[Steven Tribe]

I think the engraving is very close to Voigtlânder (engravers from a specific area all had the same apprenticeship!), :-

- the & is very different from the usual.
- The swirl doesn't continue from the W in Wien. It changed to a shorter stroke when Und Braunschweig was added.
- Centralisation of the three text lines doesn't exist. Some of the very early are a bit off - but nowhere by as much as this one.

[CCHarrison]

Steven,

I am confused by your statement. You say it is close to Voitlander and then explain how it isnt....

In addition to the differences you wrote, there are many more differences..... the font and font size is all wrong on the serial number..the hash marks under the "o" in "No" for the serial number are going the wrong way.....the #2 in the serial number is vastly different...check out the "r" in Voigtlander.......etc.......but more importantly, the script shows a very unsteady hand compared to Voigtlander, Dietzler and other makers of that region and time period. Look at the "V" and "g" and "l" compare..... the "L" is especially different...

Take a peek at the attached to see even more differences..

Dan

[goamules]

Thanks for the graphics! Couldn't help myself, there are more than this:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2850/12487816625_3fe7e5c8ed_b.jpg

[CCHarrison]

GA - one can really tell the difference in the engraving quality by the side-by-side image above.

Another early Voigt is at ebay # 2761, but the price is insane. Seller (camera shop) is asking $ 12.5K. Heck, I will sell them my Voigt # 611 for half that !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-EARLY-Brass-Voigtlander-Sohn-in-Wien-Petzval-Lens-c-1846-1847-S-2761-/191063837169?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item2c7c4ac9f1

Dan

[goamules]

Yeah, I kept trying to toggle between the 3 and finally had to get them all on one page.

Ha! Yeah, me too with some of my early ones! My earliest is a 5,xxx if I recall, in Voigts. Have a few 3 digits from other makes though.

[CCHarrison]

I added my fake Voigtlander lens (4237) to the party..... for those who havent seen what I believe to be a faked or counterfeit Voigtlander 1/4 plate Petzval, see http://antiquecameras.net/blog.html about half way down the page Nov 4, 2013 blog post...

Dan


http://antiquecameras.net/images/fakev.jpg

[bracan]

Here is my fake Heliar!

110497
110498
110499
110500

[bracan]

110501

[pierre506]

How bad about the fake heliar's aperture number！！！！！

[Leigh]

Many of the preceding arguments fail to recognize that manufacturing in the 19th Century was done by individual craftsmen, not on assembly lines.

Manufacturing complete parts (barrels) or assemblies by individuals results in far more variation than modern methods.

- Leigh

[CCHarrison]

Having studied hundreds of Voigtlander lenses from the 1840s to the 1890s, there is actually remarkable consistency of construction details and engravings for decades. Your broad, sweeping generalization doesn't really hold in this case. If you go to my blog you'll find actual visual evidence of the consistency of their engravings.

110512

[Steven Tribe]

Your broad, sweeping generalization doesn't really hold in this case.

In fact, it doesn't hold for virtually all major makers.
There were real production lines, with lathes set up for the different operations on brass. The separate stages of working the glass were done by different individuals at work stations with different equipment, and with different levels of skill and experience. The engraving was done by somebody who did nothing else and who probably had templates to help with size and spacing.

Copperplate engraving was still a common skill in the 19th century so it is to be expected, that, especialy with the larger sized engraving used in the years before engraving machines were developed, reasonably well-made fakes appeared and circulated.

[goamules]

Concur. There was amazing consistency with good makers of anything in the 19th century. On lenses, if they could cut all those threads and fittings, the engraving was easy. And it was done with templates and jigs and pattern books. It was only the back alley counterfeiter hacks that produced the junk imitations.

[Shootar401]

If it works, just shoot it. No need crying over this.

[Brassai]

I was interested in the "2804 Voigtlander" too as I have Nr. 2913 that was butchered for stops. It measures the same diameter, and I was thinking I might be able to put the rear group from my lens into the uncut one. However, after closely comparing the engraving on my lens to the photos, I just didn't feel very confident. And, no way I'm paying a thousand bucks for an incomplete lens. I'm sticking with what I have.

I too think the people making lenses at that time period knew what they were doning, took a lot of pride in it, and there just wasn't all that much variability in the engraving etc.

[goamules]

If it works, just shoot it. No need crying over this.

No one is. This is an interesting study by lens scholars. But I wouldn't tell the owner who just bought a fake Tiffany lamp or Rolex "If it works, just use it and don't worry..." Yes, they work, but the interest here is how and why they were faked, and their recognition.

[Louis Pacilla]

Kind of funny because it was more then likely manufactured by Darlot anyhow.

Here's the eBay link on this terrible deal. http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-DARLOT-PARIS-brass-LENS-MADE-FOR-SIDNEY-HERBERT-/221386295287?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338ba6c7f7

[Steven Tribe]

Herbert Sydney was a Magic Lantern retailer in Boston. So he knew where he got his lens from - active around 1895.

[Louis Pacilla]

Herbert Sydney was a Magic Lantern retailer in Boston. So he knew where he got his lens from - active around 1895.


Hey Steven

Maybe it's an authentic engraving (time wise) but the "Portrait Lens" is why I have/had my doubts. I'll say this though, seeing how "Portrait Lens" was a generic name for the Petzval design & "Portrait Lens" meant more to folks buying Magic Lanterns. The Petzval name may have meant little to the general public by the late 1800's.

I would imagine that Herbert Sydney could have bought them from Darlot for much less sans the factory engraving & then HS & Co. was responsible for hiring their own engraver. If so in this case the fellow was not so good.:rolleyes:

[Nine7Three]

Hi All-
I recently acquired a Voigtlander Lens and looking for additional info on lens. I did extensive research to make sure the engraving matched up but 2 things i can't place or find on another Voigtlander I've seen out there.

Things that Match- from other blogs and help from a thread from this forum the engraving looks on point ,rack and pinion gear drive, and overall design of lens seems to match. From the serial number the 8's match a few I've seen on eBay,and script seems to be legit.

Things that look odd- F4 engraved on lens. I have never seen this on any out there (maybe added later?) Black paint? I know Heliar design are black but from Serial# this pre dates the Heliar lens (Maybe it was painted to prevent tarnish?)

Looking for any info at all.

Thanks
Michael

175203175204

[Louis Pacilla]

It has been painted at one point in it's life and the F4 certainly could have been added. It's not a Fake Voigtlander though. The other engraving looks original.

[Nine7Three]

Thanks! Yes, my thought exactly i don't have it in my hands yet but seems to have a brass patina under the black paint. fingers crossed it will make an image on the 8x10
It has been painted at one point in it's life and the F4 certainly could have been added. It's not a Fake Voigtlander though. The other engraving looks original.

[Steven Tribe]

Certainly genuine!

All these early Petzvals are without any information ex-makers and if a portrait studio had a whole battery of Petzvals with different speeds, then it would be logical to add data to insure against wrong exposure times from studio staff!

[Nine7Three]

Thanks Steven, yes that would make sense! i'm excited to put it back to work!!!
Certainly genuine!

All these early Petzvals are without any information ex-makers and if a portrait studio had a whole battery of Petzvals with different speeds, then it would be logical to add data to insure against wrong exposure times from studio staff!

[Steven Tribe]

Black suddenly became the mode finish and perhaps the Studio didn't want to look old fashioned so did a quick make-over of it's 30 year old lenses. You mention Heliars, but some of the early ones were brass with a clear lacquer finish. Later Heliars are black to cover a rather dull (and brittle!) aluminium alloy, as well as for æsthetic reasons.

[Nine7Three]

Great Point! My early 1900's Wollensak VESTA is all black now its got a studio mate to fit in with! Yes, I'm not as familiar with Heliars it was just a thought. but your on point they are brittle! all i see on eBay are chewed up Heliars asking big $


Black suddenly became the mode finish and perhaps the Studio didn't want to look old fashioned so did a quick make-over of it's 30 year old lenses. You mention Heliars, but some of the early ones were brass with a clear lacquer finish. Later Heliars are black to cover a rather dull (and brittle!) aluminium alloy, as well as for æsthetic reasons.

[dap]

This may be a dumb question, but if it was repainted how on earth did they manage to not get any paint in the original engravings?

[Drew Wiley]

Just fill the engraving with wax, wipe the balance carefully off with a cloth slightly moistened with mild solvent, let the paint dry, then solvent out the wax.

[Jac@stafford.net]

This may be a dumb question, but if it was repainted how on earth did they manage to not get any paint in the original engravings?

The paint of that time dried slowly enough that a person could chase it from the engraving with a toothpick, or dental explorer kind of instrument. I have done the same on some custom motorcycle parts with modern auto paint minus the hardener. After a few months curing, it lasted thirty years.

[Nine7Three]

yes, this process would explain how neat the engraving stayed during painting. Thanks!


Just fill the engraving with wax, wipe the balance carefully off with a cloth slightly moistened with mild solvent, let the paint dry, then solvent out the wax.

[nadoske]

Hello!

Just found one

[Steven Tribe]

And the barrel is also back-to-front! Or, front and rear cells have been reversed after cleaning! I have made several purchases on auctions where this misplacement gives the lens an odd appearance and discourages bidders.