Does travel cause sheet film to shift in holders?

[AtlantaTerry]

Earlier this month I drove about 150 miles out to the set of a period motion picture film to create portraits of some of the actors in mid-1840s costume. Sadly, it rained so I could not create one portrait. Then, of course, I had to drive back home.

Then I did the same thing this past weekend - I drove 300 miles round trip again. This time I was able to create portraits of four of the actors.

When I got back I had 18 sheets of film exposed. But when I tried to remove the sheets of Arista.EDU Ultra 100 to develop them, about 1/3 had shifted inside their holders. So much so that I had to actually struggle to get them out.

I know how to load sheet film holders, I've been doing it for 50 years. So I assume I'm loading correctly. Can long distance driving actually cause film to shift in the holders?

BTW, the negatives show the blank areas along the five inch sides to be uneven therefore at some point prior to being exposed, the sheets of film shifted.

I carry the film with the dark slide handles facing down in an old Speed Graphic case. I will be going back to the film set this weekend and am considering using the same film holders but this time transporting them flat, just to see what happens.

I store my processed 4x5 film in acid-free Print File Archival pages (4 to a page) after writing information on the negatives with an India Ink pen.

To show y'all what is going on I taped one of my Print File pages onto my LCD monitor and photographed it with my Nikon D3S. Sorry, but I was not perfectly centered on the negative when I copied it so the representation below is a bit crooked. But the important thing I want to show is how uneven the two blank areas along the 5 inch sides of the film are. You can also see that the blank areas along the 4 inch top and bottom edges is quite uneven. As I said, this indicates to me that the film shifted in the holder some time prior to exposure.

Thank goodness the negative is sharp where I focused on her eyes.

I would appreciate any tips or suggestions as to how to prevent this from happening again.

Thank you.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40499026/%23131026AB3255%20-%20shifted%20in%20holder.jpg

Technical Information for "Field Slave"
camera: Crown Graphic
lens: Tele-Congo 240mm
exposure: 1/60 at f.16
lighting: bright sun behind her + a gold "pop-up" reflector to fill the shadows
film: Arista.EDU Ultra 100
developer: D76 1:1
actress: Gelena Piper
location: 2,000 acre cotton farm in Unadilla, Georgia USA
motion picture title "Doin' Time"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2883090/combined
4x5 sheet film holder: one of two "no name" units that I bought a couple years ago from an eBay vendor based in Los Angeles, California USA. The two halves of each film holder are riveted together. The funny thing is there are no 4 inch ribs across the holders which are supposed to be there so they can drop into the channel in the camera back both for registration and minor light baffle. I fully suspect these are some sort of Chinese "clones". At least they don't stink like cat pee. :)

[Drew Wiley]

Nice portrait, but otherwise, I've never, ever had anything like that happen. But then, I've always used name-brand holders like Fidelity or Lisco in good condition.

[adelorenzo]

I've seen advice to 'rap' the film holder before shooting to make sure the film is settled straight. Oh yes, it was on this very site:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/how-to-operate.html

I have never personally done this but it might be something to try?

[Daniel Stone]

sure the film isn't 9x12cm?

9cm = 3 & 35/64 inches

9x12 will fit into 4x5" holders, but not the other way around IIRC

-Dan

[AtlantaTerry]

sure the film isn't 9x12cm?

9cm = 3 & 35/64 inches

9x12 will fit into 4x5" holders, but not the other way around IIRC

-Dan

Dan,

All I have to go on is the box the film came in. The label says:
100
The Educators Choice
ARISTA.EDU
=== ULTRA ===
4" x 5" 50 sheets NIF
ONLY OPEN IN TOTAL DARKNESS

[AtlantaTerry]

Anthony,

Thanks for the tip. I will add it to my workflow.

But I don't know if it will help because when I was removing the sheets of film to develop them, they were actually stuck, not loose as they should have been. I had to pull hard to force them out of the holders.

[Heroique]

When you remove film sheets from the holder, be sure to get hold of the sheet in the middle of the side, before pulling.

If you're holding the sheet to the left or right, it might not want to come out smoothly, since the force of pulling is favoring one side.

-----
I'm a devout tapper, every time before placing the holder in my camera.

Just remember to tap the correct side!

[AtlantaTerry]

When you remove film sheets from the holder, be sure to get hold of the sheet in the middle of the side, before pulling.

If you're holding the sheet to the left or right, it might not want to come out smoothly, since the force of pulling is favoring one side.


Remember that I wrote only 1/3 of the sheets of film had this problem. The others were easily removed. Since I always use the same removal technique, I don't think that is the root of the problem.

Thanks, anyhoo.

[Michael Clark]

Looks like that film was to small for the holder from the way the edges look, it was chocked a bit to one side.

[Keith Fleming]

Micheal Clark may be on to the problem. You may have a box of film with some sheets trimmed slightly too small. It might be a good idea to check out the film in the darkroom to see if that is the problem.

[Heroique]

I think the evidence still suggests some inconsistent sheet pulling, even if it's slight.

Be this as it may, some simple testing would help – in the light.

You might design a test in the following manner:

Sacrifice a single film sheet (using the same film type you used in the field) to test all your holders. Test the "bad" holders that gave you the problem, plus the "good" holders that did not. Your careful field notes will tell you which is which. ;^)

For each holder: load the film, close the holder, then open the holder, and unload the film, keeping a sharp, critical eye on your process and its results. (Before the unloading step, you may even want to give the holder a shake or two, imitating your travels to and from a shooting location, and when you open the holder, examine whether the film position has shifted in an undesirable way.)

Next, go ahead and unload the film sheet, with close observation.


— If the "jamming" is repeated in the "bad" holders only, that could suggest a holder problem.
— If it's repeated in "good" holders, that could suggest a problem with your technique, not the holders.
— If the problem isn't repeated at all, you may have just had some rare bad luck.

In any case, a simple test (or two) will help isolate the problem and solve the mystery.

[AtlantaTerry]

Now I know what the problem was. About the same time Heroique was typing, I was testing the film holders with a fogged sheet of Arista.EDU Ultra 100 and a fogged sheet of some other film.

First of all, all my sheet film holder sides are numbered with Brother TZ labels. In my field notes I always write down the holder side number, the exposure, the subject, etc. Before I develop the film I make a list of which holders I will be developing and in what sequence.

Remember when I wrote that 2 of the 9 sheet film holders were (I think) some sort of Chinese clones that don't even have a 4 inch rib? Because of my notes, I know the 3 sheets of film that were stuck were from those holders.

Also remember that I said those holders were put together with rivets? The problem is this: during transport the two halves of the holder can just slightly have a gap between them. Then the film can slide into that gap and jam.

Back in the darkroom the two halves are pinching the film thereby making it a struggle to remove the film.

Sherlock Holmes would be proud that I figured out what was wrong.

I taped the dark slides shut and wrote "Do Not Use" on the tape. Oh well, $32 down the drain...

Thanks to all for your input.

PS
I keep an Excel spreadsheet of all my photography purchases, especially those from eBay.

Data about the two 4x5 sheet film holders:
eBay description: 2PCS NEW IN BOX TILTALL 4X5 VIEW CAMERA CUT FILM HOLDER
eBay seller: David Riddle Company
location: Van Nuys, California 91406
price: $24.99 + 6.87 shipping
date: August 15, 2005
:( too late to ask for a refund, huh?

[Doremus Scudder]

Chiming in late here, but maybe my post will be of interest to others reading the thread.

FWIW, I travel great distances (e.g., 17,000-mile road trip a couple of summers ago through BC, Yukon, Alaska and back to the States) with lots of film holders, Riteway, Fidelity, Lisco and Graphlex holders. All of my holders are used; picked up cheap on eBay, etc. (some of them are wooden and very old). My travels are often off-road and the holders bump and jostle around along with everything else. I usually travel with 50 holders, stored in individual Zip-Loc bags and standing handles-up in a cooler.

I have never experienced the problem that Terry reports with his Tiltall holders. The only time I've had film come out skewed like Terry's example was when I accidentally mis-loaded the film, missing one of the rails when inserting the film.

It's good to know that Tiltall holders have problems and are likely to be avoided. I can confirm the serviceability of the above brands from my years of experience.

Terry, maybe there's a way to modify/repair your Tiltall holders; tightening up the rivets, sealing the cracks with some PVC cement, etc.?

Best,

Doremus

[AtlantaTerry]

Terry, maybe there's a way to modify/repair your Tiltall holders; tightening up the rivets, sealing the cracks with some PVC cement, etc.?

Best,
Doremus

Doremus,

Thank you for the input. I had not thought about tightening the rivets but it is certainly something I could do. I inherited a blind rivet tool from my father so have the equipment to do the job.

At first I was thinking about putting the holders in a clamp, drilling out then replacing the rivets one at a time. But as I sat here typing it came to me to, instead, drill out all six of the rivets, glue the two halves together then install new rivets.

That would take care of both of your suggestions to seal the cracks and tighten the rivets.

Another rainy day project...

Thanks again,
Terry

[E. von Hoegh]

"Tiltall" filmholders? There's a clue right there, someone capitalising on a once well respected name in... tripods(!).
I was reading this thread, trying to figure aout how the sheets could do what they did.
FWIW, I use Riteway 4x5 holders, I have about 20 that I acquired used in the late 1980s & I've never had any problem whatever with them. They cost something in the $4-6 each range.

[BrianShaw]

At least there is truth in labeling: all of the film seems to tilt in Tiltall holders. :D

[Ari]

I stick with Toyo holders, only; I've found them to be the straightest, best-built film holders, with very tight tolerances.
After too many problems that were blamed on old and poor-quality holders, I spent the extra money getting 4x5 and 8x10 Toyo holders, and have not had any problems side.

[AtlantaTerry]

Ari,

You must be one of the fortunate ones who bought Toyo film holders that do not stink like cat pee.

Over time I have also purchased film holders such as Ritway and Fidelity Elite from various eBay sellers so now have almost 100. So setting aside the two "Tiltall" holders will not be a problem.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I have had this happen.

When loading the film, at times I only get one side under the interior flange (only word I can think of) and the other side rests on top. Then, when I remove the dark slide it can shift. I know this has occurred because when I unload the holder the film seems to be "stuck". Normally I do this when either I am in a hurry and don't check each holder to make sure the film is loaded correctly or when I am so dang bored loading 60 holders that I drift off into never never land.

It is always a good practice to lightly bump the holder on your hand just prior to inserting it into the camera as this does help to make sure the film, if loaded correctly, lays as level as possible. If it is a horizontal image, bump the long side that will be at the bottom of the ground glass. If it is a vertical image, just bump the short side.

I use all sorts of holders and other than an occasional light leak, I find that most do the job very well.

It is a good idea to mark the interior flap of each holder with a notch to number them so that if one does have an issue, you can easily identify it and pull it for repairs or retirement.

Good luck.

[Ari]

Hey Terry,
I have owned many Toyo holders, none has had an unpleasant odour, or any odour at all.
But they're so good, even donkey-dung wouldn't stop me from using them.

[AtlantaTerry]

Hey Terry,
I have owned many Toyo holders, none has had an unpleasant odour, or any odour at all.
But they're so good, even donkey-dung wouldn't stop me from using them.

Then I guess you have not seen the thread somewhere around here where people are complaining about that issue. Or if you have you were fortunate enough to not have received one that reeks.

[AtlantaTerry]

Eric,

I tried notching a half dozen of my holders to see what would happen. It wasn't much help.

I will try the bump technique.

I know what you are saying about drifting into Never Never Land. I loaded 10 holders last night and had to double check myself to be sure a couple holders had film on both sides. They did.

[Ari]

Then I guess you have not seen the thread somewhere around here where people are complaining about that issue. Or if you have you were fortunate enough to not have received one that reeks.

No, I am aware of that, I just have never personally been victim to that particular problem.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Nothing is only to provide a system of numbering holders to allow the film to be exposed where the notches are present. This way, when you look at a sheet of film, the notch code will tell you which holder it came from.

Hope you find a solution to the issue, that is a lovely image.

[AtlantaTerry]

No, I am aware of that, I just have never personally been victim to that particular problem.

click: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?8417-Reeking-film-holders&highlight=Toyo+stink

click: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?72302-Toyo-film-holders-stink-and-I-know-why&highlight=Toyo+stink