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StoneNYC
29-Oct-2013, 12:45
Hey guys,

So I'm not super familiar with the petzvel design but I know they don't have a shutter right? You need a camera with it's own curtain?

So can they be fitted with a copal shutter somehow? Would this cause them to lose their look somehow?

Thanks :)

EdSawyer
29-Oct-2013, 14:27
most have no shutter, correct. you could theoretically fit them with a modern shutter, but it would usually have to be a big one, and incur more trouble and expense than it's worth. Better off with a curtain shutter camera (Graflex) or sinar shutter, or packard, a dark hat, etc.

EdSawyer
29-Oct-2013, 14:27
btw, it's Petzval not petzvel. ;-)

Pete Watkins
29-Oct-2013, 14:48
I once glued s step up ring on the front of a short FL magic lantern Petzval that enabled me to front mount a Copal 3 shutter on to the lens. I now have a Sinar Norma and a Sinar Copal shutter ;_)
Pete.

StoneNYC
29-Oct-2013, 14:51
btw, it's Petzval not petzvel. ;-)

Ahhh! Mods quick fix my title so I look (less) idiotic! Haha

Wouldn't acquiring a second camera be more expensive than adding a shutter?

Also, I don't want to carry a camera with a shutter up a mountain if I don't have to... More for bulk reasons than weight.

jcoldslabs
29-Oct-2013, 14:54
I use my smaller Petzvals with a Speed Graphic. For my 8x10 Petzvals I shoot in low light or use slow film. You could always use a 3x or 10x ND filter to the front to slow things down for use in bright sunlight.

I don't see how a shutter would alter the "look" of the lens unless the shutter opening were significantly smaller than the lens diameter.

Jonathan

EDIT: I picked up a Speed Graphic in reasonable shape with functioning focal plane shutter for $75. A No. 3 Copal would probably cost three times that.

Brassai
29-Oct-2013, 15:13
My solution was to buy a very small Petzval and have a mount made for it by SK Grimes. It's lots of fun!

StoneNYC
29-Oct-2013, 15:22
My solution was to buy a very small Petzval and have a mount made for it by SK Grimes. It's lots of fun!

Nice!

There's a kick starter now (or was, it might have ended with success) for a "new" petzval, it's not quite a petzval I'm told it's similar and the images definitely look like a petzval.

Yours might have cost less :)

StoneNYC
29-Oct-2013, 15:24
I use my smaller Petzvals with a Speed Graphic. For my 8x10 Petzvals I shoot in low light or use slow film. You could always use a 3x or 10x ND filter to the front to slow things down for use in bright sunlight.

I don't see how a shutter would alter the "look" of the lens unless the shutter opening were significantly smaller than the lens diameter.

Jonathan

EDIT: I picked up a Speed Graphic in reasonable shape with functioning focal plane shutter for $75. A No. 3 Copal would probably cost three times that.

Thanks,

I think that for $250 that makes more sense for me to add a copal 3 for my toyo45a...

Jim C.
29-Oct-2013, 15:35
Nice!

There's a kick starter now (or was, it might have ended with success) for a "new" petzval, it's not quite a petzval I'm told it's similar and the images definitely look like a petzval.

Yours might have cost less :)

I think you mean this - Lomography Petzval (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?105521-Lomography-teaser-a-Petzval)

StoneNYC
29-Oct-2013, 16:00
I think you mean this - Lomography Petzval (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?105521-Lomography-teaser-a-Petzval)

Yes, I didn't realize it was lomography

This is more detailed with a video.

It seems worth at least the cheaper options, I can't see it going for LESS than $400 can you?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lomography/the-lomography-petzval-portrait-lens

goamules
29-Oct-2013, 16:59
You didn't say what size film, but it's sounding like 4x5. The problem is Petzvals are larger than most lenses, to get proper coverage, and a 4" Speed Graphic board won't hold many that will cover. Same with digital coverage, it takes a LOT of looking to get the right combination of coverage, speed, and focal length for digitals. But I can be done, I have a small on for Micro 4/3.

The Lomo "petzval" marketing and design leave a lot of questions, it appears all they know is the design is popular, and should sell. I can't tell if they put any research into actually making it good. If I recall, it's slow. I would stay away from it, and look for an original. You may have to get a slow one, F6 or so, just to fit your mounting plan.

Oh yeah, shutters. You can use a Packard, Studio, IlexPo, or Galli (handheld) shutter, and shoot in shade or dim light. Bright sun, you'll have to stop down or rig an old shutter somehow or use a Focal Plane shutter (speed graphic).

StoneNYC
29-Oct-2013, 17:37
You didn't say what size film, but it's sounding like 4x5. The problem is Petzvals are larger than most lenses, to get proper coverage, and a 4" Speed Graphic board won't hold many that will cover. Same with digital coverage, it takes a LOT of looking to get the right combination of coverage, speed, and focal length for digitals. But I can be done, I have a small on for Micro 4/3.

The Lomo "petzval" marketing and design leave a lot of questions, it appears all they know is the design is popular, and should sell. I can't tell if they put any research into actually making it good. If I recall, it's slow. I would stay away from it, and look for an original. You may have to get a slow one, F6 or so, just to fit your mounting plan.

Oh yeah, shutters. You can use a Packard, Studio, IlexPo, or Galli (handheld) shutter, and shoot in shade or dim light. Bright sun, you'll have to stop down or rig an old shutter somehow or use a Focal Plane shutter (speed graphic).

In post #9 I said it was a Toyo45a camera (tapatalk app has different numbers of posts sometimes, but around #9).

I think having a copal-3 shutter added to a petzval would be best for me and how I work.

I'm not sure the Lomo's "petzval" is actually a petzval but it seems to give nice bokah :) and it's GOT to be cheaper at $400 than finding a real petzval and then having it retro-fitted. I'm sure the final price will be more, I actually would have bought in if I had known when the $300 price was available.

jnantz
29-Oct-2013, 17:40
the wollensak vitax is sort of like a petzval with a defocus knob ( they made a 10" which would be OK for head/shoulders portraits on a 4x5 )
it came as a barrel ( no shutter ) as well as a studio shutter which could be manipulated to have a slowish shutter speed as well as one that was a bit faster ...
if you find a barrel lens petzval it can often be fitted with a packard shutter. some packards have a flash sync, some don't ...

dsphotog
29-Oct-2013, 18:24
Packard Shutters ARE modern.....
To some of us anyway.

jnantz
29-Oct-2013, 18:29
Packard Shutters ARE modern.....
To some of us anyway.

not sure why they wouldn't be .. from what i understand they are currently being manufactured ...

StoneNYC
29-Oct-2013, 18:39
not sure why they wouldn't be .. from what i understand they are currently being manufactured ...

Hey John! Nice of you to chime in!

I don't know anything about any other shutters but the copal, what limitations do the packards have? Can I use them with my strobes at 1/250th of a second?

Brassai
29-Oct-2013, 21:18
Oh yeah, shutters. You can use a Packard, Studio, IlexPo, or Galli (handheld) shutter, and shoot in shade or dim light. Bright sun, you'll have to stop down or rig an old shutter somehow or use a Focal Plane shutter (speed graphic).


I have a nice little assortment of Petzvals now, and use them on my Chamonix. I considered mounting a smaller one in Copal 3, but instead of adapting the lens I adapted myself. In daylight, I shoot Efke 25 film. Most Petzvals are ~f4. Using Sunny 16, that gives ISO 25--f4--1/400s. I've had good luck just using my hand in a black glove as the shutter, using 1/2s as my shutter speed. To do that, I have to add about 7 stops of ND filter. I usually tape these over either the rear of the lens (inside camera) or over the lens hood of the camera. It works quite well. Sometimes I use a 3-stop blue filter plus 4 stops ND to sort of replicate the look of dry plate.

jnantz
29-Oct-2013, 23:12
Hey John! Nice of you to chime in!

I don't know anything about any other shutters but the copal, what limitations do the packards have? Can I use them with my strobes at 1/250th of a second?

hi stone

the short answer is ... maybe 125 + strobes ...

these 2 links say it much better than i could.
http://www.packardshutter.com/
http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/0038Qp

IanG
30-Oct-2013, 01:51
Despite most sellers claiming they were made before 1900 Thornton Pickard shutters are a great option with Petzval lenses, either the front mounting or between lens type. In fact they were made up until around 1960.

My own Petzval is currently fitted to a 5x4 Speed Graphic but appears to cover 18x24 (only a Visual test so far) and I have 3 larger TP shutters that can be front mounted to it for use on other cameras.

Ian

pasiasty
30-Oct-2013, 04:37
I mounted mine on (the whole petzval's barrel in front of) a Compund #5:

103854 103855

But I'd been lucky to get some other lens (Xenar 240/3.5) with this shutter for reasonable price before.

goamules
30-Oct-2013, 05:24
In post #9 I said it was a Toyo45a camera (tapatalk app has different numbers of posts sometimes, but around #9).

I think having a copal-3 shutter added to a petzval would be best for me and how I work.

I'm not sure the Lomo's "petzval" is actually a petzval but it seems to give nice bokah :) and it's GOT to be cheaper at $400 than finding a real petzval and then having it retro-fitted. I'm sure the final price will be more, I actually would have bought in if I had known when the $300 price was available.

It sounds like you are set on buying the Lomo attempt to cash in, which will be slower, won't have the true signature, and who knows where they got the glass. They are expected to sell for $499, and only cover small format. Lomo has also been contacting my professional photographer friends trying to get free use of their real petzval shots to use in their advertising. My friends declined and put out the warning that they are hypemasters.

But a cursory 3 minute check on Ebay just now, I found 4 or more Petzvals that would fit your camera and cover, for less than $350. I've bought many 4x5 Petzvals for under 100 dollars. You just have to know how to look. Here is one with a $225 buy it now: 161138245407

pasiasty
30-Oct-2013, 05:40
Lomography Petzvals are not supposed to cover much more than 35mm film. They're targeted for hipsters rather than for LF photographers, and their price apparently reflects Veblen effect.

Steven Tribe
30-Oct-2013, 05:49
I must absolutely second what Garrett says about ready availability of Petzvals at very low prices. The plain cine and projection petzvals are often well under 50 usd. I know - I have bought/sold around 10 of these.

jnantz
30-Oct-2013, 06:25
Lomography Petzvals are not supposed to cover much more than 35mm film. They're targeted for hipsters rather than for LF photographers, and their price apparently reflects Veblen effect.

lensbaby sells something similar for probably less than the 500$ price lomo are asking ..
still though, it will only cover a "mini-format-camera"

StoneNYC
30-Oct-2013, 07:13
It sounds like you are set on buying the Lomo attempt to cash in, which will be slower, won't have the true signature, and who knows where they got the glass. They are expected to sell for $499, and only cover small format. Lomo has also been contacting my professional photographer friends trying to get free use of their real petzval shots to use in their advertising. My friends declined and put out the warning that they are hypemasters.

But a cursory 3 minute check on Ebay just now, I found 4 or more Petzvals that would fit your camera and cover, for less than $350. I've bought many 4x5 Petzvals for under 100 dollars. You just have to know how to look. Here is one with a $225 buy it now: 161138245407

No I'm not set on buying one and probably never will. Not from Lomography, I was just saying to have a new one, working, designed for a DSLR without the hassle of retro fitting it, would probably be worth the money.

And thanks I'll look into getting one, perhaps I wasn't finding many because I can't spell for shit haha!

Steven Tribe
30-Oct-2013, 07:46
Most low cost "Petzvals" are not identified as a Petzval in the sales pitch. There are better search terms like "projection lens" "Busch". Look for a longer lens where the front and rear cells are obviously not identical.

IanG
30-Oct-2013, 08:29
I must absolutely second what Garrett says about ready availability of Petzvals at very low prices. The plain cine and projection petzvals are often well under 50 usd. I know - I have bought/sold around 10 of these.

That's my experience as well. There's no point in paying too much for projection Petzvals as they can be found very cheaply at the moment but the new Russian made ones may well drive up the prices as they will be a lower cost alternative.

Ian

jcoldslabs
30-Oct-2013, 17:11
I have four different Baush & Lomb "Cinephor" projection lenses that are all Petzvals; three cover 4x5 and one almost covers 8x10. The most I paid for one was $30. They are fast (f/2.8 - f/4) and have the classic Petzval visual signature. As Steven says they are usually not listed as Petzvals, and not all Cinephor-branded lenses are Petzvals, so it can get very confusing. Typically the older the Cinephor the more likely it is to have Petzval construction.

Below is an example taken with my 6.5" Cinephor on 4x5. Since I can fit it on a Speed Graphic board it would most certainly fit on a Toyo field board. I doubt it would fit into a shutter, however. These are best used with ND filters and the old dark-slide-as-a-shutter routine.


http://www.kolstad.us/ebay/4x5-T-Max-100-Tree-Fence.jpg

Jonathan

StoneNYC
30-Oct-2013, 20:32
I have four different Baush & Lomb "Cinephor" projection lenses that are all Petzvals; three cover 4x5 and one almost covers 8x10. The most I paid for one was $30. They are fast (f/2.8 - f/4) and have the classic Petzval visual signature. As Steven says they are usually not listed as Petzvals, and not all Cinephor-branded lenses are Petzvals, so it can get very confusing. Typically the older the Cinephor the more likely it is to have Petzval construction.

Below is an example taken with my 6.5" Cinephor on 4x5. Since I can fit it on a Speed Graphic board it would most certainly fit on a Toyo field board. I doubt it would fit into a shutter, however. These are best used with ND filters and the old dark-slide-as-a-shutter routine.


http://www.kolstad.us/ebay/4x5-T-Max-100-Tree-Fence.jpg

Jonathan

I don't see any swirls... :(

Still a beautiful image.

goamules
31-Oct-2013, 05:17
Swirls are for suckers.

TheToadMen
31-Oct-2013, 05:30
Make paper negatives (iso 3 to 6) and use your hat as a shutter...

StoneNYC
31-Oct-2013, 08:28
Make paper negatives (iso 3 to 6) and use your hat as a shutter...

I can't really use a strobe with that :(

jnantz
31-Oct-2013, 09:33
I can't really use a strobe with that :(

sure you can ... get a few neutral density filters to cut the light
leave the lens open, flash the light, cover the lens again,
i have done without ND filters in a controlled light situation and it works fine ...
you have to know your light output and know what percentage / WS to fire your strobe
and then how you are going to process the paper negative ...
i just finished processing 19-20 paper negatives i split developed in a hard and soft developer
.. all around 20second exposures in overcast / bright light, at first glance the negatives look exactly like sheet film.
i'll have to see what they look like after they dry down ...

are you looking to use your lens in a studio setting? outdoors?

john

StoneNYC
31-Oct-2013, 10:07
sure you can ... get a few neutral density filters to cut the light
leave the lens open, flash the light, cover the lens again,
i have done without ND filters in a controlled light situation and it works fine ...
you have to know your light output and know what percentage / WS to fire your strobe
and then how you are going to process the paper negative ...
i just finished processing 19-20 paper negatives i split developed in a hard and soft developer
.. all around 20second exposures in overcast / bright light, at first glance the negatives look exactly like sheet film.
i'll have to see what they look like after they dry down ...

are you looking to use your lens in a studio setting? outdoors?

john

You realize a set of nice ND filters will cost me like $200 when a shutter would cost about the same (according to some post above) and yes ND's would help but I don't want to "hat" it, I want it a controlled exposure.

Anyway I'll look for the $30 petzval deal ;)

jnantz
31-Oct-2013, 10:19
hey stone

go to a place like barbizon lighting
you can get a whole sheet of ND filter for only a few bucks
(last time i checked) its not high end b+w glass but it is acetate? mylar? filter ...
the glass you plan on using has defects in it anyways, i don't think mylar/acetate filters are going
to be much different than 200$/filter glass ...
if you end up needing a xenophon (behind the lens filter holder) so you don't have glare-issues let me know i have one i never use.

StoneNYC
31-Oct-2013, 11:51
hey stone

go to a place like barbizon lighting
you can get a whole sheet of ND filter for only a few bucks
(last time i checked) its not high end b+w glass but it is acetate? mylar? filter ...
the glass you plan on using has defects in it anyways, i don't think mylar/acetate filters are going
to be much different than 200$/filter glass ...
if you end up needing a xenophon (behind the lens filter holder) so you don't have glare-issues let me know i have one i never use.

Thanks john, I tend to just buy higher end multi use stuff, so if I got an ND filter set (which I've wanted forever now) it would be 77mm or 82mm to fit all of my lenses for multiple uses. It simplifies things. IF I get a lens, I'll definitely let you know. Thanks :)

TheToadMen
1-Nov-2013, 09:13
Hi Stone,
Maybe this is an option??

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum379/124147-small-darlot-petzval.html

Bert

StoneNYC
1-Nov-2013, 10:02
Hi Stone,
Maybe this is an option??

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum379/124147-small-darlot-petzval.html

Bert

Oh thanks I'll contact Whitey!