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View Full Version : Want to get into LF and looking for input



seven10
28-Oct-2013, 15:20
Hi, I'm a medium format shooter primarily and I have been really interested in jumping into LF for architecture and landscapes because of the amount of movements LF cameras offer.

From what I have read around the forums already it seems like I really should consider a monorail setup when shooting architecture and I'd just like some input on the setups I've been considering. Ideally I'd like to have a somewhat light setup to be able to hike with, but I'm no stranger to hiking with 25lbs+ of MF gear for days.

So far I'm considering the following used cameras; a Sinar Norma, Horseman 450, or spending much more and getting a Toyo VX125. The Norma seems to be highly recommended, but how is the speed of setup and tear down? I can't seem to find much on the Horseman, but the prices used make it an attractive option. The Toyo seems like it's a great blend of field camera weight and monorail movements, though I can't find a lot of information on how it actually is.

What one should I consider most or are their other cameras I should look at? Whichever camera I get I'd like to start with probably a 75mm & 90mm lens and keep my budget for body, film holders, lens, loupe, anything I'm missing at or under $3,000.

Thanks,

Justin

gregmo
28-Oct-2013, 16:46
I have a Horseman 450 LE. Its not very heavy, but is very sturdy with geared movements. I'm pretty young & fit so a few extra camera lbs doesn't matter to me. You will need a recessed lens board for the wider lenses. I have a 35mm recessed board for my 90mm Caltar ll-n. Add a dark cloth to your buy list and a separate lens board for each lens.
I have a backpack from photo backpacker & it allows me to keep the camera in one piece for transporting, so set up is quick.

Luis-F-S
28-Oct-2013, 18:27
I'd consider the Norma or a Sinar F2. I have the F2 and it's a great camera though a bit larger and probably more "delicate" than the Norma. I think you can get the F2 pretty reasonable. You can get bag bellows for it, the reflex bino viewer which is quite handy, extra standards, etc. I used the 90 more than the 72 when I was shooting architecture. I have a complete Sinar F2 system with 7 lenses (47, 58, 65, 75, 90 115 & 180) that I used for architecture and have not used it for probably 15 years. Pitty, someday I'll probably get rid of it. Good luck!

John Kasaian
28-Oct-2013, 18:38
Get a Calumet 400 and a used 90mm SA or similar from Rodenstock, Fuji, Nikon, or Ilex/Caltar. I was looking at Keh Camera's prices and that kit should run you less than $400, more than enough to buy film and holders and still be under budget.
Then play with it.
That friend, will tell you a lot about if LF is for you and what sort of gear you'll eventually want to settle on.

agregov
29-Oct-2013, 00:08
Given you're new to 4x5, it might not be critical you start with a camera with geared movements, but rather focus on something light as you seem to prefer to be fairly mobile. If the camera is a pain to move around, you may be discouraged in using it.

The real advantage (IMO) of monorails is geared movements. But they can be heavy. Often the Sinars are used more for studio work than in the field--though you can totally make it work if you want. I started with a Tachihara for my first 4x5 and after my first use, I knew I'd needed to move to a camera with more solid movements. With field cameras, the standards can be "floppy" which are really annoying for precise architectural work. That said, I loved my Tachihara because it was super light (~3.5 pounds), had full movements and had no problem with lenses from 90mm to 240mm in my kit. It was a super camera to learn on. I now use an Arca F Field Compact (with Orbix) and while all the movements aren't officially geared, they are very precise. It's a super field camera but spendy new.

One possible direction is to start with a light, relatively inexpensive field camera, and then if you really enjoy 4x5 invest in a Arca, Ebony non folding camera or similar. Richard Sexton offers some interesting thoughts on the advantages of a non folding (http://www.ebonycamera.com/rev/45SU.Sexton.html) view camera for architecture. Worth reading.

There was a Robert White Ebony for sale recently that you might consider. It has very limited movements but rise/fall is by far the most used movement for architecture along with axial tilt. It would be a high quality starter and may fit your budget. Link (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?107356-FS-Ebony-RSW45-%A3800&highlight=ebony+rws)

Good luck.

Drew Bedo
29-Oct-2013, 07:53
Moving "up" to LF is not the same as moving from 35mm to MF. There is more to it than learning to controle a new camera and compose in a new format.

My advice is to start with a relativly low investment in used gear and see how you like dealing with the whole creative process.

Watever you decide, let us know and post a few images.

Alan Gales
29-Oct-2013, 09:05
If you live in the United States the best bang for your buck is arguably the Sinar. There are of course cheaper monorails but there is just so much used Sinar gear on the market that it's pretty easy to find whatever you are looking for. If you want light weight the Norma or F2 as mentioned above are great choices.

If you would rather start out with a cheaper camera to get your feet wet that's not a bad idea. By buying used at a fair price you will get most of your money back if you later decide to sell and upgrade to something else. Just consider any money you lose as a cheap rental fee.

As far as set up goes, it depends on how much you break a monorail down for transporting to location. I keep my Sinar P all together with a lens mounted, hanging upside down in a plastic Calumet case. Set up is super fast this way. Some people remove the lens and bellows and turn the standards sideways for carrying in a backpack. I have heard of others going further and removing the standards from the rail.

seven10
29-Oct-2013, 11:52
Thanks for all the input, I'm pretty sure I'll stick with LF, but I definitely need time to learn and experiment. The only movements I've been able to use in the past were a couple degrees of shift on my Mamiya 645 setup. Rather than get the tilt-shift adapter for my RZ67 and be limited to small amount of movement I figured it would be better to put that money toward an LF setup.

As far as the Sinar F2 is concerned, is it much less durable than the Norma or P2? I saw some mixed feedback on here about it, which was why I wasn't really considering it originally.

Andrew O'Neill
29-Oct-2013, 12:21
Get a Calumet 400 and a used 90mm SA or similar from Rodenstock, Fuji, Nikon, or Ilex/Caltar. I was looking at Keh Camera's prices and that kit should run you less than $400, more than enough to buy film and holders and still be under budget.
Then play with it.
That friend, will tell you a lot about if LF is for you and what sort of gear you'll eventually want to settle on.

That is sound advice by John. That is how I entered LF.

Alan Gales
29-Oct-2013, 13:22
As far as the Sinar F2 is concerned, is it much less durable than the Norma or P2? I saw some mixed feedback on here about it, which was why I wasn't really considering it originally.

The Norma was replaced with the P series and F series cameras. From what I have read the P stands for perfection and the F stands for field. The P series is a heavy all geared studio camera and the F series is a much lighter weight model. Of the P's, some people prefer the P and some the P2. The F2 is the latest and best of the F series.

So to answer your question, yes, the P series is heavier duty but also much heavier in weight. I own a P and I have also owned an F that I parted out and kept the parts that I wanted. The cool thing about Sinar is that you can mix parts amongst the different models.

I have never had the opportunity to play with a Norma. From what I have read it is also heavier duty than the F2 but I don't know what a Norma weighs.

jeroldharter
29-Oct-2013, 14:31
I don't have Sinar gear, but from what I can tell it is built like a tank, heavy, and regular monorails are not very convenient to carry in the field. Of course, many people seem to carry a 100 pound donkey cart on their backs, but count me out. From the criteria you posted and from the choices you listed, the Toyo VX seems like an obvious winner. It is a monorail, but lightweight and compact. It works well with the wide angle lenses you want to work with and it has plenty of movements. Toyo is high quality. The main limitation of the Toyo is bellows length which will be a problem with 300mm + lenses. I think it barely covers 300 at infinity but I can't remember for sure. If you have to pick between 75 and 90 mm lenses, I would start with 90 as a first lens. 75 is really wide, generally harder to focus, and movements can be more difficult due to bellows compression on some cameras.

Brassai
29-Oct-2013, 15:10
You also start getting into issues of needing an expensive center grad filter with really wide lenses like the 75mm. Try a 90mm first, then go wider if needed.

Leigh
29-Oct-2013, 15:55
As far as the Sinar F2 is concerned, is it much less durable than the Norma or P2?
The F2 is a very rugged camera. It's specifically designed for field use.

It is lighter than the P2, which is intended strictly as a studio camera.
However, that does not mean it's flimsy in any sense of the word.

I have a 4x5 F2 and a real* 8x10 F2, and have used both in the field with no issues whatsoever.

I would (and did) choose the F2 over the earlier Norma primarily because it's a newer model, and parts are readily available should any be needed in the future.

- Leigh

*NB: My 8x10 F2 is factory-built, with the heavy-duty front and rear standards.
You can also build an 8x10 using lighter components similar to those used in the 4x5 camera.

Leigh
29-Oct-2013, 16:00
You also start getting into issues of needing an expensive center grad filter with really wide lenses like the 75mm.
I use both 75mm and 65mm Nikkor SW lenses on 4x5 without a center filter, and have never noticed a problem on any shots. Nikon did not even make center filters for those lenses.

Perhaps you could identify some light fall-off in the corners if you use a densitometer on the negative, but it doesn't show up on prints or scans.

- Leigh

Bernice Loui
29-Oct-2013, 18:46
Depends, on color transparency film, light fall off is quite visible. On negative type films, light fall off may be more acceptable.

It pretty much comes down to the expectations and sensitivity of the image maker.

Regardless, light fall off on wide angle lenses is reality, question is how much is acceptable as with how much correction is required to make resulting image acceptable.

Back in the days when I was doing a lot of 4x5 color transparency images with a 90mm, the light fall off was just acceptable, with a 75mm light fall off was NOT acceptable, a 65mm was worst yet.


Bernice



I use both 75mm and 65mm Nikkor SW lenses on 4x5 without a center filter, and have never noticed a problem on any shots. Nikon did not even make center filters for those lenses.

Perhaps you could identify some light fall-off in the corners if you use a densitometer on the negative, but it doesn't show up on prints or scans.

- Leigh

Bernice Loui
29-Oct-2013, 18:59
Suggest considering what focal length lenses interest you initially, then figure out the type of images you're planning to create, then find the camera that fits these requirements best.

There are SO many complete LF systems with lenses, film holders, and most everything that is needed to burn film for well under $1,000 these days, this should be considered before purchasing new.

If weight and bulk is not a problem, the Horseman L is a very good value and most if it is Sinar compatible. It is a excellent and very under rated monorail with very little market value. The Sinar F or F2 would be a good choice given there is SO many good ones in the market. Good and complete Sinar systems appear on the used market often. It is a matter of waiting for the one that meets your needs best to appear and being ready to purchase when it appears.

Sinar Norma is better built than the F or F2, but then can be more expensive. Still it is a nice camera to use in many ways. It is a bit heavier than the F/F2.
When it comes to accessories and add ons and etc, there is a lot of Sinar stuff on the used market at this time.. IMO, this is a big advantage in the long run specially if you consider the Sinar shutter which allows using barrel lenses or most any lens without a shutter to create images. This is no small difference if experimenting with optics becomes an interest.


Bernice





Hi, I'm a medium format shooter primarily and I have been really interested in jumping into LF for architecture and landscapes because of the amount of movements LF cameras offer.

From what I have read around the forums already it seems like I really should consider a monorail setup when shooting architecture and I'd just like some input on the setups I've been considering. Ideally I'd like to have a somewhat light setup to be able to hike with, but I'm no stranger to hiking with 25lbs+ of MF gear for days.

So far I'm considering the following used cameras; a Sinar Norma, Horseman 450, or spending much more and getting a Toyo VX125. The Norma seems to be highly recommended, but how is the speed of setup and tear down? I can't seem to find much on the Horseman, but the prices used make it an attractive option. The Toyo seems like it's a great blend of field camera weight and monorail movements, though I can't find a lot of information on how it actually is.

What one should I consider most or are their other cameras I should look at? Whichever camera I get I'd like to start with probably a 75mm & 90mm lens and keep my budget for body, film holders, lens, loupe, anything I'm missing at or under $3,000.

Thanks,

Justin

seven10
30-Oct-2013, 14:33
From the criteria you posted and from the choices you listed, the Toyo VX seems like an obvious winner. It is a monorail, but lightweight and compact. It works well with the wide angle lenses you want to work with and it has plenty of movements. Toyo is high quality.

That's also what I have been thinking, but even used it costs three times what I look like I would pay for a Norma, F2, 450, etc. Though, the portability might make it worth it since I would likely stick with it.


The F2 is a very rugged camera. It's specifically designed for field use.

It is lighter than the P2, which is intended strictly as a studio camera.
However, that does not mean it's flimsy in any sense of the word.


Thanks, I've started to lean more toward starting with an F2 and 90mm lens and go from there. I might rent a P2 from Samy's here in LA just to see how it is first and because they don't have the F2.

Darin Boville
30-Oct-2013, 14:47
Get a Calumet 400 and a used 90mm SA or similar from Rodenstock, Fuji, Nikon, or Ilex/Caltar. I was looking at Keh Camera's prices and that kit should run you less than $400, more than enough to buy film and holders and still be under budget.
Then play with it.
That friend, will tell you a lot about if LF is for you and what sort of gear you'll eventually want to settle on.

Whether a Calumet 400 (my second view camera--very underrated) or an F2 or whatever, the spirit of John's comment is exactly right. Spend as little as possible on the camera and lenses (no more than $800, I'd say), buy an instant film back, and spend the other $2100 on film, lots of it the Fuji instant. Don't get caught up the gear buying hamster wheel that photo boards tend to (inadvertently) encourage.

--Darin