Scanners

[Yef]

Hello Everyone

I want to get a scanner for my 4x5 b&w negatives, scanning in labs is what i do now , most of the place i go to use Scitex or a drum scanner.

I was wondering what is possible to buy today beside the hasselblad flextight X1 or the X5. Is there any other (cheaper ) solution ?


thank you

[pasiasty]

Many people (including me) use Epson V700/V750.

[Regular Rod]

For 4x5 the EPSON V700 is perfectly fine. The ordinary holders that come with it are very good for 4x5, no need for any more expensive holders. BUT if you do use 120 as well then you will get better results with 120 if you get a Better Scanning holder with the two ANR glasses. For 4x5 the standard EPSON holder is all you need.

RR

[Leigh]

I've been quite pleased with the results from my Epson V750, scanning film from 35mm through 8x10.

- Leigh

[Lenny Eiger]

With the 750 running around $800 and a used Howtek 4500 drum running around $1500, it's a no brainer for me. I will always choose the drum scanner… Twice as much but still a relatively small amount of money when you consider having other people do the scans for you. Nothing like having a sharp image come out of your scanner…

Lenny

[Daniel Stone]

With the 750 running around $800 and a used Howtek 4500 drum running around $1500, it's a no brainer for me. I will always choose the drum scanner… Twice as much but still a relatively small amount of money when you consider having other people do the scans for you. Nothing like having a sharp image come out of your scanner…

Lenny

100% agree
Flatbeds(of any derivation, from a 750 up to an Iqsmart/Eversmart Supreme II) can deliver great results, but the cleanest/clearest scans I've ever had have been from my drum scanner, wet mounted.
Having both options is nice though, if you can afford both. Proof/preview on the flatbed, then final scan on the drum.
-Dan

[Lenny Eiger]

I use a point and shoot to reverse b&w negs if I really can't tell if I want to print it. Since I have a drum scanner, like yourself, I put things on there all the time just to look at them… Then I don't have to mount it twice, once on the flatbed, another time on the drum scanner.

Lenny

[StoneNYC]

The V750 is pretty good, there's a learning curve, and agree 4x5's holders are decently nice, but betterscanning holders and ANR glass for 120 definitely.

I do wish I could easily scan the whole image though including the frame lines, it's just not as sharp as the holders, more chance of Newton Rings etc if put right on the glass :(

How do you get frame lines from a scan?

[Regular Rod]

The V750 is pretty good, there's a learning curve, and agree 4x5's holders are decently nice, but betterscanning holders and ANR glass for 120 definitely.

I do wish I could easily scan the whole image though including the frame lines, it's just not as sharp as the holders, more chance of Newton Rings etc if put right on the glass :(

How do you get frame lines from a scan?

I've given up on getting the frame lines and have just gotten used to it that way.
:(
RR

[analoguey]

With the 750 running around $800 and a used Howtek 4500 drum running around $1500, it's a no brainer for me. I will always choose the drum scanner… Twice as much but still a relatively small amount of money when you consider having other people do the scans for you. Nothing like having a sharp image come out of your scanner…

Lenny

For the drum scanning, wouldn't the learning curve be rather steep for someone new to it? Given the prices they are tempting, but I am not sure if I can get the knowledge required to run it easily enough!

[Lenny Eiger]

For the drum scanning, wouldn't the learning curve be rather steep for someone new to it? Given the prices they are tempting, but I am not sure if I can get the knowledge required to run it easily enough!

I don't think so. It's true there aren't any books I would point someone to, however, I do have a youtube video of how to mount - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APSzB0nX5Vo

The other part is how to set up a scan. This is just a matter of spreading out tones. Spend an hour with someone who knows what they are doing and you'll have it… It's really not hard.

Lenny

[Heroique]

The V750 is pretty good, there's a learning curve, and agree 4x5's holders are decently nice, but betterscanning holders and ANR glass for 120 definitely.

I do wish I could easily scan the whole image though including the frame lines, it's just not as sharp as the holders, more chance of Newton Rings etc if put right on the glass :(

Often I like the outer film edges too.

To get them, you can always build a homemade mounting station – easy and affordable to do!

Simply use a piece of store-bought, anti-glare glass (say 8x10, etched on one side), and use six or eight pieces of artist’s tape to tape your film to the etched surface. This eliminates Newton rings. You’d flip the glass so the film faces the scanner bed. You can use various things to support and adjust the height of the glass above the bed – for example, post-it note pads. The ideal height is different from scanner to scanner, typically in the realm of 2 or 3mm, but conveniently, the scanner lens provides a healthy amount of DOF.

You might even like it better than the Epson holders, as I do.

[StoneNYC]

Often I like the outer film edges too.

To get them, you can always build a homemade mounting station – easy and affordable to do!

Simply use a piece of store-bought, anti-glare glass (say 8x10, etched on one side), and use six or eight pieces of artist’s tape to tape your film to the etched surface. This eliminates Newton rings. You’d flip the glass so the film faces the scanner bed. You can use various things to support and adjust the height of the glass above the bed – for example, post-it note pads. The ideal height is different from scanner to scanner, typically in the realm of 2 or 3mm, but conveniently, the scanner lens provides a healthy amount of DOF.

You might even like it better than the Epson holders, as I do.

So I can just wet mount it ok the Epson wet mounting glass then? I was trying to avoid wet mounting :/

[Heroique]

So I can just wet mount it ok the Epson wet mounting glass then? I was trying to avoid wet mounting :/

The tape method above is a dry mounting process.

No wetness involved.

(But you can wet mount on a homemade station too.)

[Peter De Smidt]

Heroique didn't say anything about wet-mounting. I did what he suggests for a couple of years. It worked fine. You can certainly wet-mount if you want to, but it's not required. If you shoot a lot of high density slides, say Velvia 50, then a drum scanner would be a much better option because of their greater dynamic range.

Using high resolution chrome-on-glass test targets, Epson scanners max out at about 2400 spi. My dslr scanner maxes out with my D600 at 2900 spi in one direction and 3700 spi in the other with a Rodagon D f4 lens at 1x magnification. Daniel Moore's version with a D800e gets 3700 spi in both directions. My Cezanne tops out at 5800 spi. None of that's to say that resolution is the only thing that matters.

[Regular Rod]

Often I like the outer film edges too.

To get them, you can always build a homemade mounting station – easy and affordable to do!

Simply use a piece of store-bought, anti-glare glass (say 8x10, etched on one side), and use six or eight pieces of artist’s tape to tape your film to the etched surface. This eliminates Newton rings. You’d flip the glass so the film faces the scanner bed. You can use various things to support and adjust the height of the glass above the bed – for example, post-it note pads. The ideal height is different from scanner to scanner, typically in the realm of 2 or 3mm, but conveniently, the scanner lens provides a healthy amount of DOF.

You might even like it better than the Epson holders, as I do.

The snag is that for 8x10 the negative or transparency has to be on the platen glass. The V700 and V750 don't scan 8x10 in any other way. 5x7 is about the biggest that they can scan with the film mounted on or in a holder spaced up from the platen glass.

RR

[analoguey]

I don't think so. It's true there aren't any books I would point someone to, however, I do have a youtube video of how to mount - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APSzB0nX5Vo

The other part is how to set up a scan. This is just a matter of spreading out tones. Spend an hour with someone who knows what they are doing and you'll have it… It's really not hard.

Lenny

Thanks, I'll look up the video.
The second part is a bit tough. The film market is almost non-existent, and scanners even more scarce out here. (I'm looking at importing a drum scanner -not really sure how wise that is)

[analoguey]

Heroique didn't say anything about wet-mounting. I did what he suggests for a couple of years. It worked fine. You can certainly wet-mount if you want to, but it's not required. If you shoot a lot of high density slides, say Velvia 50, then a drum scanner would be a much better option because of their greater dynamic range.

Using high resolution chrome-on-glass test targets, Epson scanners max out at about 2400 spi. My dslr scanner maxes out with my D600 at 2900 spi in one direction and 3700 spi in the other with a Rodagon D f4 lens at 1x magnification. Daniel Moore's version with a D800e gets 3700 spi in both directions. My Cezanne tops out at 5800 spi. None of that's to say that resolution is the only thing that matters.

I know part of your build is documented here. Is the scanning process documented too?

[Heroique]

The snag is that for 8x10 the negative or transparency has to be on the platen glass. The V700 and V750 don't scan 8x10 in any other way. 5x7 is about the biggest that they can scan with the film mounted on or in a holder spaced up from the platen glass.

No snag for the OP who's scanning 4x5 film – not 5x7 or 8x10.

-----
However, you've raised an important point that not every user, or prospective purchaser, knows about the V700/V750 and 8x10 film, so how about a few more tangential comments:

Selecting “Film (w/ Film Area Guide)” activates the lower resolution lens. The so-called “film area guide” is a cheap piece of plastic Epson wants you to lay on the glass, so you can position the negative on the glass in the right place. You must select this option for 8x10 film – that is, unless you want to scan just a portion of it with the higher resolution lens (below).

Selecting “Film (w/ Film Holder)” activates the higher resolution (SHR) lens, which, just as RR suggests, scans a smaller area than 8x10. (BTW, I understand this lens scans at a wider aperture than the lower resolution lens.) So you can indeed scan 8x10 film with a homemade mounting station, just not the entire 8x10 image area. This might be the way to go under some circumstances.

[pasiasty]

Selecting “Film (w/ Film Area Guide)” activates the lower resolution lens. The so-called “film area guide” is a cheap piece of plastic Epson wants you to lay on the glass, so you can position the negative on the glass in the right place. You must select this option for 8x10 film – that is, unless you want to scan just a portion of it with the higher resolution lens (below).

It is like that, but I personally would not stress on 'cheap, plastic, low-resolution'. At 1200 dpi you can print 32x40", with all details visible if one inspect the image with one's nose stuck into it; practically - as much as twice larger. If you have a superior, modern lens giving much over 50 lpm on 8x10, and you need even bigger, fine-detailed printouts - well, this cheap flat-bed is worth perhaps as low, as your lens-caps; you should consider something that matches your lens value. :)

[StoneNYC]

Isn't the wet mounting attachment 8x10? Can't you lay the film in that?

I'll have to check when I get home but I could have sworn it was the same size as the film area guide.

And I use that wet mount all the time to scan off size film I don't have a holder for like 127 or 70mm/116

If the film is curly I lay ANR glass on top to keep it flat.

You wouldn't need the ANR for sheet film so you wouldn't have to worry about newton rings because there wouldn't be enough pressure against the glass to cause them (in my experience they only show up when you really press hard with that holder.

Am I totally off base here?

[pasiasty]

Wet-mounting attachment allows you to mount the film on scanner's bed, so anyway low-resolution lens must be used. Hi-resolution one would be out of focus (and wouldn't cover 8" anyway).

With a specific film (Wephota FO5) I got NR even when the film was just laying on the glass, emulsion down. Therefore I did my EvenBetterScanning undermounting holder:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/883491_10202226077517408_1772566572_o.jpg

[Tobias Key]

I have a HP G4050 which you can buy for £200 and has a holder for 4x5. It is not a great scanner but good enough to preview a negative, and for web use and small enlargements. It is not good enough for critical work but is good enough to let you whether you've got a good neg or not. One word of warning - the software bundled with it is appalling so budget for a copy of vuescan.

[StoneNYC]

Wet-mounting attachment allows you to mount the film on scanner's bed, so anyway low-resolution lens must be used. Hi-resolution one would be out of focus (and wouldn't cover 8" anyway).

With a specific film (Wephota FO5) I got NR even when the film was just laying on the glass, emulsion down. Therefore I did my EvenBetterScanning undermounting holder:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/883491_10202226077517408_1772566572_o.jpg

But the wet mount holder is raised and is the same height as the middle height for the holders?

[pasiasty]

But the wet mount holder is raised and is the same height as the middle height for the holders?
You're right, I'm wrong. But this means wet mounting is up to about 140 mm (5 1/2") wide.

[StoneNYC]

You're right, I'm wrong. But this means wet mounting is up to about 140 mm (5 1/2") wide.

I'm sure you're correct, I'll have to measure when I get home, I could have sworn the glass size in the wet mount was the same as the film area guide.

[Yef]

How good is Scitex EverSmart Jazz+ ?? in comparison to the epson v700 for 4x5 and 120 negs ?

[Yef]

Epson Expression 11000XL- Photo Scanner and how this one in comparison to the epson v700 ?

[spacegoose]

On an Epson 4990 or V700 - does anyone know how to position an 8x10 negative so that all borders show in preview and scan?

I've tried to find some method, but mostly have been unsuccessful. It may take 10 or more preview scans to get close, which is very frustrating.

It seems possible, only because I believe I have seen others achieve it, but with no tolerance for error, it has to be exact, or you will miss, or cut a border.

I imagine it could be different for different emulsions even - depending on the method, e.g. align this notch here.

I think for 8x10, wet mounting on the glass will yield the the best results on these Epson flatbeds due to the focus of the bottom lens which expects the film to be glass level?

I believe if it's dry mounted and raised above the glass you will be focussing to some extent via unsharp mask (not that there's anything wrong with that :)).

Unfortunately wet mounting on these is messy, risks damaging the scanner, and takes the patience and skill I have not yet achieved :(

[pasiasty]

For V700/750 - anywhere within 'Film Area Guide'. I'm afraid it is not possible to properly scan 8x10 using wet mounting accessory, as the accessory requires setting document type to 'Film (with Film Holder)' and then you are limited to about 140mm wide.

[Heroique]

BTW, I would love to hear from a V700/V750 user who, after careful testing, determined that the optimal film height for the lower resolution lens (the one that scans 8x10) was actually above the scanner bed – and best used with a mounting station, wet or dry. ;^)

[StoneNYC]

I just measured for you guys that don't have all the parts ...

Wet mount

104195

Wet mount with "film area guide on top to compare.

104196

Closer look

104197

Ruler images...


104198

[StoneNYC]

More rulers (4 images per post apparently).

104199
104200
104201

[Regular Rod]

More rulers (4 images per post apparently).

104199
104200
104201

Thank you. Those last two show that whole plate film can be scanned as nicely as the 4x5, etc.

It's a pity Epson didn't make it scan 8x10 without the film having to be laid on the platen glass...

It would have been the best, easy to use, scanner on the market!

RR

[StoneNYC]

Thank you. Those last two show that whole plate film can be scanned as nicely as the 4x5, etc.

It's a pity Epson didn't make it scan 8x10 without the film having to be laid on the platen glass...

It would have been the best, easy to use, scanner on the market!

RR

It is strange, even in 120, you can't do 3 images in 6x7 format, and it's not like there's a lot missing, it's probably 1-2mm that get cut off in the 3rd frame, so frustrating...

Obviously a technical issue, there must be a reason, could have simply been a memory issue at the time when these were made, the buffer could only take x data, without the increased chip that would have bumped up the price or something, who knows...

It's hard to see in the second image but the film area guide is on top, I did my best to show but they are both black... Lol

[spacegoose]

For V700/750 - anywhere within 'Film Area Guide'. I'm afraid it is not possible to properly scan 8x10 using wet mounting accessory, as the accessory requires setting document type to 'Film (with Film Holder)' and then you are limited to about 140mm wide.

Not sure if that was a reply to me, but ... my film area guide has a bit of play all around in it, more than the tolerances of getting all the film borders each time, I was referring to wet mounting directly on the platen glass. I understand the mounting station uses the hi-res lens and doesn't cover 8x10. Does it cover 5x7?

If anyone has a direct to glass method to get the 8x10 placement right each time so that film borders show, using or not using the film area guide, I am interested!

To speak to Heroique's query, I was told by an engineer at Aztek (the USA Kami fluid source and scanner people) that the best focus for 8x10 and the platen lens is directly on the glass, though there could be variation between the same model units. My own limited testing shows this to be true, but I haven't done enough scans to say so conclusively. Only that direct to glass and wet scans needed less unsharp masking to bring up the detail than those that were mounted above the glass.

[Simon Liddiard]

I'm following this thread in anticipation of purchasing my first scanner for 4x5, probably an Epson, probably a 750. I briefly looked at second-hand drum scanners but the size and cost make them unfeasible for me. Fro what I can tell at this early stage, an Aztec wet mounting kit might also be a good investment?

I'm based in the UK... if anyone can point me to any resources (other than Calumet or the high street stores) nearer to my longitude then that would be very much appreciated!

[spacegoose]

I'm following this thread in anticipation of purchasing my first scanner for 4x5, probably an Epson, probably a 750. I briefly looked at second-hand drum scanners but the size and cost make them unfeasible for me. Fro what I can tell at this early stage, an Aztec wet mounting kit might also be a good investment?

I'm based in the UK... if anyone can point me to any resources (other than Calumet or the high street stores) nearer to my longitude then that would be very much appreciated!

Have you checked this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeoBknfLlck

[Regular Rod]

I'm following this thread in anticipation of purchasing my first scanner for 4x5, probably an Epson, probably a 750. I briefly looked at second-hand drum scanners but the size and cost make them unfeasible for me. Fro what I can tell at this early stage, an Aztec wet mounting kit might also be a good investment?

I'm based in the UK... if anyone can point me to any resources (other than Calumet or the high street stores) nearer to my longitude then that would be very much appreciated!

I got my V700 from Amazon! Delivered safely to my door.

BTW if you are using 4x5 rather than 8x10 you will find the standard holder is excellent if you don't need the film edge black borders...

RR

[pasiasty]

Not sure if that was a reply to me, but ... my film area guide has a bit of play all around in it, more than the tolerances of getting all the film borders each time, I was referring to wet mounting directly on the platen glass. I understand the mounting station uses the hi-res lens and doesn't cover 8x10. Does it cover 5x7?
I'm not sure if I understand your goal of "getting all the film borders each time".

Yes, hi-res lens covers 5x7, with reasonable margin.


If anyone has a direct to glass method to get the 8x10 placement right each time so that film borders show, using or not using the film area guide, I am interested!
If you don't use the scanner for documents, you may consider gluing some ridges to the glass (with some glue that you can remove easily, e.g. hot-melt one), but this may disable wet mounting.

[StoneNYC]

I'm not sure if I understand your goal of "getting all the film borders each time".

Yes, hi-res lens covers 5x7, with reasonable margin.


If you don't use the scanner for documents, you may consider gluing some ridges to the glass (with some glue that you can remove easily, e.g. hot-melt one), but this may disable wet mounting.

Some people like to scan the boarders so on internet published versions (or even some printed) you can tell it's real film and not digital :)

[Ari]

If anyone has a direct to glass method to get the 8x10 placement right each time so that film borders show, using or not using the film area guide, I am interested!



What I did was make test scan after test scan until I had the 8x10 film perfectly placed so that all borders showed equally.
Then I marked off the position of the film on three sides.
To do this, I placed pieces of masking tape around the glass area with arrows drawn on the tape to indicate each edge of the film.

Now, when I go to scan an 8x10 on the glass, I simply line up the film with the arrows and it's in position every time.

[spacegoose]

Thanks for the info, I think you mentioned before you put the tape on the outside plastic edges and not on the glass?

This sounds like a good method, but definitely will take some time and lots of trial and error to setup, and won't be particularly easy to line up each time, especially if wet mounting.

I guess that's the best that can be hoped for with these scanners.

Do your marks correspond with any of the ruler markings that I believe are on the plastic (I believe they're on the 4990, maybe not the V700/V750)?

[Adam Long]

I'm following this thread in anticipation of purchasing my first scanner for 4x5, probably an Epson, probably a 750. I briefly looked at second-hand drum scanners but the size and cost make them unfeasible for me. Fro what I can tell at this early stage, an Aztec wet mounting kit might also be a good investment?

I'm based in the UK... if anyone can point me to any resources (other than Calumet or the high street stores) nearer to my longitude then that would be very much appreciated!

Simon, you might want to reconsider the drum option. A few months ago I had the same dilemma, then I picked up a Scanmate 4000 on ebay for under £250. The footprint is perhaps twice the size of the epson, but not huge. A friend has a 750 and had spent a lot of time setting it up to get the most of it. The first scan I did on the Scanmate blew it out of the water for detail and dyanmic range, despite being drymounted - the tranny just taped direct to the drum - and me never having used the software before. It's fantastic.

[Ari]

Thanks for the info, I think you mentioned before you put the tape on the outside plastic edges and not on the glass?

This sounds like a good method, but definitely will take some time and lots of trial and error to setup, and won't be particularly easy to line up each time, especially if wet mounting.

I guess that's the best that can be hoped for with these scanners.

Do your marks correspond with any of the ruler markings that I believe are on the plastic (I believe they're on the 4990, maybe not the V700/V750)?

You're welcome.
Yes, plastic edges, not the glass.
It takes about 10-15 minutes of trial and error, but its pretty good once properly done.
With wet mounting, you're kind of forced into position on your first try, and one of your borders may be a little thinner sometimes, but I know of no other way.
The marks roughly correspond with those on my v750, but the most accurate method (until somebody comes up with a better way) is the one I tried.

[Heroique]

To speak to Heroique's query, I was told by an engineer at Aztek (the USA Kami fluid source and scanner people) that the best focus for 8x10 and the platen lens is directly on the glass, though there could be variation between the same model units. My own limited testing shows this to be true, but I haven't done enough scans to say so conclusively...

I'm not sure why, but the forum has almost no discussion about using the lower resolution lens (i.e., the 8x10 lens) with a mounting station. If the best film height for this lens is variable (like the high-resolution SHR lens), it might actually exist slightly above the scanner bed, not directly on it, and require a mounting station for the very best critical results.

I suspect V700/V750 users who do careful film-height calibration for the SHR lens forget that doing the same tests for the lower resolution lens might be a very good idea, and prove a mounting station produces the best results for both lenses.

[StoneNYC]

I'm not sure why, but the forum has almost no discussion about using the lower resolution lens (i.e., the 8x10 lens) with a mounting station. If the best film height for this lens is variable (like the high-resolution SHR lens), it might actually exist slightly above the scanner bed, not directly on it, and require a mounting station for the very best critical results.

I suspect V700/V750 users who do careful film-height calibration for the SHR lens forget that doing the same tests for the lower resolution lens might be a very good idea, and prove a mounting station produces the best results for both lenses.

I bet most 8x10 shooters don't scan, they print optically ;) hahaha

[Simon Liddiard]

Have you checked this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeoBknfLlck

Thank you!

[Simon Liddiard]

I got my V700 from Amazon! Delivered safely to my door.

BTW if you are using 4x5 rather than 8x10 you will find the standard holder is excellent if you don't need the film edge black borders...

RR

Good to hear RR, thanks! I do like the idea of the film edge border but it's not critical by any means.

[Simon Liddiard]

Simon, you might want to reconsider the drum option. A few months ago I had the same dilemma, then I picked up a Scanmate 4000 on ebay for under £250. The footprint is perhaps twice the size of the epson, but not huge. A friend has a 750 and had spent a lot of time setting it up to get the most of it. The first scan I did on the Scanmate blew it out of the water for detail and dyanmic range, despite being drymounted - the tranny just taped direct to the drum - and me never having used the software before. It's fantastic.

Food for thought... I didn't realise drum scanners could be picked up for that sort of price. I assume they aren't in circulation now, so what are your thoughts about tech support, spare parts etc?

[Simon Liddiard]

Interesting thread (quite long) over on the Rangefinder forum - http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134187

[analoguey]

Whar would be the advice to a newbie on buying a scanmate 4000?
Too much work? Quality wise? Technology wise? (my old pc has conked out, ill probably need to get one to work with this)