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ScottPhotoCo
24-Oct-2013, 11:46
Large format photography, or photography in general is for me a long-term journey. A series of experiments, variations and continual tinkering in hopes of getting what I see in my head to to a final print. I am often inspired technically by what I see in historical works. What really pushes my buttons is smoothness of tones and a dimensionality that looks like you can reach out and touch what you're looking at. From what I've seen I see this most often in images made using LF with film like Kodachrome which is obviously not still in production. With that in mind I have been working to find a way to achieve a similar look and feel that is reproducible and intensional. I have finally achieved something close to what I'm looking for but I need to continue to see if I can do this with different subject matter and different lighting situations.

Here is an image that is closest to what I'm working toward:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2860/10449889034_27a0ff36b8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/themdidit/10449889034/)
2013 Hot Rod Reunion (http://www.flickr.com/photos/themdidit/10449889034/) by ScottPhoto.co (http://www.flickr.com/people/themdidit/), on Flickr

This was made using a Speed Graphic with the Aero Ektar stopped down to f8. This shot is on Kodak Ektar and the black and white conversion done in PS as the colours were entirely too distracting to my eye. Compositionally it is strongly average but I love the tones, smoothness and dimensionality. Scanned on an Epson V750. Toned but no sharpening or other PS trickery has been applied.

The big challenge to me is achieving a 3 dimensional quality in a 2D world. The only thing I can equate this to is the first time I achieved a three-dimensional, spacial sound from my two-channel audio system after upgrading my turntable, tube-preamp and optimizing my speaker placement while listening to "For Duke", one of the most incredibly recorded LP's of all time.

This is another "aha" moment in my journey. :)


Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

Tin Can
24-Oct-2013, 12:35
Very nice, and has a miniature effect that works well.

Oops, I am not supposed to 'speak.'

Well done!

DrTang
24-Oct-2013, 12:44
when I go to shorpy's.. and look around..I notice just how many of the pix used fill flash

and I'm sure heavy retouching on the negs...


I found that interesting

Tin Can
24-Oct-2013, 12:51
Nice source.

Thanks!


when I go to shorpy's.. and look around..I notice just how many of the pix used fill flash

and I'm sure heavy retouching on the negs...


I found that interesting

ScottPhotoCo
24-Oct-2013, 13:56
Very nice, and has a miniature effect that works well.

Oops, I am not supposed to 'speak.'

Well done!

Thanks Randy. The perspective seems to work a bit in its favor. Not sure why you can't "speak", but thanks for the kind words.


when I go to shorpy's.. and look around..I notice just how many of the pix used fill flash

and I'm sure heavy retouching on the negs...


I found that interesting

I do enjoy Shorpy's. But a while back there was a series of chrome images making the virtual rounds that were of factory workers using colour chrome film on 4x5 and they were beautiful. You are correct in that even in these the lighting was deliberate and fill light was used. Lighting is definitely a key. I must've gotten lucky with this image and the highlights working well to create the feel I wanted. Out of all of the images I made with this combination only this one looks as apparent as I was hoping. I'll add another that has a bit of it but not to the same extent.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/10449745713_588eec9461_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/themdidit/10449745713/)
2013 Hot Rod Reunion (http://www.flickr.com/photos/themdidit/10449745713/) by ScottPhoto.co (http://www.flickr.com/people/themdidit/), on Flickr

To me its looking like it has a lot to do with contrast and directional light. More experiments to come. :)

tgtaylor
24-Oct-2013, 15:28
What’s “your vision”?

1. You come across an object that you find appealing and the desire to make a photograph suddenly stirs your emotions. That’s your vision.
2. You settle on the composition – where to stand, the focal length to use, what to include/exclude, etc. That’s your vision.
3. You decide on how to portray it – Color, B&W, soft focus, razor sharp, definition in the shadows, etc. That’s your vision.
4. You decide on how to present it: cold tone paper, warm tone paper, Fiber, RC, toners to use or not to use, etc. That’s your vision.
5. You decide on how big to print it and how to mat and mount it. That’s your vision.

It’s all your vision.

Thomas

tgtaylor
24-Oct-2013, 15:36
1. You come across an object that you find emotionally appealing and the desire to make a photograph of it suddenly stirs within you. That’s your vision.

Thomas

ScottPhotoCo
24-Oct-2013, 15:58
What’s “your vision”?

1. You come across an object that you find appealing and the desire to make a photograph suddenly stirs your emotions. That’s your vision.
2. You settle on the composition – where to stand, the focal length to use, what to include/exclude, etc. That’s your vision.
3. You decide on how to portray it – Color, B&W, soft focus, razor sharp, definition in the shadows, etc. That’s your vision.
4. You decide on how to present it: cold tone paper, warm tone paper, Fiber, RC, toners to use or not to use, etc. That’s your vision.
5. You decide on how big to print it and how to mat and mount it. That’s your vision.

It’s all your vision.

Thomas


1. You come across an object that you find emotionally appealing and the desire to make a photograph of it suddenly stirs within you. That’s your vision.

Thomas

Thomas,

I get what you're saying, but what is the point that you are trying to make? I am asking respectfully as I am indeed curious what your perspective and motivations for your comments are.

My motivation? I learn a lot form the people and posts here, both technically and creatively. As I have little aha moments and things that stir my passion for learning I like to share those moments with others who have been instrumental in my learning and inspiration process as well as those who perhaps are also searching for new ideas and techniques to achieve their own vision. Whenever I get stuck in a place technically or creatively I always start with a search here for answers as there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience available here. I hope that I can, in my own small way, contribute as well.

Perhaps I should have more aptly titled this thread "Achieving MY vision". :)

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

paulr
24-Oct-2013, 16:03
I'm not convinced that all that is "your vision."

None of it distinguishes between vision and habit, or between a personal response and an inherited one.

ScottPhotoCo
24-Oct-2013, 16:51
I'm not convinced that all that is "your vision."

None of it distinguishes between vision and habit, or between a personal response and an inherited one.

Well said, and I agree. There is a big difference between having a vision and getting what you want to see on paper.

I had no idea that this would become a philosophical discussion. Good stuff. :)

Kirk Gittings
24-Oct-2013, 16:55
I'm not convinced that all that is "your vision."

None of it distinguishes between vision and habit, or between a personal response and an inherited one.

Heroique
24-Oct-2013, 17:35
"Your vision" is when someone fails to see your vision like you do. ;^(

jp
24-Oct-2013, 17:46
As someone who enjoys photographing cars and using LF I see past the declaration of "miniature style", and that Tim is starting to feel good about the challenges inherent to the subject.

Cars at events are notoriously difficult to isolate in the manner in which you brain sees it. Car events are happening places and your brain can't and shouldn't take in too much simultaneously. LF and Aero Ektar has handled this better than most car photos. I tend to use details and soft focus rather than whole car photos to prevent showing too much of the show at once.

Lighting is tough. Film can be helpful. A white or metallic finish car with strong shadows and sunlight can be nearly impossible to do well with digital or chrome film. The OP seems to be learning the film choice to get that variable under control while seeing the light and shadows like an artist rather than a documenter of car culture.

Car surfaces are tremendously complex as well, with curves, lines, shadows, bulges, chrome, black, glass, a wild mix of materials. I'd venture to say more difficult to photograph than skin, particularly since cars and studios are usually exclusive combinations. Maintaining a balance of sharpness and softness and using gradual depth of field like people do with LF portraits is working well for Tim here.

tgtaylor
24-Oct-2013, 20:07
Thomas,

I get what you're saying, but what is the point that you are trying to make? I am asking respectfully as I am indeed curious what your perspective and motivations for your comments are.

To paraphrase Louis Armstrong: "Man, if you got to ask, you'll neverknow" I wasn't responding to you in particular but rather to the title of the thread - "Getting there – Slowly achieving your vision" - and truthfully didn't, and still haven't, read thru the various post to it. As far as yourvision...well you apparently don't have one or it's poorly defined. I do have a "vision" which I outlined as best I could. Take it or leave it - it's your choice.

Thomas

tgtaylor
24-Oct-2013, 20:09
"Your vision" is when someone fails to see your vision like you do. ;^(

That's bullshit!

Thomas

tgtaylor
24-Oct-2013, 20:27
I'm not convinced that all that is "your vision."

None of it distinguishes between vision and habit, or between a personal response and an inherited one.

In my opinion that is an asinine observation but as paulr has always presented himself as an expert in art that... well, maybe. What do you think?

Thomas

Kirk Gittings
25-Oct-2013, 10:42
It seems to me that most people here pretty much stopped their photographic art education on ideas from the early 60's (some in the 1900's!) with Weston and Adams. As if time stopped aesthetically in the mid 60's. I was actually an avid student photographer then when it began to broaden. Exciting invigorating times to witness though my work remains rooted in those times. Paul is that rare member who actually seems to keep up with contemporary thinking on theory and practice. I don't because it doesn't mean much with what I do every day and it bores me. I probably should keep up with it for my students sake. But I appreciate what Paul brings to the table-basically he is a voice in the wilderness here. Otherwise it would be virtually all Ansel all the time.

ScottPhotoCo
25-Oct-2013, 10:43
To paraphrase Louis Armstrong: "Man, if you got to ask, you'll neverknow" I wasn't responding to you in particular but rather to the title of the thread - "Getting there – Slowly achieving your vision" - and truthfully didn't, and still haven't, read thru the various post to it. As far as yourvision...well you apparently don't have one or it's poorly defined. I do have a "vision" which I outlined as best I could. Take it or leave it - it's your choice.

Thomas

Thomas,

If indeed you have a clear "vision" congratulations, that is an ongoing process for most of us. In fact, if I ever do feel that I've achieved everything I want to in my images then I'll probably stop making them as it is the learning process and creative inspiration that I really enjoy. The final output is icing on the proverbial cake and a reminder of the progress I've made and what I've learned. Everyone has their own path and motivations. I certainly am not one to judge others passion.

There are so many on-line personalities with a Seagull approach to communication. "Swoop and poop" and then off to the next "event". Personally I LOVE a good conversation, especially with people of opposing views as I love to be challenged, learn and continually ensure that my views and perspectives are valid.

In regard to what you posted, I agree to an extent. That seems to be how you execute your vision. An incredibly important part of the equation. However, to me, my "vision" is a combination of emotions, visual fodder AND execution and is therefor an ongoing complex equation that evolves as I learn more and learn to "see" differently.

Thank you for your participation in this conversation as it has challenged me to look at things from another perspective.


Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

ScottPhotoCo
25-Oct-2013, 10:56
As someone who enjoys photographing cars and using LF I see past the declaration of "miniature style", and that Tim is starting to feel good about the challenges inherent to the subject.

Cars at events are notoriously difficult to isolate in the manner in which you brain sees it. Car events are happening places and your brain can't and shouldn't take in too much simultaneously. LF and Aero Ektar has handled this better than most car photos. I tend to use details and soft focus rather than whole car photos to prevent showing too much of the show at once.

Lighting is tough. Film can be helpful. A white or metallic finish car with strong shadows and sunlight can be nearly impossible to do well with digital or chrome film. The OP seems to be learning the film choice to get that variable under control while seeing the light and shadows like an artist rather than a documenter of car culture.

Car surfaces are tremendously complex as well, with curves, lines, shadows, bulges, chrome, black, glass, a wild mix of materials. I'd venture to say more difficult to photograph than skin, particularly since cars and studios are usually exclusive combinations. Maintaining a balance of sharpness and softness and using gradual depth of field like people do with LF portraits is working well for Tim here.

Thank you for your comments. Car shows are pretty much a photographic disaster in many ways. Especially with a large format camera. I have stood, waiting, for more than 20 minutes with the camera focused and ready for people to not stand directly in front of the lens or light to be just right. Personally, I love vintage cars, trucks and motorcycles so this is a fun study for me. I'm in the process of building my 1951 Ford F1 so learning to see lines, curves and details are relevant in more than one area for me.

All of my images are a huge learning process and one big, ongoing experiment for me as I have so many ways of looking at and "seeing" things. Some technical, some emotional and some completely random as I learn as much from "mistakes" as I do from successes.

This stuff is fun and I will continue learning until I am no longer able to. :)

paulr
25-Oct-2013, 13:51
Paul is that rare member who actually seems to keep up with contemporary thinking on theory and practice.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I only kinda sorta keep up. Let's just say I know of contemporary thinking ...

And I asssume that if my new work looks like something Ansel did, or like something I did 10 years ago, I'm probably coasting more than seeing.

invisibleflash
25-Oct-2013, 15:51
Beautiful!

Heroique
25-Oct-2013, 16:17
Sometimes, not too often, my vision consists of taking into consideration how my viewers might perceive my images, and composing subjects based on what I believe those perceptions, or habits of mind, might be. When composing this way, I'm trying to find the best way to communicate a vision, not only through my own personal prejudices – which is unavoidable – but to a known audience with different prejudices I hope I understand. This effort of imaginative detachment can be quite distracting, even wrecking, but can prove rewarding in the end.

It also raises the "Whose vision?" question – yours, mine, ours, or nobody's?

It's very different, but related to the influences (conscious, or less so) on your work by, say, admired photographers, personal biography, or your latest readings in contemporary critical theory.

tgtaylor
25-Oct-2013, 18:26
It seems to me that most people here pretty much stopped their photographic art education on ideas from the early 60's (some in the 1900's!) with Weston and Adams. As if time stopped aesthetically in the mid 60's.

Copying or mimicking another photographer is not “personal vision.” Personal vision is how you see things and it can be broken down into the several steps that I set out in my earlier post. Photography has a rich history and most serious photographers have delved into its lore - it's fun and entertaining. But that infatuation with photography's past and holding in high esteem some of its more famous practitioners does not equate into ones personal vision. But becoming a student of photography's past can actually expand ones own personal vision. In my case, my personal vision was greatly expanded in recent years by studying and practicing the printing methods of the 19th and early 20th century.

Thomas

blueribbontea
31-Oct-2013, 07:48
I really appreciate the idea that achieving a "vision" is an ongoing process. One thing that jumps out at me from the original photo is the shallow depth of field and it reminds me a lot of contemporary portrait work one can find on Flicker of folks using old brass, often Peztval formula lenses. Selective focus is a good tool, used in the past in the tradition of American landscape photographers following the lead of Peter Henry Emerson, as well as being a staple of portrait studios. This is a direct confrontation to the tradition of the f64 group and those that fell into that mold of achieving DOF from "here to everywhere". Using the Aero Ektar gives this photo a rather textured out of focus area. I don't know if this helps in sorting out the technical characteristics of your developing vision but I like where you are going.

ROL
31-Oct-2013, 09:21
...Otherwise it would be virtually all Ansel all the time.

Point taken, but from my perspective, that is a relatively myopic view of vision here. I see quite the opposite. The trend has been away from A&W over the past 3 decades or so (ding dong, the witch is dead?). If the pendulum is perceived to have swung back, it may because the meat of methods of classical photography and printing, expressed in the more pragmatic forums on a LF forum in general, enforces a certain perception of vision. The contribution from the relatively recent influx of interest in large format photography coming from those who have no training in anything other than digital methods, will likely also include a broader vision.

DrTang
31-Oct-2013, 09:49
Cars at events are notoriously difficult to isolate in the manner in which you brain sees it.


plus they always have that stinking paper in the window

why do they do that?

DrTang
31-Oct-2013, 09:54
when was August Sander?

that's were I stopped


happily

Jim Galli
31-Oct-2013, 10:36
I find all the "art-speak" intimidating. Probably rightly so.

Tim, I like the Chebby picture and where it's going, but I hate the "nervous" bokeh of the Aero Ektar's. All those d-d-d-d-double lines! My apologies to anyone who n-n-naturally s-s-s-s-stutters. Maybe find a lens that doesn't consume quite that much caffeine in the mornings ;~'))

Toyon
31-Oct-2013, 10:55
If you don't have taste, you don't have an intrinsic esthetic sense, you will never take beautiful photographs. They are very rare.

BrianShaw
31-Oct-2013, 10:56
when was August Sander?

that's were I stopped


happily

About 2 months ago

Tin Can
31-Oct-2013, 11:09
They all want want to win the worthless prize or sell the overpriced car, just like us!


plus they always have that stinking paper in the window

why do they do that?

ScottPhotoCo
31-Oct-2013, 11:30
plus they always have that stinking paper in the window

why do they do that?

Completely agree. I need to plan some time with some of my car friends to go out and make some purpose shots of their beautiful cars. No paper included. :)


I find all the "art-speak" intimidating. Probably rightly so.

Tim, I like the Chebby picture and where it's going, but I hate the "nervous" bokeh of the Aero Ektar's. All those d-d-d-d-double lines! My apologies to anyone who n-n-naturally s-s-s-s-stutters. Maybe find a lens that doesn't consume quite that much caffeine in the mornings ;~'))

Thanks Jim!

I am not a photographer by trade but have been an art director for a loooooooong time. This means that I like to direct the viewer to look at my creations in the way that I see them. This involves, for me, using blurs, DOF, light or any other option to guide the eye in a way that I envision. It's just my way for certain subjects as I have a very distinct POV. On others I want to leave things more open to the viewer. Maybe I'm just a control freak. ;)

ScottPhotoCo
31-Oct-2013, 11:31
plus they always have that stinking paper in the window

why do they do that?


They all want want to win the worthless prize or sell the overpriced car, just like us!

Randy,

These are just small papers that show approval to park in "special" areas for the show. Annoying, but necessary for management of the event I imagine.

Tin Can
31-Oct-2013, 11:35
I mostly attend motorcycle events with 'bike' show popularity contests and they dangle paper tags on them, ruins every picture.

Kinda like big name tags on naked people. :(


Randy,

These are just small papers that show approval to park in "special" areas for the show. Annoying, but necessary for management of the event I imagine.

Jim Galli
31-Oct-2013, 11:36
[QUOTE=ScottPhotoCo;

Thanks Jim!

I am not a photographer by trade but have been an art director for a loooooooong time. This means that I like to direct the viewer to look at my creations in the way that I see them. This involves, for me, using blurs, DOF, light or any other option to guide the eye in a way that I envision. It's just my way for certain subjects as I have a very distinct POV. On others I want to leave things more open to the viewer. Maybe I'm just a control freak. ;)[/QUOTE]

Preachin to the choir. I just posted a car picture over at the Verito page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?25518-Verito-Picture-Post/page14). I go for the throat as far as using everything in my kit to make the picture mine. Just don't like Aero Ektar's very much.

Bill_1856
31-Oct-2013, 11:44
I'm sorry, but for me photographing interesting technological objects are ruined by these lenses. "Arty" they ain't!

Andrew O'Neill
31-Oct-2013, 12:03
Scott, the image you posted at the start of this thread is beautiful. I think you are on to something. Thank you for sharing it.

paulr
31-Oct-2013, 12:21
I really appreciate the idea that achieving a "vision" is an ongoing process

Charles Mingus said, "the reason my music is always changing is that I'm always changing."

Journey, not destination, etc. etc...

Tin Can
31-Oct-2013, 12:23
+1


Charles Mingus said, "the reason my music is always changing is that I'm always changing."

Journey, not destination, etc. etc...

jp
31-Oct-2013, 13:44
plus they always have that stinking paper in the window

why do they do that?

When I exhibit my car, I put the stinking paper in the seat instead of the windscreen because I notice how annoying this is.

When photographing other peoples cars, most are happy to temporarily remove the paper or allow you to relocate it for a photo. I don't know if they would for just anybody, but they do for a person with a tripod and LF camera.

David_Senesac
1-Nov-2013, 21:28
My subjects are landscapes and nature. My interest is simply to capture strong aesthetics. Thus "vision" is usually not an appropriate description of what are generally non-intellectual inner processes. I don't care if others have taken similar frames. I look at things in the ways I have learned from experience works and then use my inner sense of beauty to guide me to a frame. In other words when I'm moving left and right, back and forth, up and down, zooming in and out, emersing my focus on patterns, when my visual system senses beauty and positively structured aesthetics, I trust that and then refine a frame. In other words it comes from within, something I have developed over several decades of being an enthusiast.

tgtaylor
8-Nov-2013, 10:06
My subjects are landscapes and nature. My interest is simply to capture strong aesthetics. Thus "vision" is usually not an appropriate description of what are generally non-intellectual inner processes. I don't care if others have taken similar frames. I look at things in the ways I have learned from experience works and then use my inner sense of beauty to guide me to a frame. In other words when I'm moving left and right, back and forth, up and down, zooming in and out, emersing my focus on patterns, when my visual system senses beauty and positively structured aesthetics, I trust that and then refine a frame. In other words it comes from within, something I have developed over several decades of being an enthusiast.

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

Thomas

jcoldslabs
8-Nov-2013, 13:48
...non-intellectual inner processes.

This is the crux of the issue for me. Trying to explain an intuitive way of seeing in words is difficult. Whatever "vision" I have is expressed collectively in the photos I have taken.

Jonathan

h2oman
10-Nov-2013, 16:47
If indeed you have a clear "vision" congratulations, that is an ongoing process for most of us. In fact, if I ever do feel that I've achieved everything I want to in my images then I'll probably stop making them as it is the learning process and creative inspiration that I really enjoy.

To me there is a difference between finding one's vision and realizing their full potential. I would contend that one can find their vision and still have plenty of room for growth within that vision. And once that vision is found, it will most likely mutate over time, but will likely contain a thread that shows some sort of consistency. Just my opinion, of course.

I feel like I've managed to stumble upon my personal vision over the past few months, and it is a good feeling. Rather than feeling like there is nothing left to do, I now feel like I have direction ans purpose that I was lacking before.