Pyro and contrast

[John C Murphy]

I like a lot of contrast in my portraits, but I find that the so-called high contrast developers (e.g., HC-110) produce muddy skin tones in my portraits. I recently tried PMK (pyro) developer on HP5 and FP4 film and I liked the results. I found it easy to boost the contrast on these films by extending the development time without any noticable depreciation in image quality. What is particularly noticable is that the highlights don't blow out like they usually do when I up the development time. My question is: do the other forms of pyro (ABC, Pyrocat HD) offer any advantage in the way of contrast or convenience?

[David A. Goldfarb]

ABC can give you even more contrast at the expense of grain, if that's an issue. For contact prints I prefer ABC.

[steve simmons]

One of the hings I like abou the PMK formula is that it gives very bright high values but with good tonal separaton. I compared PMK and HD with Tri-X and FP4+and liked PMK better with bothfilms.I would use it for enlarging and contact prnting.

steve simmons viewcamera magazine

[Francesco]

I have developed Efke PL100 using Pyrocat HD in scenes where the SBR = 14 (N-7 in Zone speak) and the tonal (highlight and shadow)l separation is flawless. These negatives were destined for contact printing on AZO paper and they print straight.

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi John. When I moved up to 8x10 I wanted to try a pyro developer, and the consensus was that ABC was the best for contact printing. Well, I wasn't disappointed, and I made some of my best negatives/prints with that developer., but there were a few problems. I didn't want to give up the beautiful gradation of the ABC with my rollfilm, but I didn't want to pay for it with obtrusive grain either, and I never managed to get through an entire kit of ABC without one of the three components going bad before I used it all, and I was always afraid I was going to ruin a negative with dying/dead developer. I tried several developers, and liked most of them, but none measured up to ABC for my big negs until I tried Patrick Gainer's P-TEA developer. It is my new favorite developer for LF negs and fine grained roll film. I've developed 35mm HP5+ in it, and the gradation was just as beautiful, but the grain was Rodinal-esque (not necessarily a bad thing, just not my thing), and I like other developers better for small negatives. It is a simple, single solution, highly concentrated developer that is diluted 1:50 (there is some speculation that it can be diluted 1:200, but I've only gone as far as 1:100) for one shot use. It is incredibly economical, and lasts forever on the shelf. I shoot mostly available light portraits, and the skin tones I'm getting regularly with this developer have a glow I've only occasionally managed with ABC pyro. The highlight separation is amazing, as is the acutance, but for me, it's the skin tones that tell the tale. There aren't many of us LF portrait guys around, and I think our needs are a little different from the landscape guys'. Give it a try, you'll be glad you did.

[Tim Curry]

Jay pretty much sums up my relationship with ABC pyro. It is wonderful stuff, but extremely fickle to use in some respects. PMK does tend to have more "murky" shadows, but you won't see it unless you compare it to ABC in the same shot. It certainly wins with roll films due to grain masking. Both have the ability to work with highlight values to retain detail in very bright areas, as I suspect that most pyro based developers do. This is perhaps the single most important advantage I see with pyro based developers, expanded development with retention of tonal gradation in a predictable and nearly linear manner.

The Pyrocat-HD and P-TEA both sound interesting as alternatives to PMK and ABC, but money is tight this year so I'm working through existing stock I have on hand.

[steve simmons]

PMK does tend to have more "murky" shadows, but you won't see it unless you compare it to ABC in the same shot>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

PMK gives much higher film seed than the ABC. If your PMK shadows are 'murky' then give a little more speed You will still have a higher working EI than ABC.

steve simmons

[steve simmons]

PMK does tend to have more "murky" shadows, but you won't see it unless you compare it to ABC in the same shot>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

PMK gives much higher film speed than the ABC. If your PMK shadows are 'murky' then give a little more speed You will still have a higher working EI than ABC.

steve simmons

[steve simmons]

I apologize for the double post.

steve

[John C Murphy]

Thank you for the responses thus far. So ABC gives better contrast but is a real headache to use? Convenience is one of the really attractive things about PMK. Does this TEA stuff give good contrast? Is it easier to use?

[Michael Kadillak]

I would recommend giving Pyrocat HD a try and draw your own conclusions.Than and only then will you be able to ascertain to your eye what works best for you. I particularly like Pyrocat HD because it is economical to use, lasts a long time and allows me to give the alternative processes a go with my negatives at some point in the future.

Cheers!

[John C Murphy]

Why not? I'll give the Pyrocat HD a try. I'll be in NYC later today, so I'll pick some up. ABC is also pretty easy to come by, so maybe I'll try that as well. But where to I get the P-TEA stuff?

[Gem Singer]

John, the question now becomes: where can I pick up some Pyrocat-HD developer in NYC? The answer: probably nowhere in NYC. You may be able to special order HD from B&H, since it is made and distributed by Photographer's Formulary, in Montana, and B&H doesn't keep it in stock.

You will need to make Patric Gainer's P-TEA developer from scratch, yourself. It's not available off the shelf. See: www.unblinkingeye.com.

Since you already have PMK, and like it, you should keep working with it until you master it, before switching to something else.

[John C Murphy]

Eugene, I think I saw Pyrocat on the shelf at either B&H or Adorama the other day when I was there.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't find ABC a pain to use and haven't had problems with the solutions going bad in storage. It's just grainier than PMK. If you don't make huge prints and are using a diffusion head, you might not find the grain from ABC unacceptable.

B&H has been carrying more bulk chemicals and Formulary stuff lately. It takes them a while to see through all crowds lining up at the digital counter, but they seem to be figuring out that there is demand for these things.

[Gem Singer]

John, you may have seen Pyrocat-HD on the shelf at B&H. However, they list it as "special order" on their website. I doubt that Adorama even carries it.

I suggest that you invest in a copy of Gordon Hutchings "Book of Pyro", when you are in NYC, instead of a Pyrocat-HD kit. The book is (approx.) the same price. It contains much valuable information, and it will answer many of your questions.

[John C Murphy]

Eugene, I have read the pyro book, but it deals chiefly with PMK, and its advantages over ABC pyro. You're right about it containing a lot of valuable information. This may sound funny, but one of the most useful things for me was when it gives you permission to use PMK at higher temperatures, thereby eliminating the need for a water jacket. I never would have thought to try that on my own (not after reading what Ansel Adams' The Negative says about always using a water jacket). In this way, pyro has made my life a bit easier.

[Gem Singer]

John, you still haven't stated exactly why you want to change developers. Is there some reason?

[John C Murphy]

Eugene, Discontentment. That's why I want to change developers. I hate being in the darkroom so I'm constantly trying to find a way to consistently obtain a "perfect" negative, that is, one that minimizes my time spent printing. ID-11 has produced some great looking negatives with HP5 for me, but it is not reproducible enough. It's activity seems to vary with temperature and age of developer. Rodinal is convenient, and it produces a nice look, but the contrast is too low. The fast acting developers like HC-110, T-Max, DD-X, and X-tol don't produce nice enough skin tones. Perceptol produces a great look with FP4, but it is inconvenient to use. (It only comes in a 1 liter size, and I go through it so quickly that I'm constantly needing to mix up new batches.) The PMK is convenient, and the look is almost perfect (please don't ask me to define what I mean by that), but I want to see if I can make it a little better. That's why I'm asking about other forms of pyro.

[David A. Goldfarb]

If you like Perceptol, you might consider mixing up your own D-23, which is similar and isn't hard to make in any size batches you like. It's just metol, sodium sulfite, and water.

[Michael Kadillak]

There is a very well written and complete article written by Sandy King at unblinkingeye.com on Pyrocat HD. Information is power. Results speak for themselves. Stay the course and get the results you want as they seem perfectly reasonable to me.

[John C Murphy]

Michael, the Sandy King article was what first got me thinking of Pyrocat. David, thanks for the tip on D-23. I knew metol is the main ingredient in Perceptol, but I didn't realize it was still available from Kodak. I will give it a try. Thanks.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't know whether you can conveniently get metol from Kodak, but you can get it from www.artcraftchemicals.com or Photographer's Formulary (Artcraft is often a little cheaper, and they ship quickly), and you can probably also find it on the shelf at B&H.

B&H often has stuff in stock that isn't on the website. Sometimes it's worth a call to have someone actually go down to the stockroom or check the shelf.

[David Karp]

John,

Since this thread is drifting toward a broader inquiry than a pyro-based developer to substitute for PMK, here is something in that vein. Since you are looking for consistency and repeatability, try the late Barry Thornton's Metol based 2 bath developer. It uses four ingredients: Metol, Sodium Sulfite, Sodium Metaborate, and water. You can adjust the amount of Sodium Metaborate in the second bath to obtain the desired contrast. Barry Thornton wrote about it in his book "The Edge of Darkness" which is highly recommended, and also on his website: http://www.barry-thornton.co.uk/2bath.htm. (Read and copy the article fast, because the website may not be around much longer.)

Using Metol as the only developing agent is good for acutance. The amount of sulfite in his formula is lower than in D23, and sodium metaborate creates higher acutance than than the borax used in other divided developers. Your highlights don't blow out as readily due to the inherent compensating nature of a 2 bath. (If you are not familiar with 2 baths, read Thornton's article on this point.) You develop sheet films in each bath for 5 minutes with no wash in between. Temperature does not matter much, and you can develop different types of film in the same session!

Another option is Diafine, which they should have on the shelf at B&H. My only advice is to do your own film speed tests. I find that my HP5+ speed is 200 and FP4+ IE is 64-80 (not the higher speeds advertised). I have not tried the mix it yourself formula in the Darkroom Cookbook for Diafine. It uses Borax as the accelerator. The MSDS sheet for commercial Diafine says it uses Sodium Carbonate.

This suggestion may raise some questions by others, but I find that Thornton's formula gives excellent results, and you can do + or - development by adjusting the amount of accelerator in the B bath. My Dad started me in film development by using Diafine many years ago. I switched back to it from XTol when I started in large format to simplify things while learning new skills. Then I tried the Thornton formula and have not looked back.

Hope this helps.

[David Karp]

John,

Sorry, I should have mentioned that Barry Thornton changed the formula for his metol 2 bath developer after he wrote the article on his website. He increased the metol from 6.25g per liter in Bath A to 6.5g per liter. The higher amount is in "The Edge of Darkness" and he confirmed that this was his preferred formulation in e-mail correspondence before his death.