Getting into Large Format

[nevintagefilms]

Hello,

I am currently a 35mm and medium format guy. I'm looking to get into 4x5, primarily for portraits and landscapes.

I've been looking at Cambo and/or Calumet field cameras.

Can anyone give me a general idea on the value of these cameras?

Also, can you give me advice on what lens to obtain and how one changes these lenses. I don't yet have on in my possession, so I haven't tried taking one apart just yet. My primary goal is the sharpest lens possible. Bokeh is my second biggest concern. Contrast is next. I'd be looking wider (90-110mm).

Getting excited to enter the world of large format!

Dave

[Len Middleton]

Dave,

There is a lot of information on the LF Home Page that you might find useful.

A recent thread on the cost on getting into LF might also prove of interest: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?107386-What-s-going-to-cost

Might want to consider what you really want to know before you ask the questions. A better question might have been whether the Cambo / Calumet cameras suitable for your intended end use, rather than what they cost, as cost would not be relevant if they were not.

Lens are typically mounted on lensboards suited to the camera they are to be mounted on, although there are some types of lensboards that are sort of like standard types (e.g. Linhof Technika, Sinar / Horseman, 6x6, etc.).

Read and see what you can get from the information provided and come back with some more questions.

It is a great community and hope you decide to have yourself committed to the asylum....

Len

[nevintagefilms]

Thanks Len!

I think the Cambo / Calumet line are exactly what I am looking for. Thanks for the link, it was a very helpful read.

I think right now, my biggest question is what are some of the best very sharp lenses, how much should they be, and where can I get them (ebay,etc).

The reason I am into this is, for reasons I can't truly explain, I am obsessed with film resolution. (Maybe because of how poor most digital cameras fair against film in resolution). So, I really want a sharp lens with very good resolving power to still make use of the 100-200 LPmm that a film service can provide. I don't just want a large slide or negative with very fine grain. I want to make full use of the film's resolving power with a high MMF lens.

What do you think about that?

[Alan Gales]

Dave, are you sure you are not looking at metal monorails? I'm not aware of a Cambo field camera. Calumet bought out Zone Vi and made wooden field cameras at one time.

Any late model Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor, Fujinon or Caltar lens is going to be plenty sharp on a 4x5 camera. Yes, there are some ultra sharp lenses out there but you better have deep pockets.

Welcome to the forum!

Alan

[smithdoor]

Try looking at Graflex (Crown Graflex or Speed Graflex)
Over all this camera ever thing you need. The cost is $250 for good use one to $1,500 for like new

Dave

[nevintagefilms]

Try looking at Graflex (Crown Graflex or Speed Graflex)
Over all this camera ever thing you need. The cost is $250 for good use one to $1,500 for like new

Dave

I have looked at the Graflex. Are the lenses on these changeable? Are they the same as all the rest of the 4x5 cameras like the Calumet, etc?

[nevintagefilms]

Sorry, yes. I am talking about the monorails.

I don't have deep pockets, so I guess it doesn't matter. But, can you tell me some of the specific models that are ultra sharp?


Dave, are you sure you are not looking at metal monorails? I'm not aware of a Cambo field camera. Calumet bought out Zone Vi and made wooden field cameras at one time.

Any late model Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor, Fujinon or Caltar lens is going to be plenty sharp on a 4x5 camera. Yes, there are some ultra sharp lenses out there but you better have deep pockets.

Welcome to the forum!

Alan

[photobymike]

how about an Omega mono rail for 80 bucks ...that is the going cost of these old mono rail cameras. the trick is to find one with good bellows. I have several as i use them as field cameras. I have never paid over a hundred dollars for one Toyo Omega or Cambo.....and i sometime find them with lenses

[Alan Gales]

Sorry, yes. I am talking about the monorails.

I don't have deep pockets, so I guess it doesn't matter. But, can you tell me some of the specific models that are ultra sharp?

You can pick up a real nice Cambo/Calumet monorail for $200.00 or less. I have seen some of the old models sell for as cheap as $50.00. These are finished Ebay auction prices.

Schneider Super Symmar XL 110mm f/5.6, Nikkor SW 90m f/4.5, Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-S 150mm f/5.6, Nikkor M 300mm f/9 among others. Google Kerry Thalmann's future classics for a lot of great information on lenses.

[smithdoor]

Yes they use the same lenses as the other large format cameras. I use a 135 mm and a 215 mm lenses. Works great has a range finder build for the 135 mm. Most shoots I only need the range finder not the ground glass but I have it when I need too.
The best news you get them from on ebay or use camera shops ever day of the week with braking the bank.

Dave


I have looked at the Graflex. Are the lenses on these changeable? Are they the same as all the rest of the 4x5 cameras like the Calumet, etc?

[AtlantaTerry]

I'm looking to get into 4x5, primarily for portraits and landscapes.

I don't yet have a lens in my possession, so I haven't tried taking one apart just yet. My primary goal is the sharpest lens possible. Bokeh is my second biggest concern. Contrast is next. I'd be looking wider (90-110mm).


Dave,

I have a couple questions.

Why would you be looking for a 90mm lens for portraits? If you don't yet know, a 90mm lens is wide angle in 4x5 work. For portraits you would normally be looking for something over 200mm or possibly 300mm.

Why ask about taking a lens apart? What do you plan to do when you do? The only time I have done anything close is when mounting lenses onto lens boards. To do that, normally all you have to do is unscrew the rear lens group, insert the front group + shutter into the hole in the board then screw on the rear group. Tools that are useful are one of those square metal lens wrenches and a lens spanner wrench - each is about $15 to $20 on eBay.

Examples:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3S-KRPC-Lens-Wrench-for-Copal-Compur-Prontor-shutters-/200607559272?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb5246e68

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Arc-Lens-Spanner-Wrench-For-Camera-Lens-Repair-Open-25-110mm-/221258880408?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item33840e9598

[Brassai]

A monorail is cheap and solid, but a poor choice if you will be traveling and using the camera in the field. It's bulky to pack, slow to set up, and kind of a pain in the butt. If you will mostly be using the camera at one location, they will work for you. For lenses, look at a 90--120mm and a 210mm.

[photobymike]

I have looked at the Graflex. Are the lenses on these changeable? Are they the same as all the rest of the 4x5 cameras like the Calumet, etc?

I use Graflex for weddings and portraits.... my advice is dont even think about Graflex. Most that you buy are Frankensteins built from spare parts. The lens was matched at the factory with a distance scale and cam for the split rangefinder. Yes there lens are interchangeable but they sell for an arm and a leg. You never see a cam and distance scales with the lens. The positive is they have robust bellows that seem to last forever. i have never seen bad bellows on a Graflex. You can do much better buying a rail camera on Ebay. Catch an auction and they go for cheap...like i said i never pay more than 100 dollars for a good one. There is a Toyo forsale here for 200 but i think he is at the point where he will listen to offers. Then find a Ilex shutter with a Paragon anastigmat 6 1/2 7 1/2 or 8 1/2 lens you will be amazed at the pictures you can take. i do not pay more that 50 to 80 dollars for this type of lens.....

The quote that i have always admired was from WeeGee "I didn't wait 'til somebody gave me a job or something, I went and created a job for myself—freelance photographer"

[nevintagefilms]

Thanks for that. In 35mm, 90mm is quite telephoto. I didn't realize it would be that wide. I knew the there was a difference, but I didn't realize 200 or even 300mm would be a portrait lens!

I didn't mean actually taking the lens itself apart. I was actually referring to taking the lens mount board off and removing the lens from the board. I didn't mean taking apart the lens itself. I've never changed one of these lenses, so I am curious to explore this. I actually found some great footage on youtube about using and working with a Garflex. Very interesting info.

Thanks for the links. Very helpful.



Dave,

I have a couple questions.

Why would you be looking for a 90mm lens for portraits? If you don't yet know, a 90mm lens is wide angle in 4x5 work. For portraits you would normally be looking for something over 200mm or possibly 300mm.

Why ask about taking a lens apart? What do you plan to do when you do? The only time I have done anything close is when mounting lenses onto lens boards. To do that, normally all you have to do is unscrew the rear lens group, insert the front group + shutter into the hole in the board then screw on the rear group. Tools that are useful are one of those square metal lens wrenches and a lens spanner wrench - each is about $15 to $20 on eBay.

Examples:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3S-KRPC-Lens-Wrench-for-Copal-Compur-Prontor-shutters-/200607559272?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb5246e68

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Arc-Lens-Spanner-Wrench-For-Camera-Lens-Repair-Open-25-110mm-/221258880408?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item33840e9598

[nevintagefilms]

Thanks everyone for your input. Please keep it coming.

My own research and all your comments have me torn between a Garflex and a monorail such as the Cambo or Calumet.

Although I will certainly keep my eye out for a fully accessorized camera, I am not afraid (and almost prefer) to buy a lenses camera and then purchase a lens separately. By the looks of it, the Schneider 200mm+ lenses seem to be a good fit and of high quality.

Dave

[miesnert]

Let me google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=getting+started+in+4x5+camera

[photobymike]

Graflex.org has great info on these classic cameras.....Look for a Crown that has not been fiddled with and you will love it. Or if you get a Crown with a Kalart rangefinder, they are easy to adjust... well mmm they are adjustable

[Alan Gales]

Thanks for that. In 35mm, 90mm is quite telephoto. I didn't realize it would be that wide. I knew the there was a difference, but I didn't realize 200 or even 300mm would be a portrait lens!

The usual rule is to take the focal length you like in 35mm photography and multiply it by three to get what you want in 4x5. For example a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera multiplied by 3 will give you a 150mm lens on a 4x5 camera. The problem with this rule is that a 4x5 negative is more square than a 35mm negative. I do the multiply by 3 rule and then subtract 5mm so the 150mm lens is more like a 45mm on a 35mm camera. It doesn't seem like much at the normal focal length but with wide angles it does. A 90mm lens feels closer to a 25mm lens then a 30mm to me.

Of course some people agree with me and some don't.

For some reason I lean towards more "normal focal length" lenses when shooting large format than I did with a 35mm camera so don't expect to shoot the equivalent focal length in 4x5 as to what you shot with a 35mm camera. You may change.

Picking lenses is sometimes trial and error. The good thing is if you buy at a fair price used and make a mistake you can sell for close to what you paid and then get what you want.

[nevintagefilms]

The usual rule is to take the focal length you like in 35mm photography and multiply it by three to get what you want in 4x5. For example a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera multiplied by 3 will give you a 150mm lens on a 4x5 camera. The problem with this rule is that a 4x5 negative is more square than a 35mm negative. I do the multiply by 3 rule and then subtract 5mm so the 150mm lens is more like a 45mm on a 35mm camera. It doesn't seem like much at the normal focal length but with wide angles it does. A 90mm lens feels closer to a 25mm lens then a 30mm to me.

Of course some people agree with me and some don't.

For some reason I lean towards more "normal focal length" lenses when shooting large format than I did with a 35mm camera so don't expect to shoot the equivalent focal length in 4x5 as to what you shot with a 35mm camera. You may change.

Picking lenses is sometimes trial and error. The good thing is if you buy at a fair price used and make a mistake you can sell for close to what you paid and then get what you want.


Then I wasn't that far off as my favorite portrait lens in 35mm is a 28mm. I also have a 50mm I like, so I guess I'd be looking at 150mm.

[Len Middleton]

Picking lenses is sometimes trial and error. The good thing is if you buy at a fair price used and make a mistake you can sell for close to what you paid and then get what you want.

Dave,

Alan's excellent advice applies to used LF cameras as well.

It is of course best to do your homework and get what you need (not necessarily the same as want...), but do not be afraid to experiment.

I look it as relatively low rent to try the equipment or a small reward for being adventuresome...

Len

[photonsoup]

My own research and all your comments have me torn between a Garflex and a monorail such as the Cambo or Calumet.

Don't be torn, buy a couple of each! I live 25 miles from a small city (~80,000). One day I was looking at craigslist a guy had a 4x5 camera listed for $250.00. I called and went to look at it, it was the first large format camera I had ever seen, was a Cambo Legend like new. With a 90mm lens, a 210mm lens, 10 film holders, a polaroid back, a med format film back, bag bellows, compendium (still have no idea how that thing is used), lens wraps, an extra ground glass, and a bunch of other stuff in a homemade wooden case. Most of it was still in the original boxes. Seemed like a fun thing to play with so I bought it. Down the rabbit hole we go!

Next I found a 4x5 enlarger on craiglist while I was looking at it the guy asked if I want to buy his camera. He digs out a Crown Graffic with a 135mm xenar lens says he wants $25.00 for it. By now I have somewhat of an idea what stuff is worth, so I told him it was worth more than that. After a few days I picked it up for $125 with 5 film holders, and an extra shutter with a rear element of unknown length (it actually will focus, but I've yet to try it with film).

Next craiglist is a tripod for $20.00 with the same Bogen head as my tripod with 3 extra quick release plates, I just want the plates but while I'm there the guy sells me a Crown that has been spray painted a weird pinkish maroon color for $15.00. No lens or lens board but I've got that covered. Other than the ugly paint job it's a great camera. And he just gives me some other assorted gear.

Three more LF cameras later and the collection just seems to be developing a life of its own! Yes the budget is blown. But photography is fun again!

Just get something, you'll get something else later, enjoy the ride.

Bryan

[photobymike]

Did ever see a movie about a guy on craigslist that murdered people ...it was on Lifetime channel so it all must be true

[Brassai]

At this point you seem fixiated on modern "sharp" lenses. When I first started I was too. However, as I've become more experienced, I've deviated from that a bit. I now use my Nikon D7100 when I'm after a very sharp, high contrast look. Sometimes that's the look I'm after. After a few years that sharp high contrast "sanitary" digital look began to bore me. I wanted a different look to my photos, something that set them apart. I began diving into historical lenses, especially the uncoated ones from well before WW2. I still have a set of three modern lenses (multicoated, Copal shutters, yada yada,) but the lenses that really excite me about using 4x5 were those made in the 1840s and a small collection of lenses made roughly 1900 to 1928. These lenses give a very soft, low contrast look that is distinctive. And that's the beauty of 4x5. I can put lenses from any era on my Chamonix 045n (a nearly perfect camera) and use them perfectly well. With a simple lens change I can use a Voigtlander portrait lens made in the 1840s, a wide angle lens made during WW1, or a gorgeous Heliar made during the flamboyant 1920s. Each lens and each era has its own unique look. You are coming out of your recent past with "blinders" on, from the constraints of the relatively modern camera systems you are used to. My Chamonix is basically a wooden box that I can stick the film of my choice in one end, and my choice of just about any lens ever made on the other end. Ultimately this is liberating!

[smithdoor]

That is how came by my enlarger was craiglist and price was free
My first went by by one day today I have a great enlarge but on the other that is just luck may find one for $50 to $500 in the paper or craiglist
Also get a good Camera Body a good lens can come later as funding comes in hand


Dave


Don't be torn, buy a couple of each! I live 25 miles from a small city (~80,000). One day I was looking at craigslist a guy had a 4x5 camera listed for $250.00. I called and went to look at it, it was the first large format camera I had ever seen, was a Cambo Legend like new. With a 90mm lens, a 210mm lens, 10 film holders, a polaroid back, a med format film back, bag bellows, compendium (still have no idea how that thing is used), lens wraps, an extra ground glass, and a bunch of other stuff in a homemade wooden case. Most of it was still in the original boxes. Seemed like a fun thing to play with so I bought it. Down the rabbit hole we go!

Next I found a 4x5 enlarger on craiglist while I was looking at it the guy asked if I want to buy his camera. He digs out a Crown Graffic with a 135mm xenar lens says he wants $25.00 for it. By now I have somewhat of an idea what stuff is worth, so I told him it was worth more than that. After a few days I picked it up for $125 with 5 film holders, and an extra shutter with a rear element of unknown length (it actually will focus, but I've yet to try it with film).

Next craiglist is a tripod for $20.00 with the same Bogen head as my tripod with 3 extra quick release plates, I just want the plates but while I'm there the guy sells me a Crown that has been spray painted a weird pinkish maroon color for $15.00. No lens or lens board but I've got that covered. Other than the ugly paint job it's a great camera. And he just gives me some other assorted gear.

Three more LF cameras later and the collection just seems to be developing a life of its own! Yes the budget is blown. But photography is fun again!

Just get something, you'll get something else later, enjoy the ride.

Bryan

[Terry Christian]

LF lenses with their shutters just go into an appropriately sized hole in a lens board and are secured on the back with a flange. There are no lens mounts as in 35mm or medium format, so basically a lens is a lens is a lens. Because of the negative size is so huge comparatively, LF lenses don't have to do as much "work" to do in resolving the scene, so any modern multicoated lens will give you a nicely contrasted result. Even my old uncoated Wollensak from 1912 has given such high resolution that I can read the print on a banner shot across a field.

[John Kasaian]

IMHO what's important is that whatever you get is in good working order.
Graphic Views and Calumet 400s are still inexpensive if you're looking for monorails.
210mm lenses from the big three in good shutters look like great deals from Keh.
Used Tilt-all tripods are capable.
Look around for 4x5 enlargers--you might get one for free for hauling it away.
Life is good. Enjoy!

[Jim Jones]

The design of some of the lenses in production today is over a hundred years old. Then and now they could form sharp images. Newer designs and production have advantages in speed and flare reduction, often more valuable than image sharpness.

[Karl A]

I'm pretty sure any modern lens from Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji will give you more resolution than you are used to from a small camera, period. But what do you do with the large negative once you have recorded the image? All the information is there, but your method of scanning or enlarging (and equipment used) will be crucial to get it all out of the negative...just my 2 cents

[welly]

I've got a Cambo monorail - not sure of the model name but it's an incredibly basic monorail. It was cheap and it's not my main camera but the thing has loads of movements and weighs nothing. It's the lightest 4x5 I've owned out of a Sinar F2, a Wisner field camera and my current and main camera, a Toyo 45AX.

For what you've described, it's probably going to be exactly what you want. And then you might get yourself a nice 4x5 later on!

[analoguey]

LF lenses with their shutters just go into an appropriately sized hole in a lens board and are secured on the back with a flange. There are no lens mounts as in 35mm or medium format, so basically a lens is a lens is a lens. Because of the negative size is so huge comparatively, LF lenses don't have to do as much "work" to do in resolving the scene, so any modern multicoated lens will give you a nicely contrasted result. Even my old uncoated Wollensak from 1912 has given such high resolution that I can read the print on a banner shot across a field.

If I were to use an enlarger lens then, would I get sufficient info out on a 6x7 back? Or on the cropped digital sensor (I plan to use both)

What would be a recommended lens/lens set then? For portraits and still?