What is the best way to write a file number on my negatives?

[AtlantaTerry]

I would like to mark my 4x5 negatives with a file number in the blank area created by the sheet film holder end flap. So obviously there is not a lot of space to work with.

I have been working with an Ultra Fine Point Sharpie. It kinda sorta works but the letters and numbers are not solid black so the information likely will not show very well on contact sheets or scans. Also, I think if I tried to use film cleaner the file numbers would come off.

I believe I read somewhere here or on the Intertubes (so it must be true) where one photographer uses a technical pen such as a Rapidograph filled with India ink.

What do other LF photographers here use to permanently mark their negatives?

Would India ink come off if film cleaner was used?

I would appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks,
Terry

[Leigh]

i proof onto 8x10 and put the frame IDs on the proofs. You can also write it on individual storage sleeves.
If you store four 4x5 sheets in a single storage sheet you can proof that then mark the sleeve.

I suppose you could mark the individual sheets if you wanted to. I've never needed to.

The finest pens you'll find are drafting pens like Rapidograph, if you can find any now. They used to be quite common.
Amazon lists a large selection of products under that tradename.

Modern drafting ink is designed to be relatively permanent on drafting media, commonly Mylar, but not indelible.

- Leigh

[ROL]

It's not clear to me whether your issue is marking negatives, or their holders. Be that as it may, I have occasionally, for other reasons, marked negatives successfully within the small rebate area with extra fine point sharpies. But for normal archival organization purposes, I use fine point sharpies to mark the sheet holder only, the presumption being that the negative and holder are never separated except during printing. The information normally transfers well enough using PrintFile type holders during contacting, though this is only true for roll films for me, as I don't contact sheet film at all, either with or without holder (i.e., I proof all prospective sheet film, the proof being kept in separate cross referenced files).

[MMELVIS]

Use a Faber-Castell PITT artist pen in black

Good discussion here
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-96387.html

[Bruce Barlow]

Staedtler drafting pen, 0.1mm. Permanent, and fine enough to be readable on the edge of a 4x5 negative. Staples and places like that have them. Not cheap, but it will outlast me.

[polyglot]

Rapidograph with India Ink is the canonical archival solution. I use a 0.3mm (which is good for 3mm lettering on a frame edge); the Koh-I-Noor ones are readily available for ~$25, as is the ink.

Sharpies fade, though admittedly I do often use them to mark negative sleeves. India Ink is fadeproof (it's carbon powder in a shellac/varnish - like Carbon printing but even more stubborn) and largely waterproof but can be removed with some petrochemical solvents if necessary.

[AtlantaTerry]

Thank you, polyglot, from what you wrote here, it may be you that gave me the idea in the first place.

To be clear, I want to permanently mark the negatives themselves. This is in case similars get mixed up by the scanning folks or for any other reason. Yes, I also mark the file number on the 4-up archival Print File pages where I store the negatives.

[AtlantaTerry]

Use a Faber-Castell PITT artist pen in black

Good discussion here
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-96387.html

Thank you for the link. I learned a lot.

Terry

PS
What is all that discussion of HABS about? Evidently someone is collecting photos of old buildings. Is that a paying job?

[Steve Goldstein]

Like many others here, I use a Rapidograph and India ink and number on the base (shiny) side. Mine has a 000 point, which is also perfect for one of my other hobbies. I just purchased a new point from Dick Blick as my old one finally resisted cleaning after several years of use.

Yes, they are a bit of work to maintain, but cleaning with every filling, as the instructions advise, helps. I've considered storing mine in a plastic container with a bit of damp tissue to see if that reduces the drying-out problem, especially in winter, but have never actually tried it.

I also found, quite by accident, that TF-5 fixer removes India ink.

[Jim Jones]

Notching a binary coded file number in the edge of a negative is unobtrusive and permanent. The same system works for identifying film holders.

[polyglot]

The whole India Ink think is mandated by a few historical archives too (eg HABS, the Historical American Building Survey) - it's the gold standard for archival marking. The ink will likely outlast the emulsion on the film, let alone chemical destruction of the silver image.

While I'm not an American nor probably ever good enough to shoot for HABS, as far as I'm concerned, following their recommendations and standards is probably a good approach.

[Robert Hall]

Once upon a time I saw a small machine that one would run their unexposed film through by the edge and it would print numbers on their film. This was on a rebate edge. It looked pretty cool but kind of expensive for me at the time. I'll be danged if I can remember where I saw it.

[Drew Wiley]

India ink instantly comes off with any kind of real film cleaner. Better to keep your negs in labeled archival sleeves than to write on the neg itself.

[AtlantaTerry]

Last night I went to one of the Office Depot stores and asked for any of the suggested technical pens. No luck. But the salesman suggested I try a nearby Michael's (craft store). Sure enough, they had a selection of Faber-Castell PITT artist pens loaded with black India ink. I selected a two-pack of 0.1mm tipped pens. About US $5. Plus I received a coupon for 40% off my next purchase.

[gleaf]

Time was we used India Ink, ink will, and a traditional replaceable nib pen. Find an old Navy Photographers Mate 2 & 3 manual and it will have the numbering system used.

[frotog]

http://www.misterart.com/drawing-illustration/markers/permanent-markers/pilot-extra-fine-point-permanent-marker.html
These used to be called "Pilot photo marker pen". Also available at minilabsupply.com. Xylene free. Best I've used for writing in the gutter though I never got as retrogrouchy as india ink in a quill or nib pen.

[polyglot]

retrogrouchy

Oooooh, lovely term! I think you've got APUG right there.

I'mma steal it ;)

[ROL]

Funny, I think of APUG more as retrohypocritical.

[Drew Wiley]

Those traditional "crow quill" pen tips had the habit of snapping and splattering the ink from time to time. But you could write very small with them. There seem to
be quite a few myths out there. India ink is basically just a dispersion of carbon black in shellac, which won't fade, but the binder itself crosslinks and goes brittle
with time, so could hypothetically chip off a bit on a nonporous substrate like film, and go where you don't want it. I like it for spotting negs. But since negs typically
need to be cleaned before printing, your ink data would end up getting removed anyway, if you did a thorough job. There was an incident in the mid-80's where a
suspected master document forger was finally convicted, even though the exact chemical makeup of the ink was exact, and authentic antique paper was, because
under a microsope, the tell-tale aging cracks in the ink were missing.

[Bob Salomon]

Kaiser CD Marking Pens will write on anything (including glass), dry instantly and are archival. They are alcohol based and are largest dealer for them are the library supply companies like gaylord. They are fine tipped and available in a 4 pack with a red, green, blue and black pen or in bulk with all black pens.

[Lenny Eiger]

I would say don't do it. You haven't asked whether the mounting fluid (presumably used by the scanning guys) will dissolve the ink and make a mess.

I would say, put the 4x5's in a print file sleeve and make all the marks you want on the top... Ask the scanning guys to put the film back int he same place they found it. They should comply....

(as long as they are not retroanticompliant)

Lenny

[AtlantaTerry]

I would say don't do it. You haven't asked whether the mounting fluid (presumably used by the scanning guys) will dissolve the ink and make a mess.

I would say, put the 4x5's in a print file sleeve and make all the marks you want on the top... Ask the scanning guys to put the film back int he same place they found it. They should comply....

(as long as they are not retroanticompliant)

Lenny

Thanks Lenny for the information. To date the fellow who scans my negatives is not equipped for wet scanning on his Epson V700 so it has not been a concern. However, now that you tell me, I will only mark my 4-up archival storage pages.

The only thing he does "wrong" is put my negatives back in the pages emulsion side up, not down. Why he puts them in wrong reading I don't understand but it is easy for me to fix.

[AtlantaTerry]

Update: the PITT pens at Michael's Crafts were in individual packages, not two per package.

But, they did have packages with various sizes of PITT pens (S + M + L + XL) etc.