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CCHarrison
18-Sep-2013, 03:51
Would anyone like to share their source for flanges? And let me clarify, a reasonably priced source for making flanges? SK Grimes is not an option. I need some less expensive flanges for some "project" lenses I am resurrecting.

Thanks
Dan

bracan
18-Sep-2013, 04:13
Hi Dan, I have in my city old metal workshop where I make flanges from everything, metal, wood, plastic, brass and copper. Unfortunatelly brass and copper pieces for work is very expensive:(

Bob Salomon
18-Sep-2013, 04:25
What sizes??

CCHarrison
18-Sep-2013, 04:33
Bob - these would need to be custom made for 19th century lenses...but the diameters range from 30mm to about 70mm....

Jody_S
18-Sep-2013, 04:52
I am currently between lathes, as I haven't replaced the machinery I sold when I sold my house and moved everything into storage for a year. But I usually make my own, and usually out of mild steel for cost reasons. They can be painted black or brass if desired, but I could buy a chunk of 4" or 5" dia steel from a scrapyard for $10-15. I've always resold machinery like lathes for about what I paid, so my real cost is quite low.

Jac@stafford.net
18-Sep-2013, 05:16
these would need to be custom made for 19th century lenses...but the diameters range from 30mm to about 70mm....

Could you use a universal lens holder (http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/Images/L95.JPG)?

CCHarrison
18-Sep-2013, 05:30
Jac, I am looking to unload some lenses, so a universal holder, doesnt do me any good.

I dont care much what the flange is made out of, although brass is always preferred...anyone else?

thanks !
Dan

wombat2go
18-Sep-2013, 06:09
I machine, as hobby, various lens adaptors.
I use Aluminum Alloy for easy machining and low cost, but it is not correct for vintage jobs
From time to time I purchase a bar stock of 6061 Aluminum Alloy, 2.25 inch dia by 12 inch long. ( ~ $25)
The issue with machining lens adaptors out of solid is that most of the material ends up as cuttings in the scrap bin.
I found that 2.25 inch diameter is a good compromise for the various adaptors I make.

I also purchase 360 Brass bar, 1 inch by 12 inch (~ $32) for knurled nuts, bushes, clamp pieces etc.

CC wants up to 70mm . So I checked Amazon /Small parts prices

360 Brass bar 2.75 inch by 12 inch $ 184.91
It might be possible to purchase a thick walled brass tube stock to save some cost..
I think those old flanges would have been fabricated out of brass plate, rolled into a tube and soldered, but I could not do that in my workshop.

Jim C.
18-Sep-2013, 07:03
Like other members have said, custom made flanges out of brass get expensive because of the brass
the only other option is to check the 'Bay for flanges.

wombat2go, your price estimate is off on the 360 brass, if you include the actual flange where you would have the screw
holes to fasten to a lens board add about another inch, so what you should be pricing is a 3.5" round bar.

smithdoor
18-Sep-2013, 07:33
I can better help you with your flange if you have a drawing of the flange you need

Dave

wombat2go
18-Sep-2013, 07:36
Then a cut to size 4 inch by 4 inch by 1/4 inch 260 brass plate is quoted online (cut2sizemetals.com) as $104 for 4 pieces ( ~$25/piece)
That could be bolted to the face plate and turned into a round flange, then trepanned and bored..
I am thinking aloud here just to get an idea how to make a big brass flange, using the machines I have. ( mainly a 1939 South bend 9A).
Then silver solder the flange to the barrel ?

Of course a modern machine shop would do it more efficiently.
We might end up concluding the pro price is not so bad

A drawing of the largest and smallest flange would be useful, CC ??

goamules
18-Sep-2013, 07:40
I sent you an email with a recommended machinist's address, sorry the PMs weren't working.

I think Wombat2go has more of the actual skills than most. I'm always surprised at how difficult and expensive this sounds to the non-machinist (like me!). But man started making threaded fittings hundreds of years ago, and certainly by the 1850s they were common in firearms, locomotive steam engines, ships, lab equipment, stills, microscopes and telescopes. And still are. I don't think it's a lost art, we just have to find a machinist's forum and ask!

Jon Shiu
18-Sep-2013, 08:08
Also, many of us have odd flanges in various sizes. If you list what you need, maybe someone has one.

Jon

Sevo
18-Sep-2013, 08:21
I think those old flanges would have been fabricated out of brass plate, rolled into a tube and soldered, but I could not do that in my workshop.

It is fairly recent that tubes are extruded, rolling and soldering or welding used to be the standard factory procedure. At least in the 20th century, camera and lens factories won't have made their own tubes, but bought them in.

Jac@stafford.net
18-Sep-2013, 09:07
I have used what I call external 'snap' rings - retainers.
They come in very many sizes with close increments.
Here is my better reference. http://smretainingrings.com/XB%20RING%20SPECS.pdf

You want to look at the column marked "FD" - Free Diameter (internal diameter).

Also Google for "constant section ring" and "spirolox" for other approaches.

Use two - one on each side of the lens board.

Regular Rod
18-Sep-2013, 10:18
I have used what I call external 'snap' rings - retainers.
They come in very many sizes with close increments.
Here is my better reference. http://smretainingrings.com/XB%20RING%20SPECS.pdf

You want to look at the column marked "FD" - Free Diameter (internal diameter).

Also Google for "constant section ring" and "spirolox" for other approaches.

Use two - one on each side of the lens board.

What a brilliant idea!

(I wonder if a certain French cheese manufacturer has seen their "logo"...)

RR

Bob Salomon
18-Sep-2013, 10:52
Just out of curiosity. Do you know anyone that can do 3-D printing? If they can make a gun this way then a reaining ring or a flange should be no big challange.

Jac@stafford.net
18-Sep-2013, 11:14
(I wonder if a certain French cheese manufacturer has seen their "logo"...)

Oui! La vache qui rit!

Regular Rod
18-Sep-2013, 16:24
Oui! La vache qui rit!

About the very nicest of the processed cheese spreads...

RR

Tin Can
18-Sep-2013, 16:30
Now that's a good idea.

Good fitting threads of a strong plastic will work for smaller lenses.



Just out of curiosity. Do you know anyone that can do 3-D printing? If they can make a gun this way then a reaining ring or a flange should be no big challange.

Jim Graves
18-Sep-2013, 21:05
I have used what I call external 'snap' rings - retainers.
They come in very many sizes with close increments.
Here is my better reference. http://smretainingrings.com/XB%20RING%20SPECS.pdf

You want to look at the column marked "FD" - Free Diameter (internal diameter).

Also Google for "constant section ring" and "spirolox" for other approaches.

Use two - one on each side of the lens board.

Jac ... trying to visualize how you use these ... do they fit into the valley of the threads on the base of the lens which would normally screw into the flange? If so, how do you secure the fasteners to the board? And, what thickness do you use?

Jim in Sacramento

Jim C.
18-Sep-2013, 21:43
What a brilliant idea!

(I wonder if a certain French cheese manufacturer has seen their "logo"...)

RR

I'm sure they did, but I think it would be easy to differentiate foil wrapped wedges of spreadable cheese
from metal snap rings. :)

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2013, 03:46
Jac ... trying to visualize how you use these ... do they fit into the valley of the threads on the base of the lens which would normally screw into the flange? If so, how do you secure the fasteners to the board? And, what thickness do you use?

Jim in Sacramento

They are too thick to fit in the valley of the thread. Instead, the proper size will grip tightly. Using one on each side right up against the board will keep the lens in place. These fit using a special kind of pliers. You need a large one for the large rings. Google Image "Large Retaining Ring Pliers". Be sure you look for external ring pliers, or dual-purpose (external and internal). (I never found a way to improvise the tool.)

civich
19-Sep-2013, 05:55
Jac,
This is very interesting. Do the retainer clips damage the (usually brass) threads in any way that would prevent the shutter/lens from screwing into a normal flange later? Is the connection tight or just adequately tight? This may be an inexpensive solution to my Betax 3 shutter flange need while I wait for one to pop up here or on ebay. -Chris


They are too thick to fit in the valley of the thread. Instead, the proper size will grip tightly. Using one on each side right up against the board will keep the lens in place. These fit using a special kind of pliers. You need a large one for the large rings. Google Image "Large Retaining Ring Pliers". Be sure you look for external ring pliers, or dual-purpose (external and internal). (I never found a way to improvise the tool.)

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2013, 07:37
There is always a risk of munging up brass threads, and I did not consider the shutter issue. The retainer is rather a last-resort for me. You have to measure the existing thread area and choose the retainer carefully so that it just fits.

gevalia
19-Sep-2013, 11:51
I bought a Heliar a few years back from Jim Galli. I asked him for a flange to go with it and I remember him saying he had a drawer full. You may want to ping him. Or how about Eddie Gunks.

civich
19-Sep-2013, 13:28
Hmm. Still, an interesting, creative & inexpensive alternative or stop-gap until the correct flange shows up. Thanks for the info. -Chris

There is always a risk of munging up brass threads, and I did not consider the shutter issue. The retainer is rather a last-resort for me. You have to measure the existing thread area and choose the retainer carefully so that it just fits.

goamules
19-Sep-2013, 13:57
Personally, if I don't have a flange, my main goal with mounting is to keep the threads in good shape in case I ever find a flange. The best way to do this is not to use metal on metal, and not to use glue.

I've been doing what Mark Sawyer taught me - use a soft rubber hose clamp, from Home Depot. These have a ring of rubber, which you can split to fit precisely on the threads. Over the outside of the rubber, in a nice groove, is the hose clamp. They hold the lens by the barrel tube at the rear, very firmly keeping the front fillet against the wooden lens board. I think he posted a picture here somewhere.

Leigh
19-Sep-2013, 14:25
Regarding the cost of manufacturing a one-off flange for an odd lens...

This has to be done by a machinist on a manual machine.
Computer-driven machines are not financially viable for one-offs.

Add to this the fact that vintage lenses probably use 55 Whitworth threads, rather than
the modern 60 threadform. This has to do with the shape of the thread cross-section.

You cannot cut 55 Whitworth threads with modern thread-cutting tools. You must make
new tooling specifically to cut those threads, and it's not usable for modern threads.

Everything in this world costs money.

- Leigh

wombat2go
20-Sep-2013, 05:37
Good Morning Leigh,
I purchased from a UK supplier, a set of threading tools which are 55 degree Whitworth on one end and 60 degree for iso metric / USA threads on the other.

My hobby lathe here in USA is geared for inch threads and the gear set for conversion to metric threading is too costly for me.
After a lot of search assisted by a specialist in Australia I have just purchased a compound gear which will fit on the quadrant and allow the lathe to do metric threads for camera lenses.

The history was as I read, in 1800's British lathes were the best, so the camera makers in Germany and France used them to make "Metric Whitworth" threads of which the Leica M39 26 TPI 55 degree Whitworth lens mount is an enduring example .

I can make that thread here and with the new gear, I should be able to make the iso metric thread too.

So I am working on a project to adapt a 1957 Prontor ( 60 degree, metric) to the M39 ( inch, 55 degree Whitworth) on a Graflex lens board.
Dan Fromm has advised me of the cons of putting lens inside the lens board but i will do it anyway to get some experience.

Cutting internal camera threads on the old lathe is a bit of challenge; the lead screw has to be engaged for the whole session, light cuts, one mistake and it is in the scrap bin !

Jac@stafford.net
20-Sep-2013, 07:25
[...]I've been doing what Mark Sawyer taught me - use a soft rubber hose clamp, from Home Depot. [...]

I have an Aero Ektar to mount today. I am off to get one of those clamps! Thanks to you and Mark for the tip.

civich
20-Sep-2013, 07:29
Also a nice solution! & locally accessible. Thanks for passing this on Garrett. -Chris


"use a soft rubber hose clamp, from Home Depot"

Mark Sawyer
20-Sep-2013, 10:07
It's not as elegant as a flange, but functional, secure, doesn't damage the lens, and can't be seen with the lens on the camera. A photo so people can see what Garrett and I are talking about:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/IMG_6091.jpg

*note: you'll have to trim the sewer connecter down to get one strip from each side. I made a little cutting jig, (a razor blade screwed to a piece of wood as thick as I wanted the rubber strip, then push the connector into it and rotate til it cuts through), to do it as cleanly as possible.

goamules
20-Sep-2013, 12:04
Mark is the master at do it yourself photography equipment and modifications.

Henry Ambrose
21-Sep-2013, 07:49
I can make any flange you need, whatever thread. It may not be "cheap", but rather "economical". It might help to think that a nice flange adds to the future resale value of the lens, and is not just an expense that flies away. If you have questions about lens mounting, lens flanges, boards or other camera machine work, send me a private message through the forum.

Tin Can
21-Sep-2013, 09:47
This may be the wave of the future. This is unbelievable for $1000, but who knows, make all your parts at home.

Watch out for the music.

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fabtotum-personal-fabricator