Is it OK to quickly dip my 4x5 negatives into alcohol to expedite drying?

[AtlantaTerry]

With my current living situation I share a house with four other people. Two of them share the upstairs hallway bathroom with me. I convert the bathroom into a sheet film processing line then stretch a cord above the bathtub from which to hang up to 12 Kodak #4A stainless steel sheet film racks.

A cell phone snapshot of my 4x5 sheet film processing line:
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The problem I'm having is the racks want to retain the distilled water + PhotoFlo between the metal and the negatives. This means it takes several hours for the negatives to fully dry. When they are finally dry, there are no problems.

One trick I have been using since the '70s to speed drying is to gently move my fingers along the outside of each rack. This causes much of the excess fluid to drain through the perforations in the rack onto my fingers.

My problem is that the two roommates want to take a shower before leaving for college and can't if the negatives are hanging up to dry. This could create a problem with my landlord and I don't want that to happen.

So far what I have been doing is getting up about a half hour before the students do to move the racks to my room so the negatives can finish drying. Of course this means I could damage a negative in transport. Or they could pick up a bit of dust in areas where a negative is not fully dry.

So I have been looking for alternatives.

One would be to place the racks onto one of those As Seen On TV super absorbent orange fabrics. I hope it would quickly wick away the excess fluid.

Another idea is to quickly dip each individual sheet film rack into a solution of denatured alcohol + distilled water + PhotoFlo. I have two questions:
1. would the alcohol mix expedite drying?
2. would the alcohol cause my negatives to be non-archival? I ask because a friend who runs a photo lab says that alcohol is caustic and if he is not careful can soften the glue used in his processing machines. Would that happen with a quick one or two second dip?

I would appreciate any feedback or other ideas on how to expedite drying my negatives.

Thanks,
Terry

[BarryS]

Terry--I suggest taking the film out the of sheet film holders and using cloths pins the clip the corners for hanging. They'll dry fast as long as the humidity isn't too high.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes, it would speed up drying, but only on the surface of the negative but most likely not where the racks retain water. I did this all the time during humid, Japanese summers (not with racks, though... just hung by corner). I have negatives that are 20 years old and appear fine to my eyeballs. Are you hanging the racks at an angle? At least this way water will not be able to settle along the bottom edge.

[AtlantaTerry]

Barry: I forgot to add as my 3rd idea to use wood clothes pins. Back in the '70s when I had a very nice darkroom, I tried using spring-powered wood clothes pins for my 4x5 work like I did with 35mm and 120/220 film. BUT sometimes after a while a wet negative would fall to the concrete floor and I was not a happy camper. Yes, I could do that here because they would only fall into the bathtub but still could end up damaged.

Andrew, yes, the racks are hanging at an angle. If you are not familiar with a Kodak #4A stainless steel hanger, there are two hooks (one at each end) of the upper bar. So by connecting one of the end hooks onto the drying line they hang at a nice angle.

A cell phone snapshot of my negatives drying on a line above the bathtub:
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[IanG]

Yes, it would speed up drying, but only on the surface of the negative but most likely not where the racks retain water. I did this all the time during humid, Japanese summers (not with racks, though... just hung by corner). I have negatives that are 20 years old and appear fine to my eyeballs. Are you hanging the racks at an angle? At least this way water will not be able to settle along the bottom edge.

Actually if you pass film through 2 or 3 alcohol baths the water is drawn out and film will dry very quickly, not just the surface. It's over 42 years since I last did this but I could get a film dry in 2 or 3 minutes, the last bath was 100% alcohol.

Ian

[Tin Can]

These are pics of 5x7 neg hanging using "Kodak Film Processing Hanger # 6". I got them locally and didn't know what they were, but they sure are great for drying film.

The are made to hang at an angle and have 2 pin point film contacts. While drying I blot the bottom tip of water. film drys very quickly, much faster than in regular hangers.

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[Sevo]

It used to be common in press labs (to the point that many photo chemistry makers had ready mixed alcohol/antistatic rinses). It may cause the negatives to become slightly milky (supposedly due to some textural change in the gelatin) - YMMV whether that affects your prints, the major news agency I worked for certainly did not mind it.

But leave out the distilled water - you will only experience a significantly speedier and spotless drying as long as the alcohol content is fairly considerable (IIRC the Tetenal stuff was considered depleted once the alcohol dropped below 70%). If you already start with dilute alcohol, you'll be able to use it for precious few films before it has to be tossed.

Alcohol is not caustic, but it will cause common contact adhesives as used on adhesive tape to soften and swell. Processing machinery and tanks ought to be alcohol safe, none of the Jobo and Colenta tanks and reels I've used it with ever were damaged. As long as you do not have any adhesive tape on your film (pro labs use it to chain film, mark sheets with a job number or fix odd sizes in mismatched frames, and there will be residues from the spool/paper mounting tape on medium and small format rolls), dipping the entire frame is safe - and even bits of tape on the film would not really create damage as long as you don't handle them until dried.

[Harold_4074]

On occasion, I have had more negatives to dry than I have film clips. My solution was to get a pack of plastic clothespins (there are at least two styles made, and maybe more, so you want the ones with the strongest springs) and file down the "inner" bump so that the grip is concentrated at the open end. With this modification, the serrated jaws grip film quite securely. If the clothespins don't have holes at the "handle" end, you will have to add one so that an S-hook (i.e., an opened paper clip) will allow you to hang it from a line.

Your negatives will reach a state of damage resistance sooner if you hang them by one corner, and wick off the water at the lowest corner after about two or three minutes of draining. This will also tend to reduce the watermark effect of any dissolved salts in the water.

[AtlantaTerry]

Randy: you could almost do the same by buying some clothing hangers with spring-powered clips to hold men's pants. Simply adjust the clips to be to one side of center and the combined weight of the clips + film will guarantee hanging at an angle.

[Tin Can]

I got 80 assorted stainless steel clips for $20, they were on Chicago Craigslist for 6 months.

An old man was selling contents of very old, very nice home. The house was almost empty...


Randy: you could almost do the same by buying some clothing hangers with spring-powered clips to hold men's pants. Simply adjust the clips to be to one side of center and the combined weight of the clips + film will guarantee hanging at an angle.

[AtlantaTerry]

Harold: it has long been my opinion that wood clothes pins work better than plastic because (IMHO) the wood swells upon contact with the fluid giving a stronger grip whereas plastic does not and the film might slip off.

[AtlantaTerry]

I am going to give my old technique of spring-powered wooden clothes pins another try. I bought 36 and drilled holes about 1/4 inch in from each "handle". Then I used flower arranging wire to fashion hooks that will attach to my drying line.

Last night I was at The Container Store and noticed in the gift wrap department some teeny tiny wood clothes pins. I suppose they might be used to adorn gifts for baby showers so some such. I bought a package of 25 for $2 with the idea in mind that they will be just the thing to hang from the lowest corner of my negatives to drain excess fluid off yet not leave much of a mark since they are so small.

When I run the next batch of film I will report the results back here of how it went with the clothes pins.

At this point I am still wary of using alcohol to speed drying and will only resort that that if needed.

Thank you all for your feedback, it was very helpful.

Terry

[jp]

I've used alcohol and clothespins for 20 years to dry film.

I wear gloves as the alcohol will release oil from your skin and that will smear across the negative. But I wear gloves when handling negatives at any time now.
I do a final rinse in distilled water to make the negative clean.
Then hang it on the clothespin.
With my 91% isopropyl alcohol bottle from walmart, I have poked a small hole in the safety seal. This turns the bottle into a squirt bottle. I then squirt the negative on the front and back so it's all wet with alcohol, and it dries quick.
Make sure the alcohol you use isn't full of beauty products. Rubbing alcohol may or may not contain additives that you don't want. Just check the ingredients.

[AtlantaTerry]

I got 80 assorted stainless steel clips for $20, they were on Chicago Craigslist for 6 months.

Are those the ones with two pincers? If so, I never liked them for 35mm or 120/220 film because they perforated the film damaging it so would never use them for sheet film.

[SergeiR]

Make yourself drying box/rack. With fan. Possibly with low heating fan. Or scavenge fleabay for them.

All you need is basically a cardboard box with strings. Clips you can buy from hobby stores by dozen. Get air filter from home store. Get fan from computer store for like 5$, stick fan to suck air out. Block opposite end (or side, its your call) of box with air filter. Close other exists for air. On you go.


Alternatively you can buy drying cabinet used from uppermentioned fleabay, they pop up all the time. I got big metal one after a while, so i can hang stips or dozens of 4x5/ 8x10 now (or slightly larger)

[Harold_4074]

Regarding wood versus plastic: YMMV :)

While the wood may swell, the grip is not improved because the force is pretty much controlled by the spring. Also, the swollen wood will have a larger contact area, which is explicitly not what you want. The pins that I found had serrations near the tips, and gripped well enough that the dried negatives showed tiny grooves molded into the gelatin, out there in the margin where the jaws had rested. Stainless steel springs, too!

Now, if you are willing to really brutalize your negatives, you can try a trick that I understand was once use for combat photography: a quick rinse in nearly-saturated sodium sulfate solution, and then dry with a towel. It was probably useful for contact-printed bomb damage assessment pictures, but I can't imagine what an enlargement would be like :p

[AtlantaTerry]

:) Thanks, Harold, but I don't think I'm going the sodium sulfate route. Isn't that the same stuff Polaroid said to use on their P/N film if you wanted to transport the negative in their purpose-built tank? The problem I encountered was spillage and the resulting chemical powder when the fluid dried. Then I read in some photo magazine to, instead, use a PermaWash such as that from Edwal or Ilford that came in liquid form. My clients and I were much happier after I converted.

Back in the '70s when I experimented with spring-powered wood clothes pins I always felt that they gripped my negatives nicely. The ones that fell to the floor were more likely user error. RTFM! When it came time to remove the film from the clips it frequently was a struggle because the two had dried together. Since the clothes pins I used back then were flat on each side they did not pierce or bend the film but they did leave a bit of a mark in the clear area created by the holder end flap where the emulsion was gripped. But that mark never affected my enlargements. I'll see what happens with the clothes pins I bought this week. (No stainless steel springs, though.)

[AtlantaTerry]

Make yourself drying box/rack.

I like that idea. But instead of a cardboard box that could shed fiber what I would use is one of those sturdy dark grey plastic tubs with two hinged interlocking flaps. The tubs can be found at hardware or home improvement stores such as Home Depot for less than US $10. As a matter of fact, I have a couple already in my bedroom that I use to store my chemicals, sheet film racks, GraLab timer, etc.

The nice thing about the tub is it can be wiped down with a damp microfiber cloth periodically to remove any loose dust then spray the inside with an anti-static product such as EnDust.

To modify the tub I would do as you say and cut a hole for an air filter. I would spray the air filter with more EnDust. I'm not sure if I would want to pull any air through the tub. At first I would see how long simple convection drying takes.

Thank you for the suggestion, Sergei.

[BarryS]

I also find hemostats make excellent film drying clips. They hold very tightly and clamp with very little surface area. You can get them very cheaply on eBay and they're terrible quality for surgery, but great for film. I botched a lot of surgical procedures before I started using them exclusively in the darkroom.

[Lachlan 717]

Rather than using a fan, perhaps consider getting a heating pad. These are often used in the home brew process. Put in the bottom of the drying cabinet/box, and with the hole and air filter, it will both warm the air within the cabinet and create convection currents of clean air.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I second the recommendation to hang the negatives by one corner using clothes pins.

Touch the downward corner to encourage draining, then move them out of the bathroom to complete drying.

Aside: I also go back to the later days when press photographers using LF would force partial drying with alcohol, then print the negatives wet. And often with only a rinse. That accounts for a lot of old, stained negatives. Ugh!

[AtlantaTerry]

Aside: I also go back to the later days when press photographers using LF would force partial drying with alcohol, then print the negatives wet. And often with only a rinse. That accounts for a lot of old, stained negatives. Ugh!

Back in the '60s I was a newspaper photographer and that is exactly how we printed our negatives. If you think the negatives were stained, you should have seen the enlargers!

One thing I quickly learned was that wet printing was a sloppy procedure. Before I got to the newspaper the guys used to dry film in a metal tube fitted with a heated blower at the top. It would blast six or eight 35mm reels of film dry in a minute or so. The big problem with that procedure was the rolls of Tri-X would have the power of a Slinky steel coil and they were hell to print with, make contact sheets for the editors and finally file. But then I had a brilliant idea: don't completely dry the reels of film, dry them for only about 20 seconds then remove them from the heater tube and REVERSE load them back onto the reel. Then hit them for another 30 seconds. Once we got the hang of it we could do this faster than it takes to write or read about it and the final films were flat as a pancake! No more struggling with Slinky-powered coils of film!

[Light Guru]

I made a drying box from a simple plastic filing box and a computer fan from radio shack.
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I drilled holes near the bottom of the box to help with air flow.

[Lachlan 717]

I made a drying box from a simple plastic filing box and a computer fan from radio shack.
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101712
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I drilled holes near the bottom of the box to help with air flow.

Any dust problems? I'd be adding a vacuum HEPA filter if this was what I was using.

[C_Remington]

You were developing film 40 years ago and you are still sharing a house with 4 other people???????

[Light Guru]

Any dust problems? I'd be adding a vacuum HEPA filter if this was what I was using.

I haven't had any dust problems but other people's environments my differ.

[Tin Can]

I would share my place to save money if it was big enough, and I first developed film at age 9, 53 years ago.

Times are tough.




You were developing film 40 years ago and you are still sharing a house with 4 other people???????

[polyglot]

If you're making a drying box, you NEED a fan to exchange the air through the box. Heat is optional and useful but not sufficient. If you don't pump out the wet air and replace it with dry, the contents of the box will reach its dewpoint and no further drying of the negatives will occur.

For my (larger than you probably want: it handles 16 rolls of 120 vertically and I put 31 rolls through it yesterday) drying cabinet, I used a bathroom exhaust-fan and a rectangular car-engine air-filter and built the cabinet from 12mm plywood. If the filter is good enough to protect an engine, it's good enough for film. You want the exhaust (unfiltered) opening for the box to face downwards so as to reduce the likelihood of dust ingress while the box is not in use. Mine has a bunch of holes in the bottom for that purpose; air is forced into the top through the filter.

If you're just drying 4x5, a tiny plastic tub with computer fan and a small filter paper should be totally fine. Say you do cross-flow (so the box can sit on a bench while in use), put a PVC elbow on the exhaust to keep the dust out. Or even just a little awning made of plastic sheeting.

I use small steel bulldog clips (the office-stationery things) as film clips. And I squeegee, though that will offend some sensibilities.

[AtlantaTerry]

You were developing film 40 years ago and you are still sharing a house with 4 other people???????

*sigh* yeah, sometimes life takes a funny turn...

I would not have used the word "still" as this situation is fairly recent. I would have used the word "now".

After fighting cancer for 12 years and beating it, I'm now working on my bucket list. One of the checkoff items is to go back to shooting with large format cameras.

Reality sets in when you know you have fewer than 10 years left.

[Tin Can]

I fully understand, some of us have little time.

My mantra now is, 'Some much to do, so little time.'

I am working my ass off trying to learn LF, make a dream darkroom and make one good image before I croak.

Beat the Reaper.



*sigh* yeah, sometimes life takes a funny turn...

I would not have used the word "still" as this situation is fairly recent. I would have used the word "now".

After fighting cancer for 12 years and beating it, I'm now working on my bucket list. One of the checkoff items is to go back to shooting with large format cameras.

Reality sets in when you know you have fewer than 10 years left.

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Drying with Organic Solutions

The use of methyl, ethyl, or denatured alcohol has been suggested many times for rapid drying of film, plates, or papers. Strong alcohol solutions may produce opalescence or milkiness in the emulsion layer, but pure methyl alcohol did not produce milkiness. According to J.I. Crabtree, the degree of opalescence increased as drying was more rapid or the drying temperature was higher. The addition of 1 % salicylic acid to denatured alcohol was found to be effective in preventing the opalescence. Strong alcohol solutions may damage some film bases by causing them to swell, and plasticizers may be extracted. Upon drying, the base may be very brittle and may cockle or curl badly.

The following recommendations were made by Stevens for the rapid drying of film, plates, or prints with alcohol:

1. The drying of plates may be speeded by bathing (after washing) for 2 to 5 min in a bath containing not more than 70 % ethyl alcohol by volume.
2. A 2-min treatment in 70 % ethyl alcohol may be used with films, but some film base materials may be harmed. Undiluted ethyl alcohol may be used with either films or plates if drying temperatures do not exceed 70°F.
3. Prints on very thin base paper may be dried rapidly by immersing for 1 to 2 min in denatured alcohol, blotting off the surface liquid, and drying in the normal way.
4. Prints on single-weight or heavier paper bases have been dried by soaking for 20 min in undiluted denatured alcohol, then pinning the print to a stick and setting fire to the alcohol running off the print at the bottom. The stick must be waved to prevent the edges of the print from becoming charred. Soaking a single-weight print for 2 to 3 min will produce almost complete drying after the alcohol has burned off, but double-weight prints cannot be dried completely. Prints on very lightweight papers have a tendency to char or burn.

Alcohol evaporates more easily than water and requires less heat. It can pass into either dry or wet gelatin until the proportions of the alcohol in the solution inside and outside are essentially equal. Water in a swollen emulsion layer is partly replaced by a proportion of alcohol nearly equal to that in the solution, reducing the swelling of the gelatin layer and aiding in more rapid drying.
A solvent mixture of 25 % diacetone alcohol in petroleum ether has been suggested for displacing water from washed photographic materials. After a 1-min treatment with gentle agitation, the film may be removed and wiped with a soft cloth, being essentially dry. Diacetone alcohol combines with water at the surface of the emulsion layer, forming droplets of diacetone alcohol-water mixture that is insoluble in petroleum ether. When dislodged by the agitation, the droplets fall to the bottom of the container to form a heavier layer. The lower layer may be removed and the diacetone alcohol regenerated.

[photobymike]

I fully understand, some of us have little time.

My mantra now is, 'Some much to do, so little time.'

I am working my ass off trying to learn LF, make a dream darkroom and make one good image before I croak.

Beat the Reaper.

noble endeavors which i share ... 13 years old plus 48 here since the first roll..... what is it that hooked us on seeing the magic in the darkroom..

[tgtaylor]

Get your processed film out of the bathroom and into the closet!:cool:

After the photo-flo treatment, I hang my 120, 4x5 and 8x10 negatives to dry in a women's wardrobe in the closet with the princer clips with one weighted for the 120 and these http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/123163-REG/Delta_58050_Stainless_Steel_Film_Clips.html for the sheets. The women's wardrobe I bought at Walmart for $6 and will hold 10 4x5 negatives or 5 or 6 rolls of 120. They are fully enclosed with a zippered front protecting from dust. Once in the wardrobe, film takes about 4 hours to dry. If I want to speed up drying or for handling overflow from the wardrobe, I bought an Arkay CD-10 film dryer off a local craigslist posting for $75 or $90. The Arkay will handle up to 11x14 sheet film and sits in the kitchen right next to the wine cooler which it is slightly taller than and the flat top serves as a storage area.

If you use the Delta clips linked to above, clip the 4x5's on one corner very close to the edge and the sheet will hang correctly to dry and will leave no mark on the negative. Because of the weight of the 8x10 negative its necessary to clip it a little further in on the corner and I choose the appropriate corner for that.

Thomas

[Jim Noel]

Your next concern is going to be over-developed edges on the film.
NEVER PUT A HANGAR IN PHOTO-FLO!! Over time it will build up and become a catalyst causing over development.

[chuck94022]

One perhaps expensive alcohol choice might be kami fluid, which is used for scanning. It doesn't harm the negative, and evaporates completely in seconds. Downside is the expense plus the fact that it is extremely flammable. A small spark of static can set it off.

An alternative to expensive Kami fluid is cheap lighter fluid, perhaps with a bit of mineral spirits mixed in. Sandy King has posted a recipe for homemade Kami fluid, either here or on Apug.

I've used Kami for scanning and it is incredible stuff. I never considered it to speed drying. I've also used straight lighter fluid and it is almost as good, but can leave a slight residue.

[Sevo]

One perhaps expensive alcohol choice might be kami fluid, which is used for scanning. It doesn't harm the negative, and evaporates completely in seconds. Downside is the expense plus the fact that it is extremely flammable.

A even worse downside would be that it is not alcohol, but purified naphta - essentially a kind of very clean petrol. As a non-polar solvent it will not dissolve and replace the water in the gelatin. In the worst case it might even bond better to the film base than wet gelatin, and increase the risk of emulsion stripping.

[AtlantaTerry]

Your next concern is going to be over-developed edges on the film.
NEVER PUT A HANGAR IN PHOTO-FLO!! Over time it will build up and become a catalyst causing over development.

I agree if one were using plastic film processing holders, but not stainless steel. Besides, after the film dries I rinse my stainless steel racks in hot water then air dry.

[Jim Noel]

I agree if one were using plastic film processing holders, but not stainless steel. Besides, after the film dries I rinse my stainless steel racks in hot water then air dry.
I know from experience teaching at the college that it also happens with stainless steel hangars, it may just take a little longer. Rinsing the hangars in hot water does usually prevent the problem, but many people don't do this regularly.

[Bob Salomon]

" Before I got to the newspaper the guys used to dry film in a metal tube fitted with a heated blower at the top. It would blast six or eight 35mm reels of film dry in a minute or so."

That was the Senrac dryer. Used them for years in my studio and then later at home for 35 mm and roll film. I think I first saw it at Emory at there photo service darkroom.

[Tom Monego]

Alcohol works, but it is the denaturants used in the alcohol may cause problems. We were told as a photo major in college to only use 100 percent pure ethyl alcohol. Difficult to get, some used White Lightning they bought in a liqueur store. This would maintain the archival processing. This was even difficult to get even from chemical supply distributors. So other than experimenting in college I have never used it. I do remember having more problems with drying spots, soak too long and the gelatin in the emulsion will dissolve or reticulate.

Tom

[photobymike]

i used over proof Jamaican rum once in a college course ... but it got to expensive as we drank it all before we could use it again. it worked fine on drying the negs fast ...but no smoking allowed