The Polaroid 405 film holder only fits some 4x5 cameras?

[alpenhause]

The Polaroid 405 film holder only fits some 4x5 cameras?
Uh Oh!

I am finding out that the Polaroid 405 holder does NOT fit all 4x5 cameras.

After extensive search on the web the Graflex and Graphic cameras seem to have a 50/50 chance of the 405 film holder fitting and working.

Sometimes the 405 can work if the plastic lip where the film comes out is filed down.

Sometimes the spring back can be fitted with spacers to accomodate the thickness of the 405.

Polaroid 405 holders have increased in popularity in recent times, it would be good to know which cameras it works on and which cameras it does not.

I think this will be a very useful thread, here we could compile a list of 4x5 camera models that the 405 works well on and the camera models where the 405 does not fit.

Also we could list the 4x5 cameras that are easily modified or where filing down the lip a bit on the 405 will make it work.

Another interesting aspect is whether or not you can insert and withdraw the darkslide once the 405 holder is in place on the camera as this can greatly influence this holder's convenience and usefullness to some photographers.

Anyway, Hopefully we can come up with a great list of "Fit" and "MissFit" for the 405 holder along with practical easy Modifications.

There are a lot of really sharp people here on LFPF and I think this will be a great useful thread that will be referred to and contributed to a lot.

[fecaleagle]

With the Graflex cameras, it isn't really a matter of chance. If the camera has a Graflok back, the Polaroid/Fuji holders will fit. If it has a Graphic (spring) back, the Polaroid/Fuji holders will not fit or will be exceedingly tight.

On that basis, you might say that Pacemaker Graphics, Anniversary Speeders, Top-Mounted Rangefinder Crowns, and Super Graphics are likely to be FITs.

Earlier models are likely to be MISSes.

But really, for a Graflex camera, just check for a Graflok back.

-William

[Corran]

Actually Steve, I think the issue is sometimes the 405 holder.

There are some 405 holders floating around that have a slightly different placement of the "window" and lip/ridge, than a normal 405. I believe that these were actually made by a 3rd party - the one I had had no markings on it whatsoever. It was curious, as it worked perfectly on the camera you built for me, but it didn't work on any other camera - not any of my cameras with a Graflok, including Crown/Speed Graphics, Toyo GII, or my Chamonix. The ridge prevented it from seating.

I believe some were made to "center" the 3x4 image in the 4x5 area, while others are butted up against one side or the other.

I got rid of that back, and now my two normal Polaroid-brand 405's work perfectly on ALL my cameras.

I have seen on eBay ones JUST like the one that I had. One seller even mentioned that it didn't fit his camera, and he was unsure why, so he was selling it. Oh yeah - also, as you mentioned, the darkslide was an issue on the Polaroid 900 / Xenotar. It was hard to grab, and, when I took the holder out of the camera, it almost always pulled the darkslide out and ruined a sheet. Annoying!

[alpenhause]

Keep the posts coming in Gentlemen!

I am going to post the clearance dimensions needed on one's camera back plate such that one can measure their camera to see if it will fit.

It will be a while though as I am currently out of 405's, as soon as my machinist makes me more of the plates I will get the details and photos posted, sorry I don't have it now for you all.

I am most enthused that the mysteries about the standard 405 will be revealed accurately and that this thread will be one's last stop for info on who fits what regarding the 405 back.

Johnielvis has brought some great info about the existance of "Variant" models of 405's along with Corran reporting the existance of off the wall 405's hence this adds to the mysteries a bit, Some of the oddball 405's will definately be of use to someone, just need to post the differences of samples found.....

[vinny]

As for thickness, if two film holders (stacked) will fit under the ground glass, the 405 will fit that way. The original chamonix 45n-1's graflock style tabs were too sloppy to hold my polaroid holders tight against the back. Unser the ground glass was fine.

[Corran]

Weird, my Chamonix 45n-1's tabs are super-tight and work perfectly on both 405's I have. Is there anything to tighten them down?

[alpenhause]

This is WEIRD!

I have been selling perhaps the more rare version of the Polaroid 405! I have not seen another version like the ones I have been making.

The version I have has the film opening perfectly centered in the 4x5 opening, the more common 405 the film opening is shifted hard to the right.

The version I have been producing and selling works perfectly well on an Alpenhause 110B or 110B/900 Version 4x5 camera, the 405 opening is centered over the 4x5 opening whereas the more common Polaroid 405 is shifted to the right in the 4x5 opening.

After selling almost 40 of theses unusual 405s the Graflex and the Speed Graphic cameras are the most likely for this 405 of mine NOT to fit! But it is funny how many 4x5 cameras these fit well.

Should I discontinue producing these rather rare versions of 405 back? I don't think so..... they are too good a match on the Alpenhause Polaroid 110B/900, everything is centered.

The more common off center 405? Yes, I will make these in the future, they seem to fit more 4x5 cameras even though they are "Off Center" and shifted to the right they do seem to as a whole fit more models of 4x5 camera than my centered rare or old version 405s do.

Lucky me! The one and only Polaroid 405 back I ever had was one of these "Centered" image versions, this is the one my machinist perfectly replicated for me to sell on the various venues, Amazing! only 3 or 4 people had issues fitting these to their 4x5 cameras out of 40 units! The Cameras? All of them Graflex products with the "Universal" Graflock back.

OK! Here is the great info for everyone, The photos show you the difference of these 405 versions, the first photo is the version I have been selling, note that the image will be in the center of the 4x5 frame.

The second photo is what I perceive as the more common version of the Polaroid 405, Note that the Fuji PA-145 is darn near identical in that the opening is shifted hard to the right in relation to the 4x5 frame opening.

The third image? Go figure...... this 405 lacks the latching ridge found on most 4x5 film holders, I am thinking if someone is not paying attention when the pull the tabs they will inadvertently pull this 405 out of the camera! LOL!

[alpenhause]

I just performed a search on Google, The only 405s that are centered like mine oddly enough are my photos!

I should claim the version I had my machinist reproduce (Faceplate) as the "Alpenhause Version 405"

A statement like this is bound to stir the Ire of "Forum Rats" and other "Forum Flamers"! But really, someone out there can shed some light on what and why these unusual 405s I have been producing do not match the more common 405 along with a bit of history, How many versions did Polaroid make of the 405? And.... Why?

I am pretty sure my version of 405 was made by Polaroid because the faceplate was die cast aluminum or a regular casting, doubtful it was some "Aftermarket" 405. I am not for sure about this....

[ghostcount]

I'm curious, is there a difference relative to the position the film emulsion (Fp-100C) between the centered and off-centered holders?

[alpenhause]

I'm curious, is there a difference relative to the position the film emulsion (Fp-100C) between the centered and off-centered holders?

Yes, There is, The centered holder places the sensitive emulsion in the center of the 4x5 opening.

The off-centered holder places the sensitive emulsion to the right of the 4x5 opening.

Both holders do indeed expose the entire 3 1/4" X 4 1/4" image of the instant film, no cut-off.

[Bob Salomon]

Well, i'll throw a different problem into the mix.
On the Linhof Kardan B cameras the "U" standard on the back, when any holder was inserted horizontally and some center tilt was employed, the holder, or the dark slide, would hit the upright of the standard and prevent it from being properly inserted (Polaroid back). This did not happen when base tilts were used on the back standard. The simple workaround was to add what Linhof called the Polaroid Adapter 002583 which moved the camera back away from the camera body so the holder cleared the U standard.

[ghostcount]

Yes, There is, The centered holder places the sensitive emulsion in the center of the 4x5 opening.

The off-centered holder places the sensitive emulsion to the right of the 4x5 opening.

Both holders do indeed expose the entire 3 1/4" X 4 1/4" image of the instant film, no cut-off.

I see, so it impacts where you place your image on the ground glass - noted when making a 3.25" x 4.25" mask for the 4x5. Thank you!

[pierre506]

120559
It's the scanned mask for 4x5 GG.

[FryingPan]

Hey all. I just stumbled upon this thread after googling some info to see if my (coincidentally purchased from alpenhause on eBay a few days ago) 405 would give me any trouble in my soon-to-be delivered Speed Graphic with the Graphic back. It seems that the jury is split on whether it'll fit or not, so I'll just have to wait to see if I'll have to do any modifications to the camera.

I have, however, used the alpenhause 405 back on my Sinar X with good results. As mentioned, the lip on the 405 back does hit the frame of the rear standard and prevents it from fully inserting, but there's enough "meat" on the back and on the holder to give a good-enough light seal. As a result, the captured portion of the image is pushed more to the right versus being in the dead center of the ground glass.

It does work, however. Hopefully it'll work on the Speed as well- I guess we'll find out next week.

[pierre506]

Hey all. I just stumbled upon this thread after googling some info to see if my (coincidentally purchased from alpenhause on eBay a few days ago) 405 would give me any trouble in my soon-to-be delivered Speed Graphic with the Graphic back. It seems that the jury is split on whether it'll fit or not, so I'll just have to wait to see if I'll have to do any modifications to the camera.

I have, however, used the alpenhause 405 back on my Sinar X with good results. As mentioned, the lip on the 405 back does hit the frame of the rear standard and prevents it from fully inserting, but there's enough "meat" on the back and on the holder to give a good-enough light seal. As a result, the captured portion of the image is pushed more to the right versus being in the dead center of the ground glass.

It does work, however. Hopefully it'll work on the Speed as well- I guess we'll find out next week.
I also met the problem when using 405 and 550 backs on Sinar because the backs hit the frame.
The solution is that you have to dismantle the side of the frame for attaching accessories. You can find two small screws on it.
That's all.

[FryingPan]

I also met the problem when using 405 and 550 backs on Sinar because the backs hit the frame.
The solution is that you have to dismantle the side of the frame for attaching accessories. You can find two small screws on it.
That's all.

This works reasonably well. It's still not a 100% fit, but it's much better than before and places the image area much closer to the center of the ground glass.

[FryingPan]

So here's a thought. Because there still isn't *quite* enough clearance around the lip of the holder, the locking ridge isn't able to fully reach the appropriate groove. As such, it's pushing the back away ever so slightly on one side.

http://i.imgur.com/eRSlZpZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/E0kcTZL.jpg

Under-inserting the back will keep it flush, however It looks like you're going to lose a millimeter or two of the recorded image since it doesn't quite clear the edge of the Graflok.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

Hey all. I just stumbled upon this thread after googling some info to see if my (coincidentally purchased from alpenhause on eBay a few days ago) 405 would give me any trouble in my soon-to-be delivered Speed Graphic with the Graphic back. It seems that the jury is split on whether it'll fit or not, so I'll just have to wait to see if I'll have to do any modifications to the camera.

I have, however, used the alpenhause 405 back on my Sinar X with good results. As mentioned, the lip on the 405 back does hit the frame of the rear standard and prevents it from fully inserting, but there's enough "meat" on the back and on the holder to give a good-enough light seal. As a result, the captured portion of the image is pushed more to the right versus being in the dead center of the ground glass.

It does work, however. Hopefully it'll work on the Speed as well- I guess we'll find out next week.

If you are going to use this back on a Speed with a Graphic back you might want to put a washer under the springs on the back so that you have a bit more space. I did that on mine, following a hint from someone on graflex.org and it gave me the added space to use the back without stressing the springs. You can also exchange your graphic back for a graflok back, if you can find one. That will give you plenty of room for your back.


m

[FryingPan]

If you are going to use this back on a Speed with a Graphic back you might want to put a washer under the springs on the back so that you have a bit more space. I did that on mine, following a hint from someone on graflex.org and it gave me the added space to use the back without stressing the springs. You can also exchange your graphic back for a graflok back, if you can find one. That will give you plenty of room for your back.


m

I received the camera last night and immediately shimmed the springs with a couple of washers and some longer screws. The back fits just fine this way, but I'll likely pick up a Graflok back in a little bit- the springs are just a little flimsy for my liking and with the shims don't grip a standard film holder as solidly as I'd want.

As far as the 405 fitment, it's the same story as my Sinar- the lip on the holder hits the frame of the camera and prevents full insertion and lock. The locking ridge also causes the back to not sit completely flush in the back as illustrated in my previous photo. Perhaps alpenhause could offer a version of the back without this ridge? If not, I'm likely going to grind it off as I just get the sneaking suspicion that the slight variance is going to prevent me from reaching absolutely critical focus.

[Corran]

I had this same issue with my first 405. I bought it from eBay. It turned out to be one of the odd ones. Funny thing is that I didn't notice for a while because I bought it for use with an Alpenhaus Polaroid, with which it worked perfectly, which makes sense now if Steve used that as a basis for his conversions. I noticed this especially when I bought two more 405s of the normal variety, and sold the old one, so that they all worked in my various cameras, but now the Alpenhaus is hard to frame with because the opening is way off to one side (shooting handheld, of course).

[alpenhause]

Well.... Looks like I have a less common version of 405 holder (Centered opening) Lots of folks are happy with them.

One thing I do implement when offering these not so common versions of the 405 is the "will-it-fit" tutorial program of which is working really well.

The potential customer is asked to photograph their 4x5 open back and lay a ruler in it for me to evaluate a fit or no fit.

So far this program works well.

I also offer "extended clearance" versions that have been working really well, first shot shows a photo that a potential customer would submit for evaluation, the other show the modified 405s

[FryingPan]

Oh man, that's exactly what I need! Please tell me you've got more of those and we can work some sort of exchange out or maybe even buy the parts to do the conversion myself?

[MultiFormat Shooter]

An old thread, I know, but will the Polaroid 405 fit the Linhof Technika cameras?

[Corran]

Yes, generally speaking. See my post #3 on this thread about an uncommon variant - this one doesn't fit some cameras and has an off-center opening. But most of the 405's you find will work fine, or the Fuji version.

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Yes, generally speaking. See my post #3 on this thread about an uncommon variant - this one doesn't fit some cameras and has an off-center opening. But most of the 405's you find will work fine, or the Fuji version.

Thanks! I have a few Speed and Crown Graphics, all with the Graflock back. It would be nice be to use a 405 in the Techinka IV, as well...if I can find one for a decent price.

[Corran]

Haven't looked in ages, since selling my pair of 405's, but I thought prices had cratered a little while after Fuji discontinued all their 3x4 films. I had a huge stash of 3000B I decided I wasn't going to shoot in a timely manner so sold it all on, along with the holders and drying racks...

Just got my first Instax camera a few days ago, now waiting on a box of film to try it out. Hoping for good results to shoot casually on vacations and such for the wife's scrapbook :).