4x5 Lens Questions for Small Building Exteriors

[kahudson]

I'm beginning a project to take photos of urban and rural "juke joints" many of which are being abandoned or re-purposed. I am thinking of buying into a 4x5 system (Toyo 45) to do so. In general, these buildings are one or two stories tall and I would be within 10-20 feet of the building. At this point, my focus is just on the exteriors. I obviously would want some negative space or (depending on the situation) some contextual space around the building. However, I do want the image of the building to comprise most of the negative.

1. Do I really need a lot of movements? I may be thinking about this incorrectly, but I would think I would need more movements for larger and taller buildings and less for smaller ones.

2. If I'm trying to take the photos from within about 10-20 feet of relatively small buildings, would a 90mm lens suffice? Or should I go wider to 75mm or longer to 110-120mm?

3. I am hoping to do most of this work with one lens. Is that really feasible?

4. Is the Toyo system of camming lenses workable with the Linhoff system are others? I am looking for something close to universal that should work with a variety of lens/shutters.

Thanks.

[ic-racer]

If you have a camera now you can calculate the angle of view and let that guide your first large format lens.
The amount of vertical lens movement needed to eliminate converging verticals in your photographs would be difficult to estimate; too many variables.
In terms of rangefinder cams, if you intend on using camera movements, ground glass focusing will be your best option.
Any lens can image any building exterior if one has free range of motion around the building. Lenses of differing focal length will aid in dealing with obstacles.

[Noah A]

Toyo cameras, at least the current ones, don't have rangefinders so there is no camming involved. With LF cameras you just need to buy the appropriate lensboard for the camera and for shutter size of the lens.

10-20 feet sounds a bit close, but doable. I do a lot of urban landscape work, and I shoot 90 percent or more of my work with a 120mm lens. In my case this is a 120 Super-Symmar HM, but the 110 SSXL, 115 Grandagon or 120 Super Angulon would all work similarly. I really like the 120mm focal length because it captures a lot of real estate but it still doesn't feel like a 'wide' lens. But at ten feet it might not be wide enough. I also carry a 72mm lens for when I need it, but that's not very often and mostly for interiors, taller buildings or trying to capture a bunch of buildings from close up.

If you really want to stick to one lens, a 90mm might do it--it would get you out of tight situations better than a 120. But it will feel more like a wideangle lens, which you may or may not like.

You didn't mention if you're looking at a field camera or a monorail--Toyo makes both. You won't probably need a ton of movement--mostly front rise, maybe some shift to center your composition, though personally I usually center it by moving the camera when possible. The Toyo field cameras are a bit limited on rise. If you want a field camera you might also consider a Wista metal field camera (like the VX) or a used Linhof Technika. Both have a good amount of rise. Some very wide lenses like 75mm and under may limit your ability to use movements with some field cameras. Just something to think about. With a 110/115/120, you'll likely still get lots of movements out of a field camera.

If you choose a 75mm or shoter, you'll probably be much happier with a monorail camera.

If you have an iphone, check out the viewfinder pro app. It will show you the approximate field of view of various lenses on various camera formats, including 4x5. Or you could cut a 4x5 inch hole in a piece of cardboard and attach a string. Measure the string from where it is attached to the cardboard and mark it at the various focal lengths you're considering. Then hold it up to your eye at the various distances to estimate the field of view of the lenses.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I'm beginning a project to take photos of urban and rural "juke joints" many of which are being abandoned or re-purposed. [...]

If I'm trying to take the photos from within about 10-20 feet of relatively small buildings,

That is an exciting, and truly challenging project. I have found a 47mm F/5.6 Super Angulon and center filter over 4x5 a good choice for certain shots which require no movements. In fact I built a camera just for that purpose. (http://www.digoliardi.net/super-wide-4x5-1.jpg) There are better wide angle lenses of similar focal length. Look to Grandagons. It would be great if you could borrow one (where do you live?)

During a discussion with two friends I worked with on-staff forty years ago I was informed that the look we get with the limitations of such applications today might be unique in the future when digital defeats the limitations of such wide applications, for better or worse. I take it to be a good thing to stick to film for just that reason - it rather time-stamps the view we choose to work with today.

[Terry Christian]

If you have a 35mm camera, you can get an approximation in large format by taking the appropriate focal length and multiplying times 3.

For one to two story buildings, I'd be inclined to say that as long as you have front rise/fall, you'd be fine, but more movements will give you greater versatility.

[Bob Salomon]

No, Linhof, Toyo, Wista cams are not interchanable.

[kahudson]

[..] if you intend on using camera movements, ground glass focusing will be your best option.


Toyo cameras, at least the current ones, don't have rangefinders so there is no camming involved. With LF cameras you just need to buy the appropriate lensboard for the camera and for shutter size of the lens.

I think I misunderstood camming lenses. I think I should have just been referencing lensboards.


10-20 feet sounds a bit close, but doable. I do a lot of urban landscape work, and I shoot 90 percent or more of my work with a 120mm lens. [..] If you really want to stick to one lens, a 90mm might do it--it would get you out of tight situations better than a 120. But it will feel more like a wideangle lens, which you may or may not like.

I may not be estimating this well. Usually, I take photos of people and from a closer distance. However, I was just trying to think about taking photos from a parking lot or across relatively narrow streets.


You didn't mention if you're looking at a field camera or a monorail--Toyo makes both. You won't probably need a ton of movement--mostly front rise, maybe some shift to center your composition, though personally I usually center it by moving the camera when possible. The Toyo field cameras are a bit limited on rise. If you want a field camera you might also consider a Wista metal field camera (like the VX) or a used Linhof Technika.

I'm not wedded to Toyo. I saw some used versions on KEH. A couple of years ago, a photography instructor mentioned it as useful for someone starting out in large format. I will certainly look at others available although a Technika might be a bit out of my league at this point.


If you have an iphone, check out the viewfinder pro app. It will show you the approximate field of view of various lenses on various camera formats, including 4x5.

I downloaded the app and will take it to a few sites over the next few days. Thanks!


That is an exciting, and truly challenging project. I have found a 47mm F/5.6 Super Angulon and center filter over 4x5 a good choice for certain shots which require no movements. In fact I built a camera just for that purpose. (http://www.digoliardi.net/super-wide-4x5-1.jpg) There are better wide angle lenses of similar focal length. Look to Grandagons. It would be great if you could borrow one (where do you live?)

It looks cool, but that seems like it would be really wide! I'm not sure that's what I'm going for in terms of a final image. I live in Jackson, MS, but go to New Orleans relatively frequently.


If you have a 35mm camera, you can get an approximation in large format by taking the appropriate focal length and multiplying times 3. For one to two story buildings, I'd be inclined to say that as long as you have front rise/fall, you'd be fine, but more movements will give you greater versatility.

I thought an equivalent to a 24mm or 28mm lens (for a 36x24 frame) would be useful. The closest equivalents for 4x5 should be 75mm, 80mm and 90mm lenses. However, the images I saw on Flickr that met those parameters just looked wider to me. At any rate, this isn't like 35mm, where I can rent these things and try them out so I really appreciate the help.

[Terry Christian]

In that case, I'd suggest starting with about a 90mm and working up or down from there. On 4x5, 90 is a common standard for wide angle, and 135-150 is the normal focal length.

[Kirk Gittings]

In that case, I'd suggest starting with about a 90mm and working up or down from there. On 4x5, 90 is a common standard for wide angle, and 135-150 is the normal focal length.

90 is the common standard for architecture too.

[Mark Sampson]

When I photographed building facades (including some music clubs) in New Orleans, I used a 121mm lens most. But to repeat Mr. Gittings' comment, a 90 would be equally useful; I think a 75 is a special-purpose lens. William Christenberry's studies of juke joints were taken from farther away, and he likely used a 'normal' lens.

[Alan Gales]

It can be a little difficult to compare 35mm camera lenses to 4x5 camera lenses. To me a 90mm lens seems more like a 25mm lens on a 35mm camera then a 75mm does. The 75mm just seems too wide.

Where do you live? Advertise on this forum that you are starting out in 4x5 and if there is anyone who lives close that can help. There are a lot of nice people on here who would be glad to let you look through their lenses. Buy them a beer and you may make a new friend for life. :)

[kahudson]

When I photographed building facades (including some music clubs) in New Orleans, I used a 121mm lens most. But to repeat Mr. Gittings' comment, a 90 would be equally useful; I think a 75 is a special-purpose lens. William Christenberry's studies of juke joints were taken from farther away, and he likely used a 'normal' lens.

Thanks for the mention of William Christenberry's work! I haven't even started looking at what previous people have done other than remembering similar work that Walker Evans had done.

Also, in response to an earlier question, I think I would prefer a field camera since I will be taking photos on-site. (Actually, I would love the non-folding compact view cameras like those made by Ebony, but I know that is way too expensive for me.)

Again, thanks everyone!

[Jim Andrada]

A 90mm lens on a Crown/Super Graphic can be very nice indeed - and work with a viewfinder if desired. Although I use my 100mm Wide Field Ektar a lot more than my 90mm Super Angulon. Two story buildings from across the street are usually OK with either, as long as they don't have steeples.

[kahudson]

Initially, I considered Crown/Speed/Super Graphics, but apparently they have limited movements and architecture requires more than other photographic genres. My biggest concern has been movements, how much I need and how much particular combinations of lenses and cameras offer. It's just fairly unfamiliar. Someone actually suggested that I rent a tilt-shift lens for the Canon system that I have just to get the hang of it. Otherwise, I kind of like the concept of the Graphics.

[Bob Salomon]

Some very, very basic view camera movement information.
If you need to control the shape of your object you have two choices:
1 - direct displacements. This means a level camera and lots of rise/fall/shift in front and back and a lens that will let you do that.
2 - indirect displacements. That means that you need to be able to tilt or/and swing your camera back so it is perpendicular to your subject.

Using either of these will eliminate keystoning.
3 - if you need to control the plane of sharp focus you tilt and/or swing either the lens or the back. But remember. When you do that with back movements you change the shape of the subject.

That automatically eliminates a Graphic and other cameras without full back movements unless you are willing to make a lot of compromises after processing the shot which are never as good as doing it in camera. It also eliminates T/S lenses as they are tilting the lens and not the back. The perspective control lenses sold for medium format and 35mm and DSLrs let you shift the camera up or down but not always by enough and most of these lenses cost as much, or more then a camera that can do back movements with any lens.

If architecture is what you want to do then don't waste time and money. Get a camera capable of doing the required movements and able to handle the focal length lenses you will want to use for architecture, or anything else you want to do.

[Alan Gales]

Bob's right. You need a camera that fits your needs.

Sinar is probably the best bang for your buck in monorails if you live in the U.S. A Sinar P or the lighter F2 will do everything you need.

[Jac@stafford.net]

If your lens had a small enough diameter and all you need is a little rise, you could whip up a lens board with the lens offset to provide rise.

[jp]

I'm always one to pipe up and recommend a speed graphic (and tiltall) for many uses. But in this case, it wouldn't be ideal. The speed does have good rise, but if you use a contemporary 90mm lens, with the big cone that recesses into the camera (like a nikon 90 4.5 sw), the recessed part will hit the bellows and limit your movements before the camera will. A used Sinar monorail would be easily resold for what you've got into it and has many accessories.

[Leigh]

If you want to carry only one lens, choose the shortest focal length that will work with your camera.

If its coverage is too wide in a particular situation, you can always crop the image.

However, if coverage is too narrow, you cannot add information fell outside the negative.

- Leigh

[kahudson]

Thanks again, everyone! I have decided on 90mm to start and will look into the Sinar F2.

[Professional]

That is a great choice, i have 72mm and didn't use it yet, because i live in a nice house that i can work a lot of interior and i need very wide lens, i also have 150mm and i tested it inside the house and it was too narrow or no much room for what i want, i am sure the next lenses i will have definitely 90mm will be one of them.