Problems with Photo-Flo

[Ari]

My last two batches of 8x10 film show dried Photo-Flo bubbles, leaving a residue on my film.
This has only started happening very recently, and I wanted to see if the commentariat might have the solution (pun intended :)).
Thanks in advance.

Procedure using a Jobo 3005 on rotary base:
I wash the film, then fill the tank with water completely, add 1/3 of a cap of Photo-Flo.
The tank goes back on the base for one minute's rotation, then I take the film out.
I hang each sheet on a Jobo clip by one corner, so that the film hangs at an angle.
Some sheets have a lot of bubbly Photo-Flo when hung up, some don't.
The drying room (bathroom) is always pre-steamed for dust and such.

Is it the agitation? Too much concentrate or not enough? Expired Photo-Flo (is there such a thing?)?
My method hasn't changed at all, but the results have, and it's bloody annoying, to say the least.


Here's a photo of the result with a particularly bad sheet:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7328/9648425115_643b3e8b18_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zsari/9648425115/)
Laurent199-Editb (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zsari/9648425115/) by Ari4000 (http://www.flickr.com/people/zsari/), on Flickr

[bobwysiwyg]

Have you always done it this way and this just started recently? I only shoot 35mm and 4×5 but I never agitate Photo Flo. I just let the film sit in it for a few seconds then hang.

[Keith Pitman]

You should not agitate Photo Flo. That makes bubbles. Just let the film stand in the solution for 30 seconds and then drip dry.

[Jan Pedersen]

Even better, use Edwal's LFN. Much less bubbles, foam and other unwanted artifacts. A few drops in one liter is enough unless you have real hard water. I always use wetting agent with distilled water.

[jp]

You could likely do with less photoflo concentrate.

My solution.. Final rinse in distilled water. I have a bottle of alcohol (Walmart 91% isopropyl) with a pinhole in the safety seal. I squirt each negative when I hang it up. It also breaks the surface tensions and dries fast.

[Jim Andrada]

Hi Ari

I put about the smallest amount that will flow (pun also intended) in the cap and put a few drops at most into an 8x10 or 11 x 14 tray of water (sometimes distilled if I remember in time). Negs go in for maybe 30 seconds each and I squeegee them between my fingers and hang. I try to not use that tray for anything else to avoid contamination. For 120 I dip the reels into the cut off bottom of a milk jug for a few seconds and wash the heck out of the reels before re-using them I would never put the Photo-Flo into a Jobo tank let alone rotate the tank on the machine.

[ic-racer]

Put the Photo-flo in a tray and dip each washed negative in it. Only takes a few seconds to get the negative soapy, then hang to dry. The bubbles should drain off.

[jeroldharter]

Sounds like you are doing everything wrong! don't use photo-flo in a Jobo drum first of all.

After you fix the film in the drum, use hypo clear (that's what I do but some would say it is unnecessary) or fill the 3005 with water. Then wash the negatives in a proper film washer (I use an Inglis). Then remove each negative and gently dip it in a tray of photo flo and hang dry in a dust proof area. Don't agitate photo-flo as it is a weak soap solution and will bubble up, hence your bubble artifacts on your negs.

[Martin Dake]

add 1/3 of a cap of Photo-Flo.

I don't know how big the cap is but that just sounds like way too much.
A couple of drops is all that is needed and like others have said, do not agitate

[Ari]

Hi everybody,
Thank you all for the responses, I'll take everyone's advice.
A tray with distilled water and a few drops of Photo-Flo, no agitation, and hang up to dry.
This didn't happen previously, to answer a question above.

Thanks again!

[jnantz]

it only takes a few drops of foroflo ...
you can put in your tank then pull your film through it
hang it up and you're done
i usullyput a few drips i. an open tray with film in it
im not sure why the instructions on the bottle suggest
such high concentrations, seems even a fraction of that
is a trip down trouble street

[SergeiR]

i just go with few drops per 260ml, but i do agitate (its rotary process), then i just spash sheet with your typical tap water and let it hang in dryer. Seems to work so far. But once i am done with current supply of photo flo i am going to much more economical solution that is kinda yet to be tested, but i found it in book i do trust.

[photobymike]

Ari i am a big fan of your photography..... nice portrait by the way.......

on larger negatives i wash or rinse after photoflo.....Oh yea use less ....mix by just a few drops in a gallon of water ....i have had the same bottle for years and years... that stuff is sticky it stays on anything it touches.... by the way dont use it in your tanks..... it will cause your developer to foam.... and cause uneven development.... i see it a lot here on LF.... but washing or rinse the photoflo will not negate the good that the pflo does.... in fact you will see it works better if you do this ..... stabilizer does the same thing.... dont expose tanks or reels to pflo use in a dedicated pflo tray that you use for nothing else.....The only way i have been able to get pflo off my reels is to use 50/50 mix of water and pool acid.....be careful!!!! dont get on your skin and rinse carefully .... do outside ...i used a hose and stood back so i did not splash on me

[frotog]

4cc per gallon of distilled H2O has always worked for me.

[Jim Noel]

Photo Flo should NEVER be put in a tank. Over time it will build up, act as a catalyst and cause over-development in strange places. I don't know how to get it out of a 3005 tank. smaller ones can be rinsed several times with hot water and scrubbed. I would be concerned that hot water might cause some of the glue used in making Expert tanks might loosen.

[Ari]

Thank you all again, this has been enlightening to say the least.
I was not aware that Photo-Flo could cause problems in a tank, so I will discontinue its use in all of the Jobo tanks I have.
And a proper film washer might be on the horizon as well, since I have a home-made tube thingy for washing film, but it likely doesn't work at 100% efficiency.

Again, thanks for all your comments, I am relatively new to the Expert tanks, but I was not aware of all the caveats.

[Roger Cole]

One thing - the residue left on your negatives by the way you are doing it now will probably wash off pretty easily. Just rewash and dry using your new procedure.

[bob carnie]

1/3 cap is too much , also I would not be putting the photo flow in the tank.

I use a small tray, with distilled water and small amount of the photo flow.

wash negs a normal then put film into tray, after about a minute I lift by corner and let excess run off on angle then hang,

looks like too much frothing and bubbles are attaching to your film.

[Tin Can]

I mix Kodak Photo-Flo gently, to make no bubbles, at the specified 1/200 exactly and put my films in for 15 seconds and then a momentary wash. I don't squeegee.

[Roger Cole]

I mix half strength (Freestyle's house brand but I'm pretty sure it's identical) and I'm not at all sure that still isn't too strong. If I mix per bottle directions I too always get drying marks. YMMV of course.

[Tin Can]

I'm going to go to 1/400, as it is frothy, I call it soap. Especially when teaching first timers, they get confused pretty quickly. I need to make signs with directions, as some of these people have CRS and need hand holding even after 10 times.


I mix half strength (Freestyle's house brand but I'm pretty sure it's identical) and I'm not at all sure that still isn't too strong. If I mix per bottle directions I too always get drying marks. YMMV of course.

[Roger Cole]

"Meant to be" or not, my own results are better if I mix it half strength. I ALWAYS get drying marks, no matter how careful I am, if i mix it per the bottle. So I should deny my own experience and continue getting marks on my negatives just because the bottle tells me to do it a certain way? "Hey, I followed the manufacturer's instructions and my negatives are overdeveloped, what should I do?" "Develop less, start with maybe 15% less." "But I can't, the instructions say..."

[Tin Can]

Roger, I'm listening!

What I love about wet, is everybody says you must test everything for yourself, safe lights, chems, temps, film storage, lenses, bellows, holders, lighting, shutter speeds...

What did I miss?

About 100 other variables.


"Meant to be" or not, my own results are better if I mix it half strength. I ALWAYS get drying marks, no matter how careful I am, if i mix it per the bottle. So I should deny my own experience and continue getting marks on my negatives just because the bottle tells me to do it a certain way? "Hey, I followed the manufacturer's instructions and my negatives are overdeveloped, what should I do?" "Develop less, start with maybe 15% less." "But I can't, the instructions say..."

[Roger Cole]

Roger, I'm listening!

What I love about wet, is everybody says you must test everything for yourself, safe lights, chems, temps, film storage, lenses, bellows, holders, lighting, shutter speeds...

What did I miss?

About 100 other variables.

That comment was actually addressed to Greg's comment above about it being meant to be mixed 200:1. Sorry for any confusion.

[Tin Can]

No worries.

I can be kinda dense, you know transparent on paper. Bad film pun.


That comment was actually addressed to Greg's comment above about it being meant to be mixed 200:1. Sorry for any confusion.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I don't know how big the cap is but that just sounds like way too much.
A couple of drops is all that is needed and like others have said, do not agitate

Photoflow 200 is named for its recommended dilution - 1 part Photoflow to 200 parts water. If you make the final rinse with Photoflow in distilled water you can use a greater dilution.

[Roger Cole]

Hum, that's interesting - I wonder if the (now ages old) Kodak recommendation is also based on the use of a squeegee? That might make sense of them.

[John Olsen]

I haven't had much luck with only a few drops of photo-flo, but I use about half of what Kodak recommends, just enough to make a few bubbles on the surface when I agitate the film in a hanger. (I tray develop and then do final stages in hangers and tanks.) Since you didn't experience problems before, I wonder if your water supply has changed. Between you and the well the supplier could have any number of treatment processes, and they vary with time. (I know the water character changes here because I read the annual reports.)
Good luck

[jeroldharter]

i just go with few drops per 260ml, but i do agitate (its rotary process), then i just spash sheet with your typical tap water and let it hang in dryer. Seems to work so far. But once i am done with current supply of photo flo i am going to much more economical solution that is kinda yet to be tested, but i found it in book i do trust.

When you are finished with the rotary process, remove the film and dip each sheet in the photoflo solution. Don't then rinse in water or you defeat the purpose of photoflo.

Few solutions are cheaper than photoflo. Not sure what you have in mind.

[tgtaylor]

Well, shoot, since everyone else has responded I might as well as throw in my 2 bits too!

1. When I rotary process I never put photoflo in the processor. Even Jobo warns not too! Instead I mix 1 liter at 1:200 (5mL of Photoflo to 1000mL of water) and carefullypour it into a tray and then insert the sheets (4x5 and 8x10) for 1.5 minutes. I squeegee the 4x5 but not the 8x10 - they're too big for that. No drying marks or scum appear on the dry negatives.

2. When processing 35mm and 120 by hand inversion, I put 2 or 3 drops of photoflo in the tank when 1/2 full and then fill it to the top after which I agitate once or twice to mix and leave still for 1.5 minutes and then squeegee. As in the above, never experienced drying marks or scum.

For me the main difference in the two methods is that I can reuse the solution in 1 above 3 or 4 times before discarding whereas in the 2d I dump after single use. IIRC, Kodak warns not to use too strong a solution as it will cause those scum marks.

Incidentally, this weekend I was at a local retailer looking for a lens cap for my 400mm Pentax 67 lens (an unexpected gust of wind blew it into the SF bay!) and noticed that Kodak Photoflo now has a new packaging.

Thomas

[Jim Andrada]

I think from now on I'm actually going to stop dropping the reels into the Photo-Flo and just run the 120 film though it from hand to hand. I really worry about contaminating the reels and causing problems down the road, but I've gotten a bit lazy - have to clean up my act! Sheet film as I said goes into a tray.

[Lenny Eiger]

I leave my film in the photoflow for three minutes. It's a miracle - the stuff actually works!

These days I use the stuff from Formulary...

Lenny

[SergeiR]

When you are finished with the rotary process, remove the film and dip each sheet in the photoflo solution. Don't then rinse in water or you defeat the purpose of photoflo.

Few solutions are cheaper than photoflo. Not sure what you have in mind.

meh.. xray easily scratches, and i never get spots with way how i do it at the moment ;) So why change thing that works.

As of solution - Joy dishwasher liquid suppose to work just as well.

[invisibleflash]

My last two batches of 8x10 film show dried Photo-Flo bubbles, leaving a residue on my film.
This has only started happening very recently, and I wanted to see if the commentariat might have the solution (pun intended :)).
Thanks in advance.

Procedure using a Jobo 3005 on rotary base:
I wash the film, then fill the tank with water completely, add 1/3 of a cap of Photo-Flo.
The tank goes back on the base for one minute's rotation, then I take the film out.
I hang each sheet on a Jobo clip by one corner, so that the film hangs at an angle.
Some sheets have a lot of bubbly Photo-Flo when hung up, some don't.
The drying room (bathroom) is always pre-steamed for dust and such.

Is it the agitation? Too much concentrate or not enough? Expired Photo-Flo (is there such a thing?)?
My method hasn't changed at all, but the results have, and it's bloody annoying, to say the least.


Here's a photo of the result with a particularly bad sheet:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7328/9648425115_643b3e8b18_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zsari/9648425115/)
Laurent199-Editb (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zsari/9648425115/) by Ari4000 (http://www.flickr.com/people/zsari/), on Flickr

Nice toning, what did you use?

[Ari]

Thanks for all the comments, and for dissecting this mundane but important problem in the usual thorough fashion.
I will change my Photo-Flo habits and report back if nothing changes.

ILMVC, thank you, the toning was done in LR5, using only the shadow channel; the tone itself was 43 on both the horizontal and vertical axis of the LR5 tone map.
Being new to LR, I am quickly beginning to appreciate the use of LR5 in places where CS6 is weak or slower to apply, and vice versa.

[Leigh]

put my films in for 15 seconds and then a momentary wash. I don't squeegee.
That momentary wash is completely defeating the PhotoFlo.

It's soap. Its purpose is to reduce the surface tension of the water, allowing it to drain off rather than bead.

By washing after the PhotoFlo, you've destroyed its surface tension reduction, just as though you had not used it at all.

- Leigh

[Tin Can]

OK, I'll try it without.

I'm not having problems.

Thanks!


That momentary wash is completely defeating the PhotoFlo.

It's soap. Its purpose is to reduce the surface tension of the water, allowing it to drain off rather than bead.

By washing after the PhotoFlo, you've destroyed its surface tension reduction, just as though you had not used it at all.

- Leigh

[ROL]

Don't use Photo-Flo unless it is necessary. Then, there will be no worries about concentration and technique. I don't, and never have used it on sheet film because it is unnecessary and without positive benefit in my lab. Final distilled rinse, and hang by corner to dry in the open. I do however use it on 120 rolls in my isolated controlled drying apparatus (e.g., hanging wardrobe bag).

[AtlantaTerry]

With 35mm and 120 roll films developed on stainless steel reels in stainless steel tanks I never had a problem dipping the reels into a working solution of Kodak PhotoFlo then hanging to dry. (I'm going to get yelled at for saying this, but...) Finally I dip my first and index fingers into the PhotoFlo and with one quick motion using GENTLE almost non-existent pressure move my fingers from the top of the roll to the bottom. One time. ONLY. I learned the technique back in the '60s when I was a newspaper photographer to help film dry quicker. This works because by the time I have developed the film my fingers are soft and have no oils on the skin. The quick motion from top to bottom causes waves of fluid on the base and emulsion sides which sweeps everything to the bottom. I use spring-powered wood clothes pins at the top and bottom of the rolls. Unlike metal or plastic IMHO the wood swells when it gets wet and firmly grips the film. What can I say, it's worked for me for over 50 years!

For 4x5 sheet film, I dunk my Kodak #4A racks into a mix of Steam Distilled water + PhotoFlo that is in a 108 ounce plastic tub only used for this one purpose. Then I hang the racks to drip dry from one corner. Years ago I used a wire clothes line, these days I use a small gauge plastic rope that I knotted every couple inches to act as a stop if the racks want to slide around.
101706

After all the racks are hanging I go to the first one and work my way to the last. I gently move my fingers that are still wet with PhotoFlo down the three perforated sides of the racks. Capillary action causes a lot of the fluid to move from between the metal and film to my fingers. I then go to the corner of the rack that is lowest and gently pinch the corner until I no longer feel fluid flowing onto my fingers. Then I move to the next rack and repeat the procedure. By touching the racks to encourage the fluid to move onto my fingers this helps speed up drying time ... somewhat.

After the roll film is hung and/or the sheet film racks are cleared of film, I give the stainless steel hardware a good rinse with hot water in order to remove any remnants of PhotoFlo.

[Leigh]

With 35mm and 120 roll films developed on stainless steel reels in stainless steel tanks I never had a problem dipping the reels into a working solution of Kodak PhotoFlo then hanging to dry. (I'm going to get yelled at for saying this, but...) Finally I dip my first and index fingers into the PhotoFlo and with one quick motion using GENTLE almost non-existent pressure move my fingers from the top of the roll to the bottom. One time. ONLY. I learned the technique back in the '60s when I was a newspaper photographer to help film dry quicker.
I do the same thing, also learned in the early 60s doing newspaper stuff. I think it was standard procedure then.

Works fine.

- Leigh

[Roger Cole]

I do the same with the fingers dipped on wetting agent. I've never scratched film this way. With a little care it works.

I imagine SS reels would suffer much less from sticky wetting agent but I'm careful not to get it on my plastic Jobo reels.

[Trenchleton]

I'm just now starting in LF but with 120 and 35 what I've always done is hang the film after the last wash, then pour a working solution of photoflo down either side, and I've never had trouble.

[Jim Galli]

On EBaY, buy some sodium hexametaphosphate. Calgon. I always do my final wash with a pinch of sodium hexametaphosphate, then I pour it out of the 3005 into a tray and add a tiny bit of photo-flo to the water with the Calgon in it. Take the negs out of the tank and give them a swish in the tray, and never have spots, even in the hard - ish desert water.

[Ari]

Ahoy-hoy, OP here.
I did as was recommended by the fine people here, and the bubbles/drying marks have disappeared.
I'm still not sure why they appeared in the first place, but the problem has been resolved.
Thank you all.