View Full Version : Dry Plates (handmade) - Tips & Tricks, Experiences & Examples . . .
I would be interested in learning about the production of handmade Dry Plates (or variations). If anyone would like to share their tips & tricks, or post examples of prints created from handmade Dry Plates, please do.
I recently noticed that all of my cameras were designed to be used with Dry Plates. After some years of using standard film, X-ray film, and paper negatives, it was time to try something different and far more challenging. Wet Plate sounds interesting, but at this time I don't want to be tied to coating plates on-the-spot. After a fair amount of web research I ordered some Liquid Light, and last weekend I coated my very first 8x10 plates. I was surprised at the results.
My very first try resulted in the emulsion on both 8x10 plates floating off somewhere between the developer tray and the stop bath tray. I can see now that providing a good substrate for the emulsion is important. With some research I went with Minwax Fast-Drying Polyurethane, clear/gloss. I cleaned and dried the plates, and sprayed on a thin layer of Polyurethane. After what I thought was ample drying time, I coated the plates with the emulsion. I suspect more drying time was required, as islands of small bubbles appeared in the dried emulsion. I now suspect that the Polyurethane outgassed to create the bubbles. But, I'm learning. Rating the new plates at ASA 1 was just about perfect. And yesterday I coated my first set of six half-plates (4.75x6.5). They are going to spend the next 24 hours in the homemade drying cabinet. I'll post images as they become available.
I would also be interested in learning of ways to apply the emulsion. At this point I have found it necessary to use the old finger to move the emulsion around. I have considered using a brush, but hairs in the emulsion would be a concern.
Dann
don12x20
30-Aug-2013, 10:07
Have you been to Denise's site? Although she's moved on to flexible Estar film base, she was an early developer of techniques for dry plate production.
http://www.thelightfarm.com/
Have you been to Denise's site? Although she's moved on to flexible Estar film base, she was an early developer of techniques for dry plate production.
http://www.thelightfarm.com/
Thank you for the reference to Denise's site.
hi dannL
i regularly make dry plates ( since about 1986? )
and while i USED TO put a sub agent onto my plates
over the last year i have stopped. the minwax will yellow and give troubles
you can use gelatin ( either hard bloom from the formulary or food grade )
put alum hardener into the gelatin.
if you go without a sub ... get a cold stone into your darkspace you coat your plates.
wash the plates so the water SHEETS OFF and dry them ...
when you pour/flow your emulsion have it set-up on the cold stone.
you won'thave the emulsion fall off the plate. use a strong developer, not warm.
and use a hardened fixer.
denise's site is great, have fun !
john
Thanks John!
I read elsewhere that as the emulsion cures on the plate that it's speed may gradually increase. I'm curious what I could expect with between a week and several weeks to a month of curing? Granted, that may be a question that is too specific.
not sure dannL .. speed and contrast increase usually happens.
i have shot plates that were made with 5 or 15year old liquid light
and they were contrasty and fast ...
i currently have a handful of plates that i coated in may? that i haven't had a chance to shoot
( school vacation &al.)
i plan on shooting them soon i'll let you know.
they aren't on glass but black metal to make ferrotypes ...
have fun !
john
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Bubbles from the 8x10's in the first batch. I'm suspecting the Polyurethane substrate caused these. But, I could be wrong.
maybe ..
just remember hand coated plates aren't going to be perfect ..
there may be "flaws" some folks not like imperfections
i don't mind them ...
bubbles are annoying though ...
FYI
i have a little glass jar i pour my liquid emulsion into and pour my plates from
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Bubbles from the 8x10's in the first batch. I'm suspecting the Polyurethane substrate caused these. But, I could be wrong.
Interesting thread, those bubbles seem too localized to be out gassing, unless those areas had thicker pools of poly.
This next batch of half-plates should help me isolate the cause of the bubbles. I gave them a full 24 hours in a ventilated drying box. If they are still there . . . I might try the gelatin/alum route.
jon.oman
31-Aug-2013, 17:09
Interesting!
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Coated six half-plates the other day, five of which appear to be free of bubbles. The sixth plate (print above) was used for exposure testing because it had at least four large bubbles in the emulsion. I guess I was in a hurry and missed them. But, I am pleased with the results. The stakes are much higher now. :cool:
Half-Plate (4.75"x6.5") glass; spray coated with Minwax Fast-Drying Polyurethane, clear/gloss
24 hours cure time
Coated with Liquid Light
24 hours cure time
Half-Plate Field camera w/R. H. McBean Lens (Rapid type)
Exposure: 8 Seconds @ f/32
Plate developed in Dektol 1:2, 1.5 minutes
Contact printed on Kodak Polycontrast III RC (F) glossy 5x7
Kodak PolyMax filter #5
Print developed in Dektol 1:2, 1.5 minutes
Thanks John!
I read elsewhere that as the emulsion cures on the plate that it's speed may gradually increase. I'm curious what I could expect with between a week and several weeks to a month of curing? Granted, that may be a question that is too specific.
it might peel off and die. Which is exactly what happened to 4 of my plates when i left them sitting for about 2 months (was traveling)
it might peel off and die. Which is exactly what happened to 4 of my plates when i left them sitting for about 2 months (was traveling)
Did you prepare the plates with some form of substrate, or was it emulsion applied directly to the glass?
+
Now that I recall all of those plate cameras that I've parted with over the years . . . I wish that I had kept them. :(
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Some sample prints from the latest batch of plates. The last image is a close-up crop (scan) from the print of the brick wall.
Exposure: 8 seconds @ f/32 ; Bright sunny daylight conditions. Half-Plate Field camera, and a lens cap. Contact printed on Kodak paper.
Things learned:
Carrying glass plates really adds to the weight of the old camera bag.
Bubbles in the emulsions can be a problem.
Printing is a breeze. Just lay the plate negative on the printing paper. Expose as required.
Scanning plate negatives can be problematic, encouraging printing.
The adventure continues. I purchased a food warming tray to warm the plates when coating. After coating two 8x10 plates the other evening, and inspecting the dried plates last evening . . . I believe the puzzle with bubbles in the emulsion has been solved.
Very interesting.
Good lessons!
I forgot about this thread that we started on Dry Plates. I need to stay on the ball.
Here's a hybrid image of sorts, taken from a plate in my latest batch. I doubt if I'll be printing this particular plate, since an experiment to clip the corners of the plate went somewhat awry. After that I think the plate lost much of it's appeal. But, it still made for a good test.
I made eleven of these plates in the same batch, trying to maintain uniformity. The plate used to create the image here turned out to be free of bubbles for the most part. The addition of Photo-Flo to the emulsion appears to have helped quite a bit. I don't recall the specific amount of Photo-Flo added to the mix, but it wasn't very much.
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Sands & Hunter Exhibition 5x4
R. J. Beck 5x4 Rect. 7 inch
Dry-Plate, ISO 1, f/30, 8 second exp., Dektol
On the side; I'm currently working on a different "rapid method" for subbing the plates. The process, if it pans out, will use Polystyrene as the subbing agent, and should take just a few seconds per plate. Fingers are crossed.
So, how "is" the Dry Plate community doing? Busy as bees making plates . . . I must imagine.
stawastawa
12-May-2014, 15:39
Wonderful recent image!
I sure am enjoying hearing of the adventure and process!
David R Munson
12-May-2014, 18:27
Looking forward to seeing more of this, really wanting to do dry plate stuff in the next few years.
Brassai
12-May-2014, 18:39
I've been thinking of trying dry plate for the past year. I like the look of plates but don't think wet plate is practical for the cold clime I live in. In the "good old days," wouldn't the ISO speed be much higher than ISO 1?
Wonderful recent image!
I sure am enjoying hearing of the adventure and process!
Looking forward to seeing more of this, really wanting to do dry plate stuff in the next few years.
I sense that there's oodles of interest out there, but few practitioners. Dry plate as I am practicing it has fulfilled many of my wishes for a convenient "handmade plate". It took me quite a while to actually go from "contemplating" to actually "making plates" also. Now that I look back, it was quite a hurdle to jump. But, now it's second nature. I would be thrilled to see more folks jump on the bandwagon. But just to advise . . . this bandwagon has nobody in the driver's seat. :-)
I've been thinking of trying dry plate for the past year. I like the look of plates but don't think wet plate is practical for the cold clime I live in. In the "good old days," wouldn't the ISO speed be much higher than ISO 1?
I'm sure manufactured plates were perty speedy at one time. I would have to further my research to find accurate ASA/ISO speeds. I'll see what I can find.
For myself, I find a speed of 1 works very well since I use the lens cap and a stop-watch for timing exposures. I actually prefer exposures to be 2 seconds or longer. That way I can time them accurately.
I sense that there's oodles of interest out there, but few practitioners. Dry plate as I am practicing it has fulfilled many of my wishes for a convenient "handmade plate". It took me quite a while to actually go from "contemplating" to actually "making plates" also. Now that I look back, it was quite a hurdle to jump. But, now it's second nature. I would be thrilled to see more folks jump on the bandwagon. But just to advise . . . this bandwagon has nobody in the driver's seat. :-)
Perhaps not, but I'd like to think I've drawn up a few star charts. Nice to see someone else working the medium.
d
Perhaps not, but I'd like to think I've drawn up a few star charts. Nice to see someone else working the medium.
d Denise, I hope you realize that your work, and your published findings, will "without a doubt" be the foundation for much of my dry plate work. I have frequented your web-site many times, looking for information on the process. And I just wanted to say "Thank You".
David R Munson
13-May-2014, 06:37
I sense that there's oodles of interest out there, but few practitioners. Dry plate as I am practicing it has fulfilled many of my wishes for a convenient "handmade plate". It took me quite a while to actually go from "contemplating" to actually "making plates" also. Now that I look back, it was quite a hurdle to jump. But, now it's second nature. I would be thrilled to see more folks jump on the bandwagon. But just to advise . . . this bandwagon has nobody in the driver's seat. :-)
I'd be all for attempting to take the helm if I had (or had access to) a darkroom currently. Hell, right now I don't even have a view camera (which feels weird to type, but it's just a temporary state). The next couple of years will bring the needed location changes and equipment additions.
I will also say, though, that part of my interest is with shooting tiny dry plates using the cut film holders I have for my Hasselblad. The pressure plate is removable specifically for use with glass plates. So...cute little squares of homemade dry-plate goodness? I'm down for that, and may even be able to find a way to make that work in my apartment.
Those Hasselblad holders should accommodate a 6x6 plate . . . is that correct? I had considered making a sub-miniature plate camera. That, I thought, would be a fun and interesting project.
I've been thinking of trying dry plate for the past year. I like the look of plates but don't think wet plate is practical for the cold clime I live in. In the "good old days," wouldn't the ISO speed be much higher than ISO 1?
Here's a web site (http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/meters.html#Plate%20and%20Film%20Speed%20Calibrations) that has some information at the bottom of the page, plus charts for the various plate speeds. Now if I can find some plate advertisements that mention these speeds, I think we'll be in business.
David R Munson
13-May-2014, 19:04
Those Hasselblad holders should accommodate a 6x6 plate . . . is that correct? I had considered making a sub-miniature plate camera. That, I thought, would be a fun and interesting project.
Yes, 6x6cm plates. Right now I have them loaded with squares of tech pan (exp 1996) I cut off a roll.
I've been thinking of trying dry plate for the past year. I like the look of plates but don't think wet plate is practical for the cold clime I live in. In the "good old days," wouldn't the ISO speed be much higher than ISO 1?
Well, I didn't need to go very far to find some plate speeds . . . . http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_F13.html
Combined with the speed charts from the previous page, we can get an idea of some plate speeds that were available. Ilford Ordinary plate appears to be about 11 or 12 ASA, and the Special Rapid maybe around 19 ASA. One Ilford plate there looks like it was a speedy 64 ASA.
http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/meters.html#Plate%20and%20Film%20Speed%20Comparisons (http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/meters.html#Plate%20and%20Film%20Speed%20Comparisons)
Yes, 6x6cm plates. Right now I have them loaded with squares of tech pan (exp 1996) I cut off a roll.
If you were to coat plates I assume you will be using glass. I just recalled that years ago I had boxes of 2"x2" slide glass . . . Like This on Ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Faultless-Slide-Glass-100-Pieces-2-x-2-inches-by-Hornstein-Photo-Sales-/131183812254?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e8b2a1e9e)
That would be very convenient if they fit the holders.
David R Munson
13-May-2014, 19:28
So close but they'd be just a bit too small. But yes, glass plates are the plan, though I guess I could always shoot tiny tintypes as well.
So close but they'd be just a bit too small. But yes, glass plates are the plan, though I guess I could always shoot tiny tintypes as well.
According to Wikipedia - Film Formats, a "ninth-plate" tintype was 2×2½. So, that's not too far off. This is getting interesting. Now I might try coating a microscope slide cover. Haaaa! ~ 21mm x 21mm
Printed from one of my early 8x10 hand-coated plates. Originally exposured with the Anthony & Scovill Champion / R. D. Gray Periscope No. 6. The pumpkin resembles perty much how I feel when I wake up in the morning.
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Brassai
14-May-2014, 11:05
The Rolleiflex also has a kit back that uses holders for cut film. I'm guessing you could get one of those and do 6x9 plates, but haven't actually seen the holders.
Thanks for the info on historic plate speeds. I figured they had to be higher than ISO 1 because shutters were becomming very popular around 1895 with speeds of 1/100s and faster. It would be cool to make ISO 25 dry plates.
The Rolleiflex also has a kit back that uses holders for cut film. I'm guessing you could get one of those and do 6x9 plates, but haven't actually seen the holders.
Thanks for the info on historic plate speeds. I figured they had to be higher than ISO 1 because shutters were becoming very popular around 1895 with speeds of 1/100s and faster. It would be cool to make ISO 25 dry plates.
Something to consider . . . A fast lens might make up for a slower emulsion. But that really depends on the subject matter and lighting you choose. The fastest lens I have for the 8x10 is f/4.7. I really should give it a try with a plate.
I think Denise has made some faster emulsions. You might want to give her a shout.
Tin Can
14-May-2014, 13:12
I have 2 different 'Type A' Mamiya 6x9 plate holders. The plastic DDS's fit everything. I recently bought the all metal SSD NOS ones in the pictures and have no idea what they fit. I bought them without checking and while they are very nice, they fit nothing I have...
However the SSD's have the same 6x9 film adapters as the DDS's and the dark slides also fit, so all is not lost.
I also have a few Mamiya C33 plate holders, but they are poor copies of Rolex I believe and I don't have the correct C33 back conversion.
I am getting better at glass cutting, smaller is harder.
Now to start coating some glass.
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Cutting your own glass adds value (blood, sweat, tears, & more blood) to the final product. In fact, I got a nice little sliver in the thumb the other day, as I smooth off the edges of the plates with a sharpening stone. But, all of that work I think of as "Snap-shot Prevention". At present it still takes me about 48 hours to produce a batch of plates for one of the cameras. Sometime longers, depending. 99% of that time of course, is spent waiting for the substrate and then the emulsion to dry. And after all of that, I sure don't want to waste exposures. Gotta love it.
Tin Can
14-May-2014, 17:49
I'm good at watching paint dry. :)
I agree the slower the process, the better.
I really wish I could dump this Internet habit.
Cutting your own glass adds value (blood, sweat, tears, & more blood) to the final product. I think of it as "Snap-shot Prevention". At present I takes me about 48 hours to produce a batch of plates for one of the cameras. Sometime longer. 99% of that time of course, is waiting for the substrate and emulsion to dry. And after all that, I sure don't want to waste exposures. Gotta love it.
stawastawa
14-May-2014, 19:25
an idea, You could probably swing by a glass store or frame shop and pick up remnant pieces of glass, especially if you get your framing done there and stop by or glass on a regular basis. =)
nice work dannl!
i have a handful of 5x7 dry plates i coated ( in the fall? )
and recently discovered them ... i'll expose them soon,
thanks for reminding me :)
john
nice work dannl!
i have a handful of 5x7 dry plates i coated ( in the fall? )
and recently discovered them ... i'll expose them soon,
thanks for reminding me :)
john
Now that you have had some plates in storage for a time, let us know if you have experienced any problems with the emulsion peeling. SergeiR mentioned this problem in a previous post. None of my processes plates from last fall have peeled. But I did use Polyurethane for subbing the plate, which may have reduced that risk.
Now that you have had some plates in storage for a time, let us know if you have experienced any problems with the emulsion peeling. SergeiR mentioned this problem in a previous post. None of my processes plates from last fall have peeled. But I did use Polyurethane for subbing the plate, which may have reduced that risk.
i've others that i exposed and printed with, developed out &c that were older than a few months
and never had peeling troubles, but then again, i add hardener to my fixer now, and i use a strong developer and cold chemistry ( which all helps ! )
i might not be the best barometer about this issue because stuff i coated with is about 6-7 years past the expiration date ...
Here's the homemade "plate developing tool" I mentioned in the "Dry Plate Day" thread. I thought I had already posted this here, but can't seem to find anything.
With this simple tool you can develop your plates in a flat-bottom tray, and keep your fingers dry. And then if you so desire, you can develop the plates face-down, reducing the chance for any particles in the chemicals settling onto the emulsion. It's a stiff wire bent in the shape shown in the pictures. On mine I coated the tips with liquid electrical tape, which helps grip the plate and minimizes edge chipping. If the tool is bent with the proper dimensions for the plate size used, the plate will be held very securely. Enjoy!
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i've others that i exposed and printed with, developed out &c that were older than a few months
and never had peeling troubles, but then again, i add hardener to my fixer now, and i use a strong developer and cold chemistry ( which all helps ! )
i might not be the best barometer about this issue because stuff i coated with is about 6-7 years past the expiration date ...
You're the perfect barometer because I have some LL in film cans that's been there for 6-8 years. At least it was liquid when it went in.
Developer for liquid Foma Speed.
I have now coated, exposed and developed some plates (4x5") with liquid foma with satisfying results.
As I am a fan of Pyrocat-HD, is there anybody who tried developing DIY coated plates in Pyrocat-HD?
I will also say, though, that part of my interest is with shooting tiny dry plates using the cut film holders I have for my Hasselblad. The pressure plate is removable specifically for use with glass plates. So...cute little squares of homemade dry-plate goodness? I'm down for that, and may even be able to find a way to make that work in my apartment.
Same for me and my Rolleiflex plateholders... The older folding dryplate cameras are a hoot too but the problem is finding thinner glass.
The Eastman House has a (sold out) workshop on dryplate emulsion-making coming up in August. So apparently there's interest in this.
Naturally, since we all need to consider alternatives to film...
I'd like to find 1.5mm plate glass, which is very close to the thickness of the old glass plates in my 5X7 Premo holders. I have been looking and it seems kinda rare. Schott sells 1.5mm borosilicate micro float glass in large quantities.
I wonder where I could find 16x20 sheets of it to cut down.
I will write to Schott soon, but my order would be micro. :(
I have read how Denise Ross suggests to modify a DDS to SDS and shim to fit cheap and available 3/32" glass. See http://www.thelightfarm.com/ for her informative site.
I've probably mentioned this several times, but there are several manufacturers that make a very inexpensive picture frame sold under Main Stays (Walmart) brand, Format brand, MCS Plastic Format Frame, etc. These are those simple plastic frames where the glass is popped into the front of a thin black plastic frame. The frame itself is nothing more than a holder for the glass and is only visible at the very edge. The glass found in these is typically 1.5mm. When I see them at thrift stores I buy them up specifically for cutting into plates. The 8x10 glass from the 8x0 frames for example fits perfectly into my wooden 8x10 Eastman Plate holder. When cut to size this same glass also fits my other camera plate holders. I once found a US company that sold 8x10 1.5mm sheets by the crate. I need to locate them again. I think the old German metal plate cameras may have required plates that were even thinner that. I could be mistaken though.
I have several of those MCS frames in 8x10 and I just opened one up. I measure 0.075" which is 1.9mm. My Premo holders are buried. I may find them tonight and check fit.
I've probably mentioned this several times, but there are several manufacturers that make a very inexpensive picture frame sold under Main Stays (Walmart) brand, Format brand, MCS Plastic Format Frame, etc. These are those simple plastic frames where the glass is popped into the front of a thin black plastic frame. The frame itself is nothing more than a holder for the glass and is only visible at the very edge. The glass found in these is typically 1.5mm. When I see them at thrift stores I buy them up specifically for cutting into plates. The 8x10 glass from the 8x0 frames for example fits perfectly into my wooden 8x10 Eastman Plate holder. When cut to size this same glass also fits my other camera plate holders. I once found a US company that sold 8x10 1.5mm sheets by the crate. I need to locate them again. I think the old German metal plate cameras may have required plates that were even thinner that. I could be mistaken though.
I also have run into a few batches that have been a tad thicker than 1.5mm. But even then, they have fit the holders. It's the standard framing glass that I find too thick and heavy for this purpose.
c.d.ewen
1-Jun-2014, 19:32
Randy:
Look at Howard Glass in Worster MA. They show 1.60mm soda lime glass in 20x20 sheets. Nice folks.
Charley
In the morning I will contact them. Thanks !
Randy:
Look at Howard Glass in Worster MA. They show 1.60mm soda lime glass in 20x20 sheets. Nice folks.
Charley
Found a good condition 5x7 Kodak Plate holder with wood spacer containing a 4x5 film metal Kodak sheath. I hope that's clear. The 4x5 film is held fairly low and I don't have a proper depth gauge, but without the wood spacer there is room for 5X7 sheet glass up to 2.2mm.
I may end up a bit out of spec for 'T', but it's a start! I think I have 3 of these holder and 4 of the hidden Premo holders.
Back to the MCS picture frame glass. They stuff feels tempered, it is strong, and I though we can't cut tempered glass?
And notice the Howard Glass link Charley just gave us.
I also have run into a few batches that have been a tad thicker than 1.5mm. But even then, they have fit the holders. It's the standard framing glass that I find too thick and heavy for this purpose.
Found a good condition 5x7 Kodak Plate holder with wood spacer containing a 4x5 film metal Kodak sheath. I hope that's clear. The 4x5 film is held fairly low and I don't have a proper depth gauge, but without the wood spacer there is room for 5X7 sheet glass up to 2.2mm.
I may end up a bit out of spec for 'T', but it's a start! I think I have 3 of these holder and 4 of the hidden Premo holders.
Back to the MCS picture frame glass. They stuff feels tempered, it is strong, and I though we can't cut tempered glass?
And notice the Howard Glass link Charley just gave us.
I can't speak for the specific piece of glass that you have, but I have never run into a piece of glass that couldn't be cut. I just score it with a Steel Wheel glass cutter, and snap it off. It's possible that the glass you have found is of a different variety.
On the lens to emulsion distance . . . I'm sure you'll be fine if the camera was originally a plate camera. The problem most folks would experience is using a plate camera to expose sheet film. Sheet film generally sits lower in the holder than the surface of a dry plate would. In those situations I simply flip the focusing screen around to place the etched surface of the screen on the operator's side of the camera. If that makes sense.
I will check your ideas on 'T' against my own measurements. I probably got these holders with a Kodak or Ansco 30's or 40's camera. Of course the Premo is turn of the century and that camera and holders came in the same carrying case.
I'm a nut about checking 'T' to my own measurable satisfaction.
Discovered my Deardorff SC11 needed some adjustment to fit to a 'T'.
LOL
Thanks for the advice!
I can't speak for the specific piece of glass that you have, but I have never run into a piece of glass that couldn't be cut. I just score it with a Steel Wheel glass cutter, and snap it off. It's possible that the glass you have found is of a different variety.
On the lens to emulsion distance . . . I'm sure you'll be fine if the camera was originally a plate camera. The problem most folks would experience is using a plate camera to expose sheet film. Sheet film generally sits lower in the holder than the surface of a dry plate would. In those situations I simply flip the focusing screen around to place the etched surface of the screen on the operator's side of the camera. If that makes sense.
c.d.ewen
1-Jun-2014, 23:59
Randy:
I have not watched eBay for them in many years, but long ago I picked up a couple of 5x7 Linhof plate holders. No idea how often they may turn up, but they're well worth looking for, if you intend to shoot plates. The plate slides in from the bottom, and the entire back platen is spring-loaded, pushing the plate (or piece of sheet film) forward. Not all Linhof holders are made for plates, however. You need to make sure there's a lever on the side (to eject the plate).
Charley
i just use the thinnest plate glass my glazier has to offer. and i don't worry about my t distance
i have realized that sometimes when i ask for 4x5 or 5x7 or 8x10
they are extremely hard to remove from my plate holders and i have
had to have them cut a teeny bit shorter ... in falling plate cameras
or bag-mag septums it is easy to remove and install them ...
but plate holders are a huge PITA ... no matter how much i compress
that spring at the holder the plate has barely enough clearance to make it past
the top ... and if they cut it too short, well, they fall out ...
gotta love this stuff
I'd like to find 1.5mm plate glass, which is very close to the thickness of the old glass plates in my 5X7 Premo holders. I have been looking and it seems kinda rare. Schott sells 1.5mm borosilicate micro float glass in large quantities.
I wonder where I could find 16x20 sheets of it to cut down.
I will write to Schott soon, but my order would be micro. :(
I have read how Denise Ross suggests to modify a DDS to SDS and shim to fit cheap and available 3/32" glass. See http://www.thelightfarm.com/ for her informative site.
Here's the specific page Randy was referring to: http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/DryPlate/PlateHolders/DryPlatePart6.htm (Thanks!)
Working with dry plates needn't be a PITA. By far and away the easiest and cheapest way to go is to convert old wood film holders to plate holders. A converted holder only holds one plate, but what the heck. In a converted film holder, the plate is held at both ends of its length, so it's perfectly OK (preferable, even) for the plate to be a bit on the narrow side along its width. The plates are a whole lot easier to pop in and out than loading film. I will be more than happy to answer any questions if the instructions on TLF are unclear.
Back in the day, there was a lot of competition among manufacturers to design the 'best' dry plate holders. All I can say is that some concepts failed miserably! In addition, the old holders can have seriously rusted springs. And, they are rare and expensive. It would be a real shame if holders of all things were what's keeping dry plate photography from taking off.
d
My Kodak 5x7 plate holders do not use springs. The plate is captured at top with a ledge and at the bottom the flap folds over the plate, lots of room for minor undersize. It can hold exactly 5" wide, but I will be making my plates 1/32 under size.
I just got the quote from Howard Glass for 1.6mm glass and I consider them reasonable. Later this month I will order 100 cut to size with smooth edges. I think it's one more step I don't need to do.
Here's the Howard Glass quote from their email.
"... 12X12". 1.6mm Soda lime glass @ $2.20 ea. min order $100.00
... 100 sheets cut to 4.95 X 6.95 inches +0.0 -0.05 with smooth edges. Basicly 1/32" under 5X7" @ $1.65 ea. 2 weeks"
Before this happens I will be coating paper with Foma Liquid emulsion to learn and use with that obsolete film. :)
Today I am ordering a mag stirring variable temp hot plate. This one. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AYGIFCA/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
After ordering it, you can get a free thermocouple to control temp. Best deal I could find with good reviews. A Corning device is more than twice the price and probably the best. I have a boiling Corning mag stirrer, but it gets too hot too fast.
Charley,
Good 5x7 holders whether plate, film, wood, plastic are becoming very rare on eBay and elsewhere.
I think we are all realizing too late what a great format it is.
4x5 and 8x10 are everywhere, but not 5x7.
I have Mamiya 2x3 holders that are copies of the Linhof and I highly value them.
I will continue my search for all things Linhof.
Randy
Randy:
I have not watched eBay for them in many years, but long ago I picked up a couple of 5x7 Linhof plate holders. No idea how often they may turn up, but they're well worth looking for, if you intend to shoot plates. The plate slides in from the bottom, and the entire back platen is spring-loaded, pushing the plate (or piece of sheet film) forward. Not all Linhof holders are made for plates, however. You need to make sure there's a lever on the side (to eject the plate).
Charley
A possibility also . . . wooden inserts made for wooden plate holders . . . Like these on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=reducer+5x7&_osacat=69323&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xinsert+5x7&_nkw=insert+5x7&_sacat=69323). I have a pair of these the reduce 5x7 down to 3-1/4 x 5-1/2. I have never used them, but they are very easy to install and remove. Mine have a ridge at each end of the insert to allow for a fingernail, which in turn allows you the leverage to compress the spring in the bottom of the plate holder. There is also a finger indent to remove the plate from the insert itself while leaving the insert installed in the holder. Mine appear as though they could hold dry plates at least 2mm thick.
To keep emulsion warm while coating plates I use this contraption. It's a hot plate & a flower vase. I preheat the hot plate and then prime the vase with hot water. Then I insert the bottle of emulsion to bring it to temp. After each pour I then return the bottle to the vase. A large bucket of hot water will also do the same job.
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I have tried that. I am an ex-lab rat and prefer a more elegant and controllable solution. (pun).
To keep emulsion warm while coating plates I use this contraption. It's a hot plate & a flower vase. I preheat the hot plate and then prime the vase with hot water. Then I insert the bottle of emulsion to bring it to temp. After each pour I then return the bottle to the vase. A large bucket of hot water will also do the same job.
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This is a big thank you to Denise Ross and her publication of how to make emulsion wells. I figure I may as well make a couple as I believe TLF no longer sells them. When I order my 5X7 plates, I will order some emulsion well parts. For personal use, not for profit or sale.
Here's a link to Ms Ross's emulsion well plans. All credit to Denise. http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmlgen.py?content=06Jan2012
The trick as Denise says is dead flat, dead smooth and dead level. These can be made at home, but it is a process. I only recently got good at making GG.
i loaded a few plates and exposed them less than 20mins ago
and i am happy to say they went in and out of the plate holders
with EASE, no troubles like days gone by ..
I recall last fall installing a test 5x7 plate. For the life of me . . . I didn't think I could remove it without damaging the holder. This is a situation where size really matters. Well . . . length. I'd say I've only coated about 50 plates all totaled since last August. Of those, about 6 plates were 8x10, which did not need to be cut by hand. Practice makes perfect. I just need more practice cutting plates to the proper size.
Michael Carter
28-Aug-2014, 13:15
Hi,
My method of plate coating does not need subbing. Plates are scrubbed with calcium carbonate and grain alcohol. A rinse of hot warmer cleans off the whitening but a spray of the booze and a wipe with a paper towel is done before coating. No drilling or lift off occurs.
Thanks for this thread. It was exactly what I was looking for.
Michael
ozwoodnbrass
25-Oct-2014, 00:37
Hi Horsts, I see you are working with Foma. I am doing similar with half plates. I sub coat mine but I have problems with frilling. Do you sub coat or pour on direct.? I have made my own emulsion and have had no problems.
I am very carefull with cleaning the glass first.
I use PMK on mine and I like it.
andrewch59
15-May-2015, 00:20
I make my own silver gelatin dry plates 8 x 10, never had probs with the emulsion lifting, I use rottenstone and a little window cleaner, but still grind down the edges of the glass. Did have a bit of trouble getting the speed right but have it figured at about iso 10.
Tin Can
15-May-2015, 00:25
I make my own silver gelatin dry plates 8 x 10, never had probs with the emulsion lifting, I use rottenstone and a little window cleaner, but still grind down the edges of the glass. Did have a bit of trouble getting the speed right but have it figured at about iso 10.
You use this? http://www.amazon.com/Behlen-T23433-Rottenstone-1-lb/dp/B003AYPRLA
I make my own silver gelatin dry plates 8 x 10, never had probs with the emulsion lifting, I use rottenstone and a little window cleaner, but still grind down the edges of the glass. Did have a bit of trouble getting the speed right but have it figured at about iso 10.
ISO 10 is good. Which emulsion is that?
Besides emulsion lifting as it enters the stop bath, I've also had it curl up, and separate from the glass months after being processed. I think this occurs, as others have mentioned, because the glass is not chemically clean when the emulsion is applied. It's also possible that I've introduced contaminants between drying the plates, and coating the plates. I just picked up some knox gelatin, which may help. I would like to get away from the polyurethane step if possible. The drying time there is a pita.
hi dan !
i never ever have trouble with emulsion lift in the stop bath ( i dont' use stop but water instead :) )
usually when i had emulsion lift problems, it was as soon as the plate went into the fixer. ...
i had a beautiful full scale plate and i was stoked ... then :( the whole image lifted and floated off the plate ...
i would do anything to save the image .. hands in the fix with a sheet of glass or paper but it just shredded ..
i felt like joe pesci trying to puzzle together the ripped portrait of the pope on SNL ( after sinead o'connor ripped it up ... )
since i started putting the glass, or metal on a very cold stone just-post coating,
i stopped having problems like that, no gelatin needed, no urethane either ...
i DO put hardener in my fixer now .. it makes me cringe just saying that, but that has helped too.
YNNV
andrewch59
15-May-2015, 18:06
ISO 10 is good. Which emulsion is that?
Besides emulsion lifting as it enters the stop bath, I've also had it curl up, and separate from the glass months after being processed. I think this occurs, as others have mentioned, because the glass is not chemically clean when the emulsion is applied. It's also possible that I've introduced contaminants between drying the plates, and coating the plates. I just picked up some knox gelatin, which may help. I would like to get away from the polyurethane step if possible. The drying time there is a pita.
Hi Dan, I make it from scratch, silver nitrate, gelatin.......I also just use water as a stop bath, the only prob I sometimes have is if the water is a little too warm it frills. I made a dozen or so 8 x 10 and took another last night iso 10 was a couple of stops out, so will try at iso 8 tonight.
If any are worthy I will put them up here.
I made the mistake of trying to make some heart shaped bokeh in the background at the same time, unfortunately it throws the exposure out. Just another trial and error project.
I use rotten stone and spray glass cleaner as I said, then I get silicone cooking liner paper and store them in that until use. Then I re-store them in it after I have coated and the gelatin has set. No probs so far. Just make sure the gelatin has dried thoroughly or its sticky mess
I've never had the time to make emulsion from scratch. Not enough hours in the year. ;-)
andrewch59
15-May-2015, 19:56
I've never had the time to make emulsion from scratch. Not enough hours in the year. ;-)
Yes, understood, only takes a couple of hours over two nights though. Anyway I found this book to be interesting.
SILVER GELATIN A User's Guide to Liquid Photographic Emulsions PHOTOGRAPHY book
Hi Dan, I make it from scratch, silver nitrate, gelatin.......I also just use water as a stop bath, the only prob I sometimes have is if the water is a little too warm it frills. I made a dozen or so 8 x 10 and took another last night iso 10 was a couple of stops out, so will try at iso 8 tonight.
If any are worthy I will put them up here.
I made the mistake of trying to make some heart shaped bokeh in the background at the same time, unfortunately it throws the exposure out. Just another trial and error project.
I use rotten stone and spray glass cleaner as I said, then I get silicone cooking liner paper and store them in that until use. Then I re-store them in it after I have coated and the gelatin has set. No probs so far. Just make sure the gelatin has dried thoroughly or its sticky mess
what recipe do you use ? one of the ones in the silver gelatin book ?
Yes, understood, only takes a couple of hours over two nights though. Anyway I found this book to be interesting.
SILVER GELATIN A User's Guide to Liquid Photographic Emulsions PHOTOGRAPHY book
i have this book as well !
it is great resource for info on coating, processing &c but from
all reports the emulsion recipes are iffy ...
the best place to learn about making emulsions from scratch is the light farm ( http://www.thelightfarm.com )
proven recipes and information from people who use them. ( including mark ostermann at the george eastman house )
years ago i made an emulsion in a house i lived in when i was in college ( the 1980s ) using a recipe from an ancient photographic annual from 1904 ...
it wasn't hard, but didn't come out very good .. so i gravitated to liquid light which i have used on and off for 30 years ...
when i run out of film ( and i am just about there ! ) i will be making chris pattons sea water emulsion, it is simple; and i can't wait !
it is: gelatin, silver nitrate and sea water ( or salt added to water if you have no sea near you ) ... nothing else !
my problem is that i have film that i need to use up, because once i start to make my own emulsion, i don't plan on buying commercial film, paper &c anymore ...
john
andrewch59
16-May-2015, 18:10
what recipe do you use ? one of the ones in the silver gelatin book ?
i have this book as well !
it is great resource for info on coating, processing &c but from
all reports the emulsion recipes are iffy ...
the best place to learn about making emulsions from scratch is the light farm ( http://www.thelightfarm.com )
proven recipes and information from people who use them. ( including mark ostermann at the george eastman house )
years ago i made an emulsion in a house i lived in when i was in college ( the 1980s ) using a recipe from an ancient photographic annual from 1904 ...
it wasn't hard, but didn't come out very good .. so i gravitated to liquid light which i have used on and off for 30 years ...
when i run out of film ( and i am just about there ! ) i will be making chris pattons sea water emulsion, it is simple; and i can't wait !
it is: gelatin, silver nitrate and sea water ( or salt added to water if you have no sea near you ) ... nothing else !
my problem is that i have film that i need to use up, because once i start to make my own emulsion, i don't plan on buying commercial film, paper &c anymore ...
john
Hi John, yes it is Mark Ostermans recipe. The book supplies lots of variations and additives you can use to fine tune, and shows great ways to print using gelatin. Marks recipe also explains how to speed up your emulsions by heating and the speed at which you add the silver.
Andrew
hi dan !
i never ever have trouble with emulsion lift in the stop bath ( i dont' use stop but water instead :) )
usually when i had emulsion lift problems, it was as soon as the plate went into the fixer. ...
i had a beautiful full scale plate and i was stoked ... then :( the whole image lifted and floated off the plate ...
i would do anything to save the image .. hands in the fix with a sheet of glass or paper but it just shredded ..
i felt like joe pesci trying to puzzle together the ripped portrait of the pope on SNL ( after sinead o'connor ripped it up ... )
since i started putting the glass, or metal on a very cold stone just-post coating,
i stopped having problems like that, no gelatin needed, no urethane either ...
i DO put hardener in my fixer now .. it makes me cringe just saying that, but that has helped too.
YNNV
Hey John, maybe you can explain something for me. I was coating 6 half-plates this evening, thinking about the cold stone method that you had described. How do you think that works, or why does that work for you? Since liquid light, that which I use is 80% water, at some point the plates need to dry. I can see the stone causing the gelatin to initially gel, but without drying the plates, I envision them sticking to the plate holder. Or is that not the case? Anyhoo, I pre-coated the plates with Knox gelatin and that step went very well. Extracting the water with a blow-dryer really sped up the process. Coating on top of the knox went very smooth. I think this entire batch is for the most part defect free.
That Knox smells awful. Reminds me of when the horseshoer came out to the stables to do the horses. A lovely smell.
hi dannL
that's a good question, and to be honest
i have no idea how or why it does what it does ..
i used to precoat all my plates with knox gelatin but
since i learned about the cold-method, i stopped using gelatin altogether as a sub layer
my poor guess is that the cold solidifies the gelatin fast and does something like "cold cures" it
the only time i used gelatin lately was with 20+ year old liquid light i used, the gelatin was bad
so i pre-coated everything ( paper mostly ) with a sub layer of knox ... and it worked OK
i used them as retina prints and they seemed to have stood up very well ( unfixed in room light didnt' change )
and have beautiful colors ...
andrewch59
28-Jun-2015, 01:09
You use this? http://www.amazon.com/Behlen-T23433-Rottenstone-1-lb/dp/B003AYPRLA
Hi Randy, apologies for the late reply, I just went on feebay and someone un the UK sold me a decent size bag of the stuff. Its also good with a bit of linseed oil for polishing wooden cameras. French polishers would use it as a final finish.
Kevin Harding
20-Aug-2015, 11:21
Hello all - I apologize for intervening in a (potentially) older thread, but I'm wondering if anyone knows a place to source 4x5 glass plates intended for photo use.
Mamut Photo in the Czech Republic appears to sell them (http://www.mamut-photo.com/eshop/en/wet-plate-collodion/142-clear-glass-plate-2mm-4x5-inch.html) but they won't ship to Canada, so I'm in a bit of a bind.
Any suggestions?
Tin Can
20-Aug-2015, 11:25
Hello all - I apologize for intervening in a (potentially) older thread, but I'm wondering if anyone knows a place to source 4x5 glass plates intended for photo use.
Mamut Photo in the Czech Republic appears to sell them (http://www.mamut-photo.com/eshop/en/wet-plate-collodion/142-clear-glass-plate-2mm-4x5-inch.html) but they won't ship to Canada, so I'm in a bit of a bind.
Any suggestions?
Howard Glass in USA, read my post in this thread. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?106648-Dry-Plates-(handmade)-Tips-amp-Tricks-Experiences-amp-Examples&p=1142688&viewfull=1#post1142688
Kevin Harding
20-Aug-2015, 11:29
Howard Glass in USA, read my post in this thread. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?106648-Dry-Plates-(handmade)-Tips-amp-Tricks-Experiences-amp-Examples&p=1142688&viewfull=1#post1142688
Hi Randy, thanks!
From your reply, I take it that they do custom orders to cut down from a larger size, and the per-unit cost doesn't appear horrible (though about a $200 minimum order?). I'm wondering if there's any place that sells pre-cut plates. I may be out of luck!
Tin Can
20-Aug-2015, 11:33
Hi Randy, thanks!
From your reply, I take it that they do custom orders to cut down from a larger size, and the per-unit cost doesn't appear horrible (though about a $200 minimum order?). I'm wondering if there's any place that sells pre-cut plates. I may be out of luck!
Contact them. They do anything glass.
andrewch59
20-Aug-2015, 17:33
Hello all - I apologize for intervening in a (potentially) older thread, but I'm wondering if anyone knows a place to source 4x5 glass plates intended for photo use.
Mamut Photo in the Czech Republic appears to sell them (http://www.mamut-photo.com/eshop/en/wet-plate-collodion/142-clear-glass-plate-2mm-4x5-inch.html) but they won't ship to Canada, so I'm in a bit of a bind.
Any suggestions?
Yknow, I live In a small town in QLd, all I did was go to my local glazier who fits house windows. He even ordered in 2mm thick glass for me, I did have to buy five sheets at a cost of about $180, he then cut it down to whatever sizes I wanted. I now I have lots of 8x10 and 10x12.
Look up glazier in your phone book
If you want pre-coated, then you are on the right thread to do it yourself
Kevin Harding
20-Aug-2015, 19:54
Yknow, I live In a small town in QLd, all I did was go to my local glazier who fits house windows. He even ordered in 2mm thick glass for me, I did have to buy five sheets at a cost of about $180, he then cut it down to whatever sizes I wanted. I now I have lots of 8x10 and 10x12.
Look up glazier in your phone book
If you want pre-coated, then you are on the right thread to do it yourself
Thanks for the advice. I will check in with local glass shops.
andrewch59
21-Aug-2015, 11:14
Thanks for the advice. I will check in with local glass shops.
The postage on glass must be horrific!
Make sure your plate holders actually require special order glass. Some do, but not most. Framing glass will usually work fine for all but really old holders. Take a holder to your best local glass shop and see if they have glass in stock that fits. The place I get my glass certainly does, and I live in a small town. This will save you a bushel basket of money (as will snapping your own plates.)
Good luck and fun!
Kevin Harding
21-Aug-2015, 14:16
Make sure your plate holders actually require special order glass. Some do, but not most. Framing glass will usually work fine for all but really old holders. Take a holder to your best local glass shop and see if they have glass in stock that fits. The place I get my glass certainly does, and I live in a small town. This will save you a bushel basket of money (as will snapping your own plates.)
Good luck and fun!
I have a glass cutter and would prefer to snap my own glass, but I have a Linhof Universal plate holder, which is picky. It wants ~1.2mm glass, I believe, and the local art framing store has 2-3mm. Glaziers are my next step...
I have a glass cutter and would prefer to snap my own glass, but I have a Linhof Universal plate holder, which is picky. It wants ~1.2mm glass, I believe, and the local art framing store has 2-3mm. Glaziers are my next step...
Yup, that's a problem child. Lovely, though. If you have to order a big minimum, at least you'll have plates for a long time to come!
Agfa are making glass plates. Ilford still make them for the nuclear industry.
http://www.macodirect.de/films-special-films-glasplates-agfa-agfa-glasplatesbrexp-date-052015-p-2038.html?language=en&osCsid=32191c9aa6d4eaa8df86b42d26f50680
http://www.lumiere-shop.de/index.php?page=product&info=10037
ILFORD L4 glass plates
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20114271148161323.pdf
Russ
Kevin Harding
22-Aug-2015, 06:05
Agfa are making glass plates. Ilford still make them for the nuclear industry.
http://www.macodirect.de/films-special-films-glasplates-agfa-agfa-glasplatesbrexp-date-052015-p-2038.html?language=en&osCsid=32191c9aa6d4eaa8df86b42d26f50680
http://www.lumiere-shop.de/index.php?page=product&info=10037
ILFORD L4 glass plates
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20114271148161323.pdf
Russ
Thank you.
Nodda Duma
3-Jul-2016, 15:42
Tagging this post.. I made my first batch in Nov and recently mixed up a second batch using the basic emulsion recipe on unblinkingeye.com. All these trials and tribulations are very familiar. I cut my own 4"x5" and 5"x7" plates from larger 0.050" thick Schott soda lime glass sheets that I lucked upon.
One tidbit: I use a small OEM paristaltic pump I found off eBay to add silver nitrate during precipitation stage powered by the same sort of DC power supply that most tinkerers own. Works very nice.
Robert Brazile
5-Jul-2016, 07:27
Hi Nodda Duma,
Did you control the rate of flow with the power supply, or via some kind of programmed controller? (e.g., Arduino or the like). Can you give any details on the pump? Nick Brandreth at GEH (well, GEM, I suppose) has done something similar and I have been thinking of rigging something like that.
Robert Brazile
As much fun as a peristaltic pump might be (and I'd love to play with one just for the fun!) and the geeky coolness factor (GEM's reason -- marketing is everything) it is not necessary. A stopcock buret delivers as even a delivery as is possible and is dropdead easy to use and affordable. I make a very advanced emulsion with one.
As much fun as a peristaltic pump might be (and I'd love to play with one just for the fun!) and the geeky coolness factor (GEM's reason -- marketing is everything) it is not necessary. A stopcock buret delivers as even a delivery as is possible and is dropdead easy to use and affordable. I make a very advanced emulsion with one.
i don't use that stuff, nor do i make an advanced emulsion :),
i just slow pour freehand. very un-percise and very inexpensive !
denise, you should start marketing this stuff, including your
oreo cookie box coating mechanism :)
Nodda Duma
5-Jul-2016, 10:59
Hi Nodda Duma,
Did you control the rate of flow with the power supply, or via some kind of programmed controller? (e.g., Arduino or the like). Can you give any details on the pump? Nick Brandreth at GEH (well, GEM, I suppose) has done something similar and I have been thinking of rigging something like that.
Robert Brazile
I controlled it with the power supply. The pump is just a generic OEM pump head off eBay that supported up to at least 40 ml / min drip rate. I think it is often used for water circulation/aeration needs in fish aquariums. When it came in, I just had to characterize flow rate vs output voltage. Look up 12V paristaltic pump head off eBay. It looks like this:
152476
The push-back (not from you Robert) to this idea is surprising. The title of this thread is "tips and tricks" applied to making dry plate, and this is a trick I use for controlling flow rate during precipitation. It was $10 in parts off eBay and well within my skill-set to put together...as easy for me to set up as it probably was for Denise to set up a drain stopcock and cheaper from my viewpoint. It's not what I'd call "geeking out", but merely a tool - a rather trivial one at that - which does what I need it to do.
So take it for what it's worth. If a $10 paristaltic pump head seems magical and overly complex, I'll resist describing the 10 ml industrial syringes I use to deposit emulsion onto plates, or the PID controller I use to set and maintain emulsion bath temperature. ;)
Sincerest apologies if it sounded like I was poo-poo'ing the idea of a pump. I do think it is very cool. I think also that you may be underestimating your skill set! Most people (and that definitely includes me) have an easier time setting up a ready-to-use glass tube next to an emulsion beaker than setting up and using a pump.
In the early days of handmade emulsion making discussions I got the opposite kind of push-back than you and I think I'm still a bit reactive against it. The narrative then was that it was impossible to make emulsions without automatic (or at least electric) pumps and meters and mixers. As John can testify, it works fine for most emulsions to simply pour a silver nitrate solution into a salted gelatin solution.
Probably never a better application for the truism of "different folks, different strokes." There are a LOT of ways to make beautiful emulsions.
John, I keep waiting for someone else to start marketing emulsion making do-dads! If I were to sell cookie box coaters, I'd end up eating all those cookies :).
nodda duma
like denise, im not poo pooing what you have done, and made ( just the opposite ! ).
personally im too clumsy and electronicly illiterate to put together
any sort of high tech ( yep i am calling your 20$ thingamabob high tech ! ) and i am amazed that people
can figure out how to cobble together stuff like you did.
i can free pour though, and stir with my other hand, and MAYBE count/ mumble numbers to myself, but that is about as
far as i go, if i am chewing gum, or listening to or humming a song on the radio, i am hosed, i might as well just pour it all in at once ( and I have)!
==
yeah denise, too many cookies isn't good :)
unless you find an alternate use for all the cookies
and sell them too ( like pie crust :) )
Nodda Duma
5-Jul-2016, 23:22
No worries and my apologies..I'm probably just cranky because I had to go back to work after the holiday.
Let me share the fruits of my labor: scan of a print made from a dry plate negative off my latest batch. The town fire department pulled their old engines out on the 4th so I could photograph them. This is Engine No. 2, purchased by the town in 1929.
152487
Robert Brazile
6-Jul-2016, 05:43
Easy enough to be tetchy after the holiday and having to go back to work! Thanks very much for the answers, though, as I'm sure a project like this is in my future. The old engine came out well!
Robert
...
Let me share the fruits of my labor: scan of a print made from a dry plate negative off my latest batch. The town fire department pulled their old engines out on the 4th so I could photograph them. This is Engine No. 2, purchased by the town in 1929.
152487
Gorgeous!
andrewch59
6-Jul-2016, 17:56
Wonderful Pic, its the first example I have seen of a positive outcome with dry plate, well done! I, like the rest of you have spent hours in the dark icing noodles and the like. I have plates made up, but am apprehensive in using them to delay the feeling of disappointment once again. I think my problem is exposure lengths. It seems it is in the ballpark of collodion speed. As for adding the silver, I use the old syringe trick, cant say it works well I don't seem to be able to get enough picture to tell. Good luck to you its great to see a success
Nodda Duma
7-Jul-2016, 05:49
Hi Andrew,
My latest batch is about ISO 0.5, and required a 45 second exposure at f/11 for the picture above. I metered EV values of 10 or so in the shaded portions. It was still a little thin (likely due to reciprocity?) but it was close enough to make a good print. I had to dodge the sunny areas.
This is just about in line with the sunny 16 rule. So EV15 (sunny scene) gets about a 2s exposure at f/16
I'd think you would want to be in that ballpark. You can also test for exposure similar to testing exposure times for prints on the enlarger. I.e use the dark slide to increasingly expose the plate a section at a time, like 1s, 2s, 4s, 8s, 16s etc., each corresponding to 1 stop increase. Do this at f/32 against a sunlit scene and you'll cover the possible range of ISO values (~0.2 - 4) at which your emulsion could be sitting.
If you still need to increase speed, make sure to ripen the emulsion by raising the temperature of the emulsion to 130F and holding for 15 minutes before slowly decreasing to 104F to coat.
No worries and my apologies..I'm probably just cranky because I had to go back to work after the holiday.
Let me share the fruits of my labor: scan of a print made from a dry plate negative off my latest batch. The town fire department pulled their old engines out on the 4th so I could photograph them. This is Engine No. 2, purchased by the town in 1929.
152487
really nice !
its great you are making prints of these
i hope you are having a bi-annual exhibit at your
library ( where you showed your work before ? ).
i'm certain the scan looks nice but in person
the print must sing.
Read a bit of your blog. Good stuff!
really nice !
its great you are making prints of these
i hope you are having a bi-annual exhibit at your
library ( where you showed your work before ? ).
i'm certain the scan looks nice but in person
the print must sing.
Nodda Duma
7-Jul-2016, 07:50
really nice !
its great you are making prints of these
i hope you are having a bi-annual exhibit at your
library ( where you showed your work before ? ).
i'm certain the scan looks nice but in person
the print must sing.
The print is gorgeous...even my wife liked it (the ultimate judge). I'll be donating a copy to the fire department for sure, and might well take one in to the library.
The studio I had prints for sale at is the Wild Salamander in Hollis NH. They are renovating their shop, so I don't have anything there right now. When they reopen I might be tempted to bring this one in.
andrewch59
7-Jul-2016, 19:28
Thanks for the advice Nodda, I have Mark Ostermans book and follow it to the letter, I did have some partial success with about iso 5-8 ?? ish. As you say all depends on light conditions. Will have to get those plates out and try them......
urnem57
10-Feb-2021, 20:05
Has anyone ever ordered cut glass plates from these guys I saw earlier in this thread? (Mamut Photo in the Czech Republic)I called one of my local glaziers and they quoted me $5.00/plate fir 4x5 plates with polished edges. I only have called one place, but that seems a ridiculous price to me. Any help is appreciated!
Mamut is an active company in the wet plate crowd. Have seen them at events. No experience myself, but worth a try.
FotoImpex also offers glass plates nowadays. Probably still not cheapest solution, but prices seem reasonable.
For experiments I often take cheap photo frames from local manufacturing stores. ;-)
Cheers
Tin Can
11-Feb-2021, 08:21
In USA I used this source
http://www.howardglass.com/index.html
It was recommended by another member here
Cost was way lower
Thin, polished edges, very clean
urnem57
11-Feb-2021, 10:42
Great! Thank you.
Daniel Unkefer
12-Feb-2021, 06:38
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50821659477_8283eb540e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kqWhLe)J Lane Dry Plate Maki Brass Petzval 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kqWhLe) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr
9x12cm J Lane Dry Plate Test exposed EI 1 dev straight Legacy Mic-X 18 minutes at 60F. Plaubel Makiflex 6 inch Brass Projection Petzval about F4. Arista 8x10 RC Matte #2 dev Multigrade. Omega DII with Omegalite Diffusion Head. RADA 9x12cm Normalfaltz Plate Holder with Makiflex Attachment
urnem57
21-Feb-2021, 14:27
I contacted Howard glass. They quoted me 25 borosilicate glass plates for their minimum order of $350. That seemed insane. Did the guy steer me wrong and not understand or have things changed with them. I’m new to this and am not 100% on what I am after.
Tin Can
21-Feb-2021, 16:44
I forget what exact glass I ordered, but it was the cheapest plain glass
If the min is now $350, find out how many sheets of whatever size and thickness YOU want, which will be far more than 25 sheets of fancy glass
Special orders of anything is not the same as off the shelf
What size exactly do you want?
and to fit what holder
I contacted Howard glass. They quoted me 25 borosilicate glass plates for their minimum order of $350. That seemed insane. Did the guy steer me wrong and not understand or have things changed with them. I’m new to this and am not 100% on what I am after.
Tin Can
21-Feb-2021, 16:51
First, where are you in this world, that matters
Two, you didn't read the whole thread
I found my old post quickly
Do not buy the sizes in the below link
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?106648-Dry-Plates-(handmade)-Tips-amp-Tricks-Experiences-amp-Examples&p=1142688&viewfull=1#post1142688
urnem57
21-Feb-2021, 18:22
I missed the info in your post. This was the wrong kind of glass I was quoted. That price didn’t include shipping. BUT that was for 25 4x5 plates!
“ Usually the Borofloat glass is used here.
The closest thicknesses are 1.1 and 1.75 mm
We have a $350 min order” (from quote)
Thank you for them education that I am getting.
It is appreciated.
happy to share my adventures on shooting Jlane black Glass Ambrotypes plates (still a experimental product)
bought a box of 4x5 and a packet of Lee No 2 monobath.
Best results (yeah I shifted the camera after focusing :( )
213064
Video at
https://youtu.be/cMua7u-HRnU
Tin Can
23-Feb-2021, 01:34
Very interesting
Thanks for posting!
urnem57
24-Feb-2021, 15:23
Very nice! What gauge of silver wire do I want to use when modifying 4x5 film holders to hold plates? I realize that they will leave white marks on the corners of the plates from their shadows. Not quite as elegant of a solution as Jason’s holders. But for learning and until I buy a few more, the modified ones will have to do. I am looking at 24 gauge silver wire. I need the smallest possible diameter that will have the strength to support the plates and las for a long while, since they will be epoxied in place. Thanks in advance.
Ok. Making great strides thanks to this forum. I have 4x5 glass plates subbed w/a Rollei Gelatin & chrome alum mixture. That part went pretty well for my first try. One plate has some streaks on it, the others are quite clear. They are dried. I am now going to coat them today. I am using Foma Emulsion for the foreseeable future, as I learn my process. My question is about exposure. I will be shooting them with a Speed Graphic with an Aero Ektar f2.5 lens. What ISO is the ball park to begin with? I also have a blue 47 filter to put over my incident meter for a rough idea of exposures. I realize that testing, testing, testing is the name of the game but I am uncertain as to where to start as far as ISO and exposures go with this new endeavor. Thanks in advance.
The other trick I learned was in response to my above post. It was suggested to use clear plastic triangles instead of wire to support the plates. Plastic from a cd case apparently does the trick. I will report back once I try everything.
Well....that was an unmitigated disaster. The emulsion melted down well enough in 35mm film cans, but it was like doing wax-resist painting. When I went to pour the emulsion on the plates, it was practically beading up and not sticking at all. Whether I poured directly from the film can or tried a syringe I could not get any adhesion. I washed the plates with calcium carbonate, a drop of dish soap, and scrubbed them with a cotton pad. I let them dry thoroughly and then subbed them according to these instructions:
Preparation of subbing layer (done under normal lighting). It is essential that an initial subbing layer be attached to the glass, or else the emulsion layer will simply detach during tray development. Although varnish may work too, the traditional gelatin subbing layer is the most
e$ective. In addition, it can be removed with bleach if one wishes to reuse the glass. The following recipe is what I use for a batch of four 4×5′′ plates, though far more plates could be treated with this amount:
A. Heat up 50ml. of distilled water to a maximum of 50 degrees C. (about 125 degrees F.) in a beaker. Then pour 1g. (1/4 teaspoon) of chrome alum into this water and stir with a standard darkroom paddle until dissolved. Without this hardening agent the subbing layer tends to frill and sometimes completely separate from the glass during tray development; so the small expense is worth it.
B. Sprinkle 3.5g. of gelatin onto surface of 236ml. (1 cup) of distilled water. Let this stand for 10-15 minutes so that the gelatin can swell up. Then heat up the mixture until the gelatin is dissolved. Pour contents into a third container that is speci#ed for photographic use only.
C. Add 5ml. (1 teaspoon) of chrome alum hardener solution (from step A) to gelatin solution to make a total of approximately 240ml.
D. Add approx. 15ml. (1 tablespoon) of Photo-Flo to this same mixture to make approx. 255ml. of gelatin/chrome alum/Photo-Flo solution.
-
E. While the solution is still warm, pour it over the glass plate and spread evenly by tilting the glass. Because it isn’t always easy to see which surface has gelatin, I go ahead and pour gelatin over both surfaces. Once this is done, carefully lean the glass against a vertical surface to dry. In order to prevent excess gelatin from collecting at the lower end I drain o$ most of the excess and allow the surface to cool somewhat before placing it vertically. Allow the plates to dry for at least 6-8 hours before proceeding with the next phase.
The chrome alum solution (the 45ml. left over) will only keep for about a day, so it should be disposed of. Why the waste? Because I can’t measure a smaller amount accurately. I keep any left over gelatin/chrome alum/Photo-Flo solution in the refrigerator for a day or two in case I wish to make more plates. After three or more days this solution loses it’s beneficial properties and should be disposed of. (Source: The Dry Plate Process. Mark Scholer Peterson. www.alternativephotography.com)
Where am I way off the mark? I can reuse the coated plates by cleaning with bleach, correct?
I stopped after 2 and had 4 more ready to go. I didn’t want to waste more emulsion.
I realize that there’s a learning curve to this and am willing to pay the tuition for the lesson.
I already have a new and better appreciation for how good the guys that had to do it this way were.
Thanks in advance.
Have you been to http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/DryPlate/DryPlatePart1.htm
There is a lot to study
Have you been to http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/DryPlate/DryPlatePart1.htm
There is a lot to study
No. I didn’t know about this site. Thanks.
paulbarden
3-Mar-2021, 18:44
I suspect that as long as you've cleaned the glass scrupulously and rinsed with distilled water at the end, you can coat the glass without subbing. The guy who publishes Lost Light Art (Nejc) in Slovenia makes his own dry plates on glass, using the Foma emulsion and all he does is clean the glass. See: https://lostlightphotography.com/coating-dryplates-step-by-step-tutorial/
Thanks Paul. He’s who inspired me to try this in the first place. His video showed up in my “Recommened” feed on YT. The kid is very knowledgeable and easy to follow.
Update: I tried coating again last night without subbing. It went much better, but was still kind of sloppy and uneven. This is an art. I am at the bottom of the learning curve, but this session did boost my confidence. I’m just going to keep doing it. I am going to work my way into some variation on this theme: http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmlgen.py?content=03Nov2011. In the meantime I will continue to pour by hand and improve a bit each time. The learning process is twofold - I learn from both what works and what doesn’t. Thanks for the help and I’ll keep posting on the progress. I also completely understand why someone set out to invent a machine to do this process. Although there is a beauty to the hand-poured aesthetic as well.
The Lost Light Link is very good and well presented
I suspect that as long as you've cleaned the glass scrupulously and rinsed with distilled water at the end, you can coat the glass without subbing. The guy who publishes Lost Light Art (Nejc) in Slovenia makes his own dry plates on glass, using the Foma emulsion and all he does is clean the glass. See: https://lostlightphotography.com/coating-dryplates-step-by-step-tutorial/
Is it advisable/necessary to use Eco-Wash or hypo clear after fixing dry plates? (Both home made w/Foma Emulsion & J. Lane Plates)
When washing these plates, should that be done in a still tray of water? Or a tray with gently running water well away from the plates?
I understand that the gelatin is swollen and the emulsion must be pretty soft at this point, too. (That last sentence is a set up for some terrible jokes)
Thanks in advance.
Kiwi7475
6-Mar-2021, 17:53
Is it advisable/necessary to use Eco-Wash or hypo clear after fixing dry plates? (Both home made w/Foma Emulsion & J. Lane Plates)
When washing these plates, should that be done in a still tray of water? Or a tray with gently running water well away from the plates?
I understand that the gelatin is swollen and the emulsion must be pretty soft at this point, too. (That last sentence is a set up for some terrible jokes)
Thanks in advance.
I run them with flowing water for 10 min using a Paterson washer (obviously they just sink to the bottom) and then 30 sec photo flo on a tray. Never had an issue with the emulsion.
paulbarden
7-Mar-2021, 22:10
Is it advisable/necessary to use Eco-Wash or hypo clear after fixing dry plates? (Both home made w/Foma Emulsion & J. Lane Plates)
When washing these plates, should that be done in a still tray of water? Or a tray with gently running water well away from the plates?
I understand that the gelatin is swollen and the emulsion must be pretty soft at this point, too. (That last sentence is a set up for some terrible jokes)
Thanks in advance.
I recently bought a bottle of that Foma Photo Emulsion with the idea of making my own dry plates for negatives. I set about prepping 5x7 inch glass two nights ago, and followed the same protocol for prepping for wet plate negatives: thorough cleaning of glass with a suspension of calcium carbonate, scrubbing both surfaces extremely well, washing under hot water, then a final rinse in distilled and hung up to dry. I cut my own glass to fit and use a sharpening stone to de-burr the edges on both top and bottom. This step is important, as it gives the emulsion something to hang on to on the edges.
I scooped out a couple tablespoons of Foma emulsion into a black film canister and warmed it in hot water to melt it, and syringed it onto warm glass (don't try to pour onto cold glass or it won't flow well.) I left it in a dark box to dry for two days and exposed my first plate this afternoon. I developed it for 4.5 minutes in home made D-23, rinsed in plain water, and fixed in a hardening fixer. Then I washed it in running water for 25 minutes and racked it to dry. In all, it was quite easy (though time consuming) and the emulsion adhered to the glass extremely well without any subbing or other black magic. A meticulously cleaned plate will hold the emulsion just fine without any subbing trickery.
Anyway, here's a scan of the negative:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51014156018_1286430335_h.jpg
Wow! That’s very nice. And encouraging. Thanks. You had a much more successful first attempt then I did.
paulbarden
8-Mar-2021, 07:50
Wow! That’s very nice. And encouraging. Thanks. You had a much more successful first attempt then I did.
It helps that I have a lot of experience making wet plate glass negatives. Just clean your glass really well and you’ll be fine.
It helps that I have a lot of experience making wet plate glass negatives. Just clean your glass really well and you’ll be fine.
that is a very nice plate. I will try to get a bottle of FOMA emulsion to try too.
ernie57
11-Mar-2021, 22:07
Ok. I finally got out and shot 4 plates today. They are still drying or I would post pictures. Naturally, The J Lane plate came out perfect. My hand poured ones? Well not so much for a first try.
One of them had a mess on the non emulsion side - fingerprints and streaks of undeveloped white emulsion that did not clear. If it’s unexposed, does it not develop or fix away? I also screwed up which side was coated and which wasn’t. I have a way to fix that. My other questions are:
1. Does developer (HC110 Dil. B) develop the clear part of the image? Is that why it’s done in a white tray?
2. Does the fix remove anything unexposed? The clear or dark part?
3. Can fixing be done in the light after a bit of time has passed? Say 5 minutes into a 10 minute fix?
4. I was afraid to scratch or damage the good parts of the image by trying to wipe or scrape away the solid white emulsion (unsure which side had emulsion on it) I tried doubling the developing time and doubling the fix time, but it would not clear. Can it be scraped off with a razor once it’s dry?
5. Why are there sections of white emulsion that do not appear to have been exposed or develop away when the rest of the plate has an image. Is it on the opposite side of the emulsion? I can’t feel a difference with my fingers.
Thanks in advance. This is really a kick. I have a new found respect of the earlier photographers who had to pour their own plates. It’s tricky and like everything with LFP, it offers multiple options to screw it all up.
Update: as they are dying, some of the areas that were white have cleared, but they are bubbles that are not adhered to the glass. I’ll put up some scans tomorrow.
DannL-USA
8-Dec-2023, 19:21
Wow! Ten years went by fast. I completely fergot about this thread.
Very nice image. Good to hear of the results not using a sub. What hardening fixer did you use?
Very nice image. Good to hear of the results not using a sub. What hardening fixer did you use?
hi
not sure if you are asking me but since I can't help myself ... I use either plain hypo with sprint alum hardener or I use sprint speed fixer with alum hardener..
I also sometimes put the plates in a hardening bath after the water bath (I use in place of stop bath) then right into the fixer .. it's been a while though I was just looking at a stack of glass and was thinking I should coat something soon seeing it's leap-day and all that ..
have fun!
John
John Layton
29-Feb-2024, 09:32
Paul I'm a bit late to the game here but that result you'd posted just over three years ago...looks great!
I sometimes think of doing glass plates...mostly for the dimensional stability which glass provides (thinking mostly for 11x14 negatives) - and your photo gives me some needed encouragement - thank you!
Question: this is the "Fomaspeed" emulsion as listed by B+H? ...and how did you rate this - ISO-wise?
paulbarden
29-Feb-2024, 10:32
Paul I'm a bit late to the game here but that result you'd posted just over three years ago...looks great!
I sometimes think of doing glass plates...mostly for the dimensional stability which glass provides (thinking mostly for 11x14 negatives) - and your photo gives me some needed encouragement - thank you!
Question: this is the "Fomaspeed" emulsion as listed by B+H? ...and how did you rate this - ISO-wise?
Yes, this: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/815297-REG/Foma_174052_Fomaspeed_Liquid_Emulsion_1.html
I found it performed best when rated at 1 ASA.
Hello,
Does anyone have experience with dry plate tintype developing? I’ve tried the new HC 110 with Amonium Thiocyanide and had miserable results. I was using the Zebra Plates from Lost light Art.
Thank you for any input or suggestions
Hello,
Does anyone have experience with dry plate tintype developing? I’ve tried the new HC 110 with Amonium Thiocyanide and had miserable results. I was using the Zebra Plates from Lost light Art.
Thank you for any input or suggestions
did you use lee lira's recipe ?
from what it looks like on the zebra plate website
you might be able to substitute 5ml many stock developers with 3g of thiocyanate in 300ml of water
rockland colloid used to use Dektol as their stock developer to mix in the thiocyanate into
( the site owner uses LQN )
if you click on time of development drop down
https://zebradryplates.com/how-to-use-zebra-dry-plate-tintypes/
it lists the Lee Lira's developer as well as the rockland developer
if you find a copy of the darkroom cookbook and Jill Enfield's book
you can also find a few developers in there too ( I don't have either books sorry )
it can be a finicky process !
did you use lee lira's recipe ?
from what it looks like on the zebra plate website
you might be able to substitute 5ml many stock developers with 3g of thiocyanate in 300ml of water
rockland colloid used to use Dektol as their stock developer to mix in the thiocyanate into
( the site owner uses LQN )
if you click on time of development drop down
https://zebradryplates.com/how-to-use-zebra-dry-plate-tintypes/
it lists the Lee Lira's developer as well as the rockland developer
if you find a copy of the darkroom cookbook and Jill Enfield's book
you can also find a few developers in there too ( I don't have either books sorry )
it can be a finicky process !
Thank you, I’ll take a look
Thank you, I’ll take a look
if I can ask, what was bad about the results, could it have been exposure related and not developer related ?
if you can do a test strip with a plate and a dark slide in front of the lens ( when I make my own I coat a few sheets of paper or a 4x5 metal plate cut small stick them in a 35 mm camera and do a test strip like that, foma emulsion is sold cheaply in the clearance bin at freestyle from time to time ( last I bought it it was 35$ for the 2KG jug ), makes it easy to do test strips and even coating your own :) ). that way you can see what happens when you expose a little more or less ...
you probably know this already but in case you don't, basically what the developers do is they develop the mid tones slowly (it's really dilute developer ) and the ammonia from the thiocyanate bleaches (some old formulae use straight ammonia they really smell bad )and dicroric-fogs the black tones of the image so it is whiter/off white-creamier and the clear has no inversion because the black of the plate ( clear metal plate like white on film base ) so the black of backing behind the glass shows the black tones ... dry plates/SG-ambro/ferrotypes are great in open shade and can be kind of difficult in high contrast light... it's always an adventure shooting ortho glass and paper.
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