Another Billy the Kid plate?

[goamules]

I see my old town has found another, they believe. What do you think? I used to live in las Cruces, right across the road from my house, in the desert was where Pat Garrett was shot and killed too.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/29/newly-discovered-image-shows-billy-kid-claims-historian/?intcmp=features

[William Whitaker]

I think it's Uncle Earl.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, being announced on Fox News, I suspect Billy the Kid is now a member of the House of Representatives espousing certain libertarian and firearms rights views....
but I'm about two inches from getting banned for politics, so you can fill in the details ....

[goamules]

Well, if I could close my own thread I would. No commentary about the actual plate, history, process has been made. This forum is really in the doldrums.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Could be him! He certainly wasn't camera shy.

FWIW, las Cruces was our second favorite road trip from my home in Roswell, NM.
The first was a short trip to Ruidoso.

[Brian Bullen]

I think it's him, judging from the shape of the ears in the confirmed photo and this new one, it appears to be the same ��

[Stepmccarty]

I see my old town has found another, they believe. What do you think? I used to live in las Cruces, right across the road from my house, in the desert was where Pat Garrett was shot and killed too.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/29/newly-discovered-image-shows-billy-kid-claims-historian/?intcmp=features
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/DanDedrick.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/DanDedrick.jpg.html)
Neither are the kid or Dan Dedrick. Billy had clear blue eyes but dark wavy, almost curly hair. Dedrick had narrow, dark eyes. Sallie Chisum collected a tintype of Dan Dedrick. I wonder if it was taken when the famous Upham photo of the kid was taken, because the two tintypes look similar. Neither are in very good condition. I suspect the tintyper wasn't very skilled. Here is Sallie's photograph of who I suspect is Dan.

[goamules]

I forgot about this post I started years ago. But I did see that tintype the past few weeks, when I was researching the "new" find where Billy is playing crochet.

I thought the photo I referenced has been authenticated, but looking it up again, I'm not seeing that for sure.

[Stepmccarty]

I forgot about this post I started years ago. But I did see that tintype the past few weeks, when I was researching the "new" find where Billy is playing crochet.

I thought the photo I referenced has been authenticated, but looking it up again, I'm not seeing that for sure.

Having a photograph authenticated is extremely difficult. Few "experts" want to do it because the liability issue looms.

[Stepmccarty]

Here is a tintype photograph of Billy the Kid. It was probably taken on the morning of 27 December 1880. Billy is in his jail cell and is posed close to the camera's lens. Jail cells not being very wide. He is cooperating, holding very still. I believe this photograph was taken to act as a "mug shot". Sallie Chisum owned this photo and I found it in a local antique store. It has been tinted so that Billy's eyes show blue and match his tie.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/OlderKid-1-2.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/OlderKid-1-2.jpg.html)

[Stepmccarty]

Billy and three other men were captured on 22 December 1880 while they were hiding out in an old stone hut by Pat Garrett and a small posse. The men had been on the run for some weeks and were pretty filthy. They were cleaned up and given new suits. Here we see Billy sporting his new duds. He was proud of that watch. It was probably the only thing of any value that he ever owned. A young doctor named Hoyt went west to have some adventure. He met the kid and they became friends. Hoyt wrote a book about his experiences. He described Billy's eyes as being blue with brown rings around the cornea and little dark specs in them. If you can enlarge this image and look at his eyes, they look just as Dr. Hoyt described them.

[Stepmccarty]

I own the original of this tintype. Here I have reversed it, so that Billy is oriented as in life. He parted his hair on the left. Sallie Chisum owned this photo. It went to her brother's daughter who stored it in her attic in Baker, Oregon. After her death her home was opened and its contents sold. Sallie's collection of tintypes was in that lot. I found them in a local antique store. I drove to Baker and met Sallie's family.....several generations down. They recalled her collection and wanted to know how I had acquired it. I told them I found it in an antique store and then they recalled the yard sale years ago. Sallie's collection was considered of little import. The photographs, mostly tintypes were dropped into old pink donut boxes and sold with old wrapping paper, ribbons, etc... I walked into that store and recognized the subjects of many of the photographs! Some took a lot of study to ID.

[Stepmccarty]

As you view this photo of the Kid, you can see that his hair was quite dark brown and wavy. It fell in ringlets around his neck and ears. If he had time to think about it, he closed his lips over his buck teeth. It looks to me that he has shifted his head back a little to rest against the wall to help him steady himself. His suit looks at least one size too large. Stuck to the back of this tintype is another photograph, but the top has been torn away. That might have been Billy too. Billy Bonney, aka William Henry McCarty, aka Henry Antrim, aka Billy the Kid, liked to have his picture taken. He was a "ham" and enjoyed being the center of attention.

[Stepmccarty]

Along with the kid, Garrett captured three others. Before they surrendered he shot and killed one of Billy's best friends, a fellow named Charlie Bowdre. Early in the morning Charlie had stepped from the hut to feed the horses, who were tied to the rafters and standing outside. Garrett, who knew Charlie well, shot him square in the middle of his chest with a high powered rifle and from close range. Here is Charlie. The tintype was probably taken a few years earlier and obviously before he grew his mustache.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection014.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection014.jpg.html)

[Stepmccarty]

Here Charlie is about 30 years old. He was married. He and Billy planned to partner in a ranch. The men who fought in the Lincoln County War were young men. Not unlike soldiers of today.

[Stepmccarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/JonScottandFamily107.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/JonScottandFamily107.jpg.html)

I do know own the original of this tintype. The original is a 5x7. This I photographed from the internet. I called its owner and asked him if he knew who these people were. He did not. I told them they are Deluvina Maxwell, the Kid and Paulita Maxwell. Then he told me he had sold the picture! So this wonderful photo is in the wind once again. He looks like he does in my mug shot of him doesn't he.

Note the tinted watch chain. Billy may be wearing the same vest that he is wearing in his mug shot. I think he is standing along the banks of the Pecos River. As the story goes he and Paulita were planning to elope to Old Mexico. Billy spoke perfect Spanish. Deluvina on the left, was a former Navajo slave who was now a servant in the Maxwell household. She was also crazy about the Kid. Paulita was 3/4 French. Here she is 16. She lived well into the 20th Century. A few months after the Kid's death she gave birth to a boy, who looked suspiciously like the kid. Right after the Kid was killed she immediately married....it was not a happy union.

[Stepmccarty]

It is funny how the trio picture came to light. A young women in Germany found it! She called someone who put her in touch with me. She told me how to find the photo on the Web and I looked it up. It was found in the town where the photographer lived...that is the man who took this picture. His name was George W. Morgan. I drove to that town and in the Historical Society there found his personal photo album and scores more of his photographs! Like, how neat is that! Morgan ran his photo studio from a wagon between the years 1871 and 1882 when he modernized his technique and stopped making tintypes. He retired in 1890 and died in 1904. He was raised in the same county as John S. Chisum and I wonder if they knew one another. During the brutal winters in Wisconsin he must have traveled south to work his trade in the warmer climes. I found photos in mats in both locations with his name embossed along the bottom.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/BillyBonney.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/BillyBonney.jpg.html)

[Stepmccarty]

Billy the Kid, who is the subject of the above tintype was never close to Viroqua, Wisconsin. So the photographer must have gone to him!

I found the attached tintype in Viroqua. Hmmm; do you see the connection?

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/BTKandGWMorganpics085-Copy.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/BTKandGWMorganpics085-Copy.jpg.html)

BTW: this is John Middleton once again. He was never in Wisconsin either, but his photograph ended up there. I found it in what must be Morgan's personal album. Here is the photo stuck in that album. I found these two photographs about 1500 miles apart.

Photographs that illustrate a story are my favorite. The story Sallie Chisum's photographs tell is one of the most famous in our Old West. I feel honored to own her collection. Oh, when I found that picture of the kid in its mat, I took it to the owner of the shop and said, "I think this is a picture of Billy the Kid". She replied, "That's nice, he is six dollars and fifty cents." I paid cash.

[nede]

Marvelous story!

[Stepmccarty]

Nede, since you have registered some interest I'll show you some more photographs....again almost all are tintypes and tiny. Billy the Kid may not have been pure as the driven snow, but he did have a sense of justice and the murder of his employer, the Englishmen John H. Tunstall peaked his sense of injustice. He plotted to and then killed, along with five others one of the men responsible for the injustice in the town of Lincoln. His name was William Brady, called by locals "Major" Brady. Sallie Chisum somehow got hold of his picture and I found it. Here is, and by far, the best photograph of William Brady. The kid was finally arrested and tried for Brady's murder. Billy was sentence to hang, but he killed his two guards and escaped only to be killed himself by Sheriff Pat Garrett four months lahttp://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Dolan%20Men/WmBrady-1.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Dolan%20Men/WmBrady-1.jpg.html)ter.

I have reversed this copy of the original so Brady appears as he looked in life. He has an elaborate haircut. He liked wearing loud ties. If one looks closely one can see his Masonic Emblem dangling from his belt. The Angelo's in Lincoln formed a Masonic Temple to keep the Spanish speaking people out. Masons were not Catholic and the Spanish speakers were, of course.

[Stepmccarty]

As many cowpokes know it is often more comfortable to move one's belt buckle aside when riding a horse. Here Brady has done just that. He is posed outdoors. Photo was taken ca. 1877. Sallie Chisum owned it. It is quite small maybe 2.5 inches high. Brady had been a soldier and one can see his "military bearing" in his pose.

[Pierre 2]

I also find these stories and pictures fascinating, even though I am somewhat remote from that way of life (my closest encounters with the wild West were watching "the Grand Chaparral" and a visit a few years ago to the site where that TV series was filmed - The site didn't bring back so many memories but finding the complete series on youtube in spanish did !)

Thanks for sharing those pictures AND the product of you research. Looking forward to any upcoming picture and comments / observations you will provide.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Very much enjoying this thread.

[Stepmccarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection061.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection061.jpg.html)

This is a detail of the larger image. For over a century historians have been searching for a photograph of a living, breathing Dirty Dave Rudabaugh. He rode with Billy during the kids final escapades. The only other pictures of Dirty Dave are of his decapitated head, one with it on the end of a pole. Dave was one of the meanest killers in the Old West and here he is shortly after his capture, along with the kid. Both men were jailed and given new suits to be presentable for trial. I have already posted a picture of the kid in his and here we see Dave. When captured he had a full beard. He doesn't look too happy does he. I think he has a cut lip. A crowd tried to grab him and lynch the guy after he was captured. Sallie Chisum owned this photograph, a tintype.

[ImSoNegative]

Very much enjoying this thread.

++1

[Bob Salomon]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection061.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/Newgroupingofcollection061.jpg.html)

This is a detail of the larger image. For over a century historians have been searching for a photograph of a living, breathing Dirty Dave Rudabaugh. He rode with Billy during the kids final escapades. The only other pictures of Dirty Dave are of his decapitated head, one with it on the end of a pole. Dave was one of the meanest killers in the Old West and here he is shortly after his capture, along with the kid. Both men were jailed and given new suits to be presentable for trial. I have already posted a picture of the kid in his and here we see Dave. When captured he had a full beard. He doesn't look too happy does he. I think he has a cut lip. A crowd tried to grab him and lynch the guy after he was captured. Sallie Chisum owned this photograph, a tintype.

Then whose picture is on his Wikapedia page?

[goamules]

Somehow I am having difficulty believing you are finding all these Billy the Kid photos. Why have I never heard of any of them, other than the 2013 find, since deemed not real? For 50 years the story has been there is only one or two known, authenticated photos. So far you have shown at least four, that you claim are Billy the Kid. Do you have any proof, besides "it looks kinda like him?"

Authentication is done all the time, there are no "liability issues". The only issue is to wrongly authenticate something, then have it proven false. That only hurts the authentication reputation, or anyone who buys false items.

Not trying to pick a fight, but when someone appears on a forum, with no real name or introduction, and starts providing a lot of "holy grail" photos that have been looked for for generations, it requires more proof.

[Stepmccarty]

Thanks Goamules for responding to my posts of BTK pictures. I was surprised that so few of the experts would accept my photos as legit. While some of he great writers, Bob Utley and Leon Metz believe my photos are authentic...a few others too, but Nolan, MaCubbin and BBB do not....at least not officially. I picked up the pictures exactly as I said I did, in a stack and in bins in an antique store. I also traced the ownership back to Sallie Chisum's brother's family, who had forgotten the identities of the people and sold the collection in a yard sale. They ended up in a little store less than a mile from my home. I interviewed Sallie's brother's family. They still have all kinds of Chisum related artifacts and many photographs including some wonderful ones of the Long House at the South Springs Ranch. You have not seen or heard about these pictures because no magazine has agreed to publish them. They refuse to believe them. But I own an amazingly complete and clear set of Chisum and Billy the Kid related photographs!

I am going to attach Sallie's picture, that I own of Frank Coe. There is no mistaking Frank. If one of them is right then all are, since they came from the same place.http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/FrankCoe003.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/FrankCoe003.jpg.html)

Frank Coe:

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks Goamules for responding to my posts of BTK pictures. I was surprised that so few of the experts would accept my photos as legit. While some of he great writers, Bob Utley and Leon Metz believe my photos are authentic...a few others too, but Nolan, MaCubbin and BBB do not....at least not officially. I picked up the pictures exactly as I said I did, in a stack and in bins in a antique store. I also traced the ownership back to Sallie Chisum's brother's family, who had forgotten the identities of the people and sold the collection in a yard sale. They ended up in a little store less than a mile from my home. I interviewed Sallie's brother's family. They still have all kinds of Chisum related artifacts and many photographs including some wonderful ones of the Long House at the South Springs Ranch. You have not seen or heard about these pictures because no magazine has agreed to publish them. They refuse to believe them. But I own an amazingly complete and clear set of Chisum and Billy the Kid related photographs!

You should go to Las Vegas (NV not NM) and go to the Gold and Silver pawn shop. They will get them authenticated and pay you a small fortune!

But you would not be the first!

[Stepmccarty]

I took eight of the photos with me to Bob Boze Bell's offices in Cave Creek, AZ. He said to me that he gets requests to authenticate Billy pictures constantly. When I spoke to him I had not yet found the Chisum family here in Oregon, so I had no provenance. Today I do. I talk with BBB via his web site from time to time but he is not encouraging. But I have the pictures. Owning them is amazing, at least to me. Frankly, I don't know what to do about them. Book is writ. So is a smaller Costco book. I know what the kid and his pals looked like when he knew them. I have photos of some Regulators that no others have....hard to ID those...

Anyway, thanks for your interest and advice.

[Stepmccarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/JimFrench.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/JimFrench.jpg.html)

So, I ran across this tintype in Sallie's collection. It is the same size and condition as the other pictures. So who can this guy be? I actually have two pictures of the same bloke. The man is a monster. Look at his huge hands. It looks like a Morgan tintype and Sallie owned this photo. He is probably Big Jim French. There are no other photos of him. Is it he? Well, probably. If you look at the often published well known picture taken of the cowboys in the side yard next to the Long House, you will see this same fellow sitting in the middle of the cowboys. Sallie owned this photo. She knew Big Jim well, he was her bodyguard. He was a friend of the kid and a Regulator.... it is most likely Big Jim, and now we know what he looked like! That's neat.

[Stepmccarty]

BTW: if you see a tintype with a fold, as this one has, it has probably been dropped. I can't recall if I have dropped this tintype or not, but someone did. If you drop one it does not flutter down like a leaf, rather is goes down like a knife blade and falls directly down and lands on its edge. It bends when it hits.

[Bob Salomon]

I would call a hand, positioned facing the camera like that, foreshortening. Do you really believe that his hand is longer then his face?

[Stepmccarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/BTKandGWMorganpics040.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/BTKandGWMorganpics040.jpg.html)

I found five tintypes of this fellow. Three of the have G.W. Morgan's name on the mat. I found them in Morgan's personal photo album that I found in the historical society in his hometown. I also found a tintype of John Middleton. He and this fellow had been painting/drawing directly on their photos. Middleton and Frank McNab were close friends. Middleton was considering joining McNab as a cattle detective. The men were drawing disguises on their photos....probably joking as they did. Anyway this picture shows McNab the best of the lot. What a nice looking young man! He was murdered soon after Dick Brewer. This is probably Frank McNab. There are no other photos of him...so my id is kind of a guess. Oh, you see that bow tie? It is the same one the kid and Charlie Bowdre are wearing!

[Stepmccarty]

I have been sharing this picture for some years now and I have seen it published here and there. I don't know who is in the Wilapedia page. I'll have to look it up.

Late entry: I just went to Wilapedia and looked at their picture of Dirty Dave. I don't think that is him. I believe my photo. I don't recall ever seeing that picture before. Of course, it could be and I am wrong, but it came packaged with the pic of Billy in his new suite and Sallie owned it....I am going with my photo, but I'll accept that I could be wrong. I like how mean my guy looks. If anything Dirty Dave Rudabaugh was one mean dude and he was captured at Stinking Springs along with the kid and Billy Wilson. All three men were given new suits.

[Stepmccarty]

A lens about 2" in diameter. A depth of field of about zilch. I see foreshortening in the photo too. I am not sure how those tintype cameras affected the image. They can be amazingly clear....no grain at all. In some of my pictures I can see the reflection of the tintyper in the pupil of the subject's eye! They pixilate, however. People are making tintypes again and I think there is a good reason for it. Tintypes are honest, yet stone faced images. No one can "ham" for a tintyper. I think they are wonderful.

[Stepmccarty]

I hope that I am not boring everyone. I have shown tintypes of Billy and who I believe is Dirty Dave. The men were given new suits after they were captured. I think they were photographed when they had their handcuffs removed to change into their new suits. Wilson was described as not a big man, blond, and "depressed". He was allowed to walk around in the alley with the deputies. Dave and the kid were locked in their cells. Here is who must be Billy Wilson and this is the only picture of the fellow. He was in his mid - 20's.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/010.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/010.jpg.html)

Do you see that doo hicky setting on the brim of his hat? Those are his handcuffs and what I think are "maken's".

[goamules]

BTW: if you see a tintype with a fold, as this one has, it has probably been dropped. I can't recall if I have dropped this tintype or not, but someone did. If you drop one it does not flutter down like a leaf, rather is goes down like a knife blade and falls directly down and lands on its edge. It bends when it hits.

I shoot tintypes, and have a lot of old ones. They are thick (steel in the old days, alum now), and do NOT bend if "dropped". The edges were chopped for a reason, I'll have to ask John Coffer or one of the real tintype experts I know.

[Stepmccarty]

I can tell you for a fact that if you drop a tintype that it lands on its edge and will develop a fold. I have done it to one of mine and it made a pretty severe crinkle int he iron plate. These old tintypes were actually very thin sheets of polished iron. I am going to post the tintype that I dropped.

Here is an interesting tintype that I dropped onto a hard floor. You can see the crinkle that runs across the photo at about the subject's head. The lady, btw; is Matilda Davis and there is another photo to match this one too. She was a former lover of Dick Brewer. She jilted him and married his cousin. He lived for another decade. Sallie owned this photograph. I suspect that Dick gave it to her before his death. Anyway it is a nice tintype and I screwed it up by dropping it.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection103.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection103.jpg.html)

If you study this tintype closely you will see that she is looking directly into the camera's lens. I thought this was unique, but since have seen several tintypes that employ this technique. There is a famous photo of George Custer who is posed the same way. The young ladie's stare looks straight threw you. She was a beauty and one can see why she broke Brewer's heart.

[Stepmccarty]

The picture of Matilda is a tintype and did not have its corners clipped. it was in better condition until I dropped it and that dent that runs crosswise through the her head. It cannot be removed. I have tried to do it, but I treat these old photographs delicately.

[goamules]

...

If you study this tintype closely you will see that she is looking directly into the camera's lens. I thought this was unique, but since have seen several tintypes that employ this technique. There is a famous photo of George Custer who is posed the same way. The young ladie's stare looks straight threw you. She was a beauty and one can see why she broke Brewer's heart.

Looking into a camera's lens unique? ....no, often studios posed people looking into the lens, from the Daguerrotype period on. Here is one from my collection where the subject is looking directly into the camera lens. I believe she might be a young Annie Oakley, with a silver award plate.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8554/8708589536_8f8b111bae_c.jpg

[Steven Tribe]

Whatever the historical/mythological value of this series, it is of great interest to see a related group of tin types. The few tin types I have come across have been bare metal examples without the paper framing giving some information about the photographer/studio.

[blueribbontea]

Here is a tintype photograph of Billy the Kid. It was probably taken on the morning of 27 December 1880. Billy is in his jail cell and is posed close to the camera's lens. Jail cells not being very wide. He is cooperating, holding very still. I believe this photograph was taken to act as a "mug shot". Sallie Chisum owned this photo and I found it in a local antique store. It has been tinted so that Billy's eyes show blue and match his tie.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/OlderKid-1-2.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/OlderKid-1-2.jpg.html)

Awfully nice lighting for a jail cell. Looks more like a studio shot with a skylight.

[Stepmccarty]

This is a modern tintype. (referring to the girl holding the .22 rifle.) I like it though. Her dress is wrong and so is her hair. Nineteenth Century girls did not allow their hair to flow loose. The guns are kinda neat, but I have never seen an antique tintype that has guns placed as these are. If it was an old photo the canvas backdrop would probably have a pattern on it. The lattice is new. The Marlin shotgun is probably an 1895, the .22 Winchester is a 20th Century weapon. I cannot recall the model number...., but I own one like it. It has the take down screw. I can't tell how old the Sharps is but I am guessing that it is a modern rifle too. The gunbelt looks antique and I'd guess the pistol is a Smith and Wesson No. 3. In the 19th Century people often had their photos taken with guns that they got from the photographer. I have never seen a real 19th Century girl posed with a hat like she has. Photographs like this one take a lot of skill to produce and this is a nice one, but not antique. There is a book of modern cowboys photographed in tintype published by Bright Sky Press. I have a copy - interesting.

[Stepmccarty]

This tintype, (the one in the jail cell) I own the original, was probably taken in Billy's jail cell, the lightening enhanced by a reflector of some sort, the light source coming thru an open door. The background is consistent with that of a 19th Century jail cell. Note the texture of the wall. Just try to find a suit like that today! I found this tintype along with others including many folks from Sallie Chisum's family. Billy's eyes look perfect and as described. The tintype was torn from some kind of a book/album and it is stuck to another photo behind it that I cannot free. The original is small. Tiny. It rests easily in the palm of the hand.

[Stepmccarty]

Here is the full sized tintype of Dirty Dave Rudabaugh. This shows as the tintype does, so it is reversed from life. Dirty Dave is again wearing his new suit. He was described as having straight brown hair that turned up at it's tips. Yep, this is the Dirty One. He was a big time killer. This photo was probably taken in 1880. He died in 1887....or was it 1886. I forgot. Look how he has torn his paper collar open. Looks like Dave wasn't used to wearing collars and suits.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/DirtyDaveRudabaugh-1.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/DirtyDaveRudabaugh-1.jpg.html)

[Stepmccarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/MaybeDocSurlock.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/MaybeDocSurlock.jpg.html)

Okay, Billy the Kid fans here is one of the most famous Regulators. He was an early leader of the gang taking command after Dick Brewer and Frank McNab were killed. Here is Joshia "Doc" Scurlock. He was an interesting guy. At about the time this photo was taken(I own the original), he had been in a fight during a poker game and someone shot out his front teeth. If you look closely you can see his collapsed upper lip and maybe a scar here and there. Eventually his jaw collapsed totally, but here it hasn't adjusted to the lack of his front teeth. He left the kid, moved to Texas and had a slew of kids. He became an intellectual and wrote poetry. He never discussed his wild and woolly times riding with the kid. When young he was known as a hell raiser. Today the Scurlock family laud his memory.

When this tintype was made "Doc" was a killer and you had best not mess with him.

[Stepmccarty]

This fellow is the least popular Regulator. This is Robert Widenmann. His existence was not known until the letters that John Tunstall wrote to his parents were studied. This guy's relationship with Tunstall was described at the time as "unhealthy".....you can http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/GWMorganpics015.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/GWMorganpics015.jpg.html) draw your own conclusions. After Tunstall's death Widenmann traveled to London and lived in the Tunstall household sleeping in the late John's bed. The Tunstall family had to drive him away. He moved to New York State, married, had children, divorced and became a drunk.

[Stepmccarty]

In the saga of Billy the Kid there are some folks who are little known by other than those who seriously study the event. One of those guys was a 15 year old Spanish Speaking guy named Yginio Salazar. Yginio was a good friend of the kid. Billy loved the company of the Spanish speaking community in Lincoln. The Angloes called them "Mexicans" but they were actually of Spanish heritage, related to the conquestioners (sp?) who had passed through the country 400 years prior. Spanish speakers living in New Mexico are not "Mexicans", they are, rather ancient "New Mexicans". Yginio and the kid were pals and Billy visited his Spanish speaking pal after he murdered his two guards and escaped from the Lincoln County Jail. I found this tintype in Sallie's collection. Yginio was shot in the head when Alexander McSween was killed. He was left for dead, but he crawled the quarter mile to his parent's home. Here we see him and the scar on his forehead probably come from the battle that nearly killed him.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/YginioSalazar001.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/YginioSalazar001.jpg.html)

[djdister]

conquestioners (sp?)

Conquistadors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador)

[civich]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/OlderKid-1-2.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Regulators/OlderKid-1-2.jpg.html)[/QUOTE]

Fascinating thread. This and the PBS documentary provide a new perspective on the "Kid". What a convoluted story the Lincoln County wars and it's characters must have been - thuggery was fluid and it occurred on both sides of the law. I'll have to do some research - any reading recommendations?
Oh - and I nominate Benedict Cumberbatch to play the Kid in the new movie.....

[Stepmccarty]

Thank you. I figured if I put in enough C's and Q's that people would figure out who I meant.

[Stepmccarty]

Considering books about BTK. Walter Nobel Burns wrote the first one, "The Saga of Billy the Kid". Written, as I recall in 1926. The interesting thing about his book is that Burns interviewed many people who knew the kid, including Sallie Chisum, who died in 1934. So the Burns book rings true. It was that book that made Billy famous. Lily Casey who knew the kid and wasn't a fan of his, hired two ghost writers to put together a book about her days in Lincoln. Sallie Chisum gave Lily her notes that she had gather when she was thinking about writing a book. Lily's "papers" became her book, edited by Eve Ball entitled "My Girlhood Among the Outlaws". It is an interesting read. Here and there it rings true, but lilies memory was flawed. My favorite book is Robert Utley's "The Short and Violent Life of Billy the Kid. Written in 1984 the book has the advantage of research and a great writer. Lastly Fred Nolan's books are invaluable. He is an Englishmen who somehow became enamored by the Kid's story. After you get started you will find many other books. I think I have read them all. What do you want to know?

[Stepmccarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Dolan%20Men/SCcollection1053.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Dolan%20Men/SCcollection1053.jpg.html)

Here is a little tintype that I passed over several times when searching in the shelves and bins in the store where I found Sallie Chisum's collection. I decided to buy it because it looked about right and the price was okay ...$4.50. After some searching and looking I figured out that the man is Robert "Bob" Olinger. In Lily Casey's book "My Girlhood Among the Outlaws" she reports that she was engaged to marry Bob Olinger, but darn it all, the kid killed him before the blessed event could take place. Lily was 16 years old at the time. Is the lady Lily? I am going to post a well know picture of Mr. Olinger. You can decide if the two pictures are of the same fella. I am convinced they are.

[Stepmccarty]

Here is a copy of a well known and often published photo of Bob Olinger. You can match this photo with mine that I posted above. Notice how he liked to sit with his ankles crossed. Billy killed this man, shooting him from an upstairs window in the Lincoln County Courthouse.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Dolan%20Men/sourcepics040.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Dolan%20Men/sourcepics040.jpg.html)

BTW: look at the watch fob....I think they are the same item.

[ImSoNegative]

Im not sure if they are the same man, the man in you tintype has a more rounded jaw, the other fellow's seems a bit more squared, could be the way the head is tilted in the tintype though,

[Andrew O'Neill]

Nose and ear are not the same. The fobs are different, too. Really enjoying this thread, though.

[Stepmccarty]

The manner in which the guy planted himself in his chair makes me think they are the same fellow. I also believe that the fact that he has crossed his ankles is an indicator that they two men are the same gent. Sallie Chisum collected my photograph. Sure she would collect a pic of Olinger. She would have known him. Funny thing is that all of the participants in the Lincoln County War knew one another and some were probably friends from time to time.

[Stepmccarty]

Here is Lily Casey's picture. I can't tell if she is the same lady in the photo of the two people...who I think are Lily and Olinger. Now I will grant you that this picture of Lily does not look a lot like the lady in the photo of the duo, but ancient tintypes are like that. This is Lily Casey Klasner and Sallie owned it.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/LilyCasey.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Chisum%20Family/LilyCasey.jpg.html)

[Stepmccarty]

Here is a wonderful tintype. You can tell, I think, that it is a 1/8th plate. The man is Juan Patron and his wife Beatriz. The young women is probably one of his two daughters. Juan was a good friend of the Kid. Patron was the leader of the Hispanic community in Lincoln. Billy stayed in Patron's back room for a few weeks when the kid was waiting for his pardon...it never came.http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection104.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Chisum%20Family/Newgroupingofcollection104.jpg.html)

[ImSoNegative]

I think the ladies look very much the same, mouth and nose looks the same, the later tin looks like she was younger.

[Stepmccarty]

If the lady in the photograph with Olinger is indeed Lily Casey then it adds credence to her statement in her book that she and the deputy were engaged to marry. In the same book she states that she and Olinger had dinner the weekend before his death at the hands of the Kid. Lily lived until 1946 and was one of the last people living who actually knew the kid and she seldom had anything nice to say about the boy. Most people who were interviewed long after his death, specially the Coe cousins talked glowingly about BTK. The kid loved to sit around the camp fire and sing and tell stories. He was good fun to have around and the girls went crazy over him and visa versa. He wasn't very old when he was killed. Most writers pin his death at age 21, but I think he was a bit older than that.

[cowanw]

Here's some on topic news from the Guardian about the croquet plate
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/13/billy-the-kid-croquet-junk-shop-two-dollars

[goamules]

The National Geographic special shows this weekend: Billy the Kid: New Evidence. Should be good.

[LabRat]

Kinda on the subject...

http://historical.ha.com/itm/photography/official-photos/jesse-james-a-rare-original-mounted-albumen-post-mortem-photo/a/6152-51061.s?ctrack=2943538&type=featured-8-historical--open-6152--tem101315

Steve K

[bobwysiwyg]

The National Geographic special shows this weekend: Billy the Kid: New Evidence. Should be good.

Only if one cares.. :rolleyes:

[ImSoNegative]

Here's some on topic news from the Guardian about the croquet plate
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/13/billy-the-kid-croquet-junk-shop-two-dollars

it says that photograph was taken in the summer of 1878 after a wedding, why are there no leaves on the trees? on any tree in the photograph. that is odd

[Drew Wiley]

What I find so fascinating is that they were playing croquet. Nice people.

[ImSoNegative]

Yeah drew. In sure they were all a hoot to hang out with :)

[blueribbontea]

http://www.inlander.com/spokane/a-picture-of-the-good-life/Content?oid=2603899
tintype supposedly of Jesse James and Robert Ford found in Spokane, and dreams of a million bucks.

[blueribbontea]

http://media1.fdncms.com/inlander/imager/u/big/2603897/artsculture8-1-d8c9ae724bdcd042.jpg
Jesse JAMES, on the right. Another mythical American gunman/hero who was really a bandit/murderer.

[Stepmccarty]

I saw this photo a week or two ago. Is that really Jesse James on the right? He does look kind of like him. He was a baby faced gent. I like the photograph. The most interesting thing about it to me, is the belt buckle worn by the guy on the left.

[WileECoyote]

Hi Stepmccarty,

I find your collection fascinating! Kudos to you on all of the work you've done with these photos, the history you've collected, the leg work you've done on talking to all of the families, etc. Outstanding.

I've been following your posts on here, in both 'Billy The Kid' discussions, with all of the tintype pics you've posted. They are awesome, and you know so much history behind many of these folks, more than most of us can find just from the books and history out there. Have you ever documented or at least written down in some fashion the knowledge that you have?

I've been trying to find if there has ever been any reproduction/reprint of the Sallie Chisum diaries from the archives they have at the NMSU Library?
(I would so love to be able to read her diaries, as it sounds like there is so much good information she recorded)

I kept hitting on this 'google books' link, which seems to indicate there may have been a printed book actually done of these, but I'm not sure this book actually exists?

https://books.google.com/books/about/Diary_1908_1929_of_Sallie_Chisum_Robert.html?id=C_jxHAAACAAJ

There seems to be a valid 'worldcat' item for this book, and indicates it is at the 'University of Texas' Library... it's a 2-volume book...
(If only I wasn't so far away here on the east coast!!)

http://www.worldcat.org/title/diary-1908-1929-of-sallie-chisum-robert-26-may-1858-2-september-1934-typed-from-the-original-in-the-artesia-historical-museum-and-art-center-artesia-new-mexico-1921-missing/oclc/42845337

Are you at all familiar with any of this?

[Stepmccarty]

I am in comm with a fellow who is systematically reading Sallie's diaries and we discuss what he finds out. They are not perfectly organized. I understand that one can get transcripts thru the U. of Texas. I don't know how to do that however.

Concerning my knowledge of Billy the Kid. I have read and re-read all of the books, that I can find, about the subject. I have talked with several of the writers. I have been to what was old Lincoln County half a dozen times spending about a month around those parts each visit. I have met and spent many hours talking with some of the local experts. I interviewed several people who knew people who knew the kid. There is no one living who actually knew Billy Bonney. The last person who knew the kid died in 1946. If there is someone else who lived longer I don't know about that person. I found Sallie Chisum's collection of pictures and over the almost decade since have studied each person depicted in that collection. Then I found the photographer's personal photo album which had a dozen or more pictures in it, which I was able to photograph. I studied the photographer and the pictures I copied from his album and eventually figured out who they were. That took me nearly a decade.

Walking the ground is very important and one gets the "feel" of the place. So I've been to Anton Chico, Roswell, White Oaks, Porto de Luna, Las Vegas, Lincoln, the river Ruidoso river valley, just to name a few. I've been all thru the buildings in Lincoln several times and over period of around 40 years. My first visit to Fort Sumner and Lincoln was in 1972.

Certainly Fred Nolan knows more about Billy and his surrounds than I do, and so does Steve Sederwall. I can't even start to list all of the research that I done or the number of people I have interviewed. When doing research in the flesh you get a lot of blank stares!

All of that put together I have a pretty good idea what went on way back then. I have known people in Sallie's family and probably Billy's too, all of my life.

I do not call myself expert, but I do call myself pretty knowledgeable.

[Stepmccarty]

I talked with Leon Metz once, we had lunch together in Mesilla. He said that he had written a lot of books, but he was really interested in Billy. He wrote a good book on Garrett.

Billy the kid, for some crazy reason has blown the shirts up of many historians and scholars and I have spent many hours pondering why. Billy would love it, if he knew. Billy Bonney never had much....maybe a nice watch and a pretty good horse and that was about it. I don't think he cared. He was a young fellow and loved adventure. He had a pretty well developed sense of justice. He was loyal almost to a fault. I don't think he thought that he'd be successful and I don't think he cared much. He appreciated life and wanted to enjoy it as long as he could, but I don't think he thought that he would live very long. Billy loved to entertain and to be entertaining. He loved nothing better than to be on stage and he was a wonderful story/joke teller. He loved to sing and dance. He enjoyed the company of Spanish people and loved speaking their language. He found them easy going, and he was easy going.

If Billy had run off to Mexico with Paulita Maxwell would he have been happy? Would he have become a family man, a father and husband? I don't think so. Just like Henry Brown he liked the excitement of committed crimes. He couldn't help himself. He wouldn't have lasted long.

[Wayne]

http://media1.fdncms.com/inlander/imager/u/big/2603897/artsculture8-1-d8c9ae724bdcd042.jpg
Jesse JAMES, on the right. Another mythical American gunman/hero who was really a bandit/murderer.

http://ericjames.org/wordpress/2015/11/01/lost-jesse-jamesbobford-photo-not-lost-not-authenticated/

[John Kasaian]

Sorry, but ever time I see this thread it makes me want to ask: His uppers? Or lowers?:rolleyes:

[Stepmccarty]

If you are alluding to Billy's front teeth, it appears to me that his upper incisors were kind of twisted and one slightly overlapped the other. It was a noticeable deformity and the Coe cousins mentioned it. Billy didn't have too much trouble closing his lips over his teeth and if he gave it a thought, he would do it. He was probably a little embarrassed about his buck teeth.

Billy's jaw was narrow and he did not have much of a chin. Today, his parents would have put braces on his teeth at about age 14. However, he was described as being good looking. He had clear blue eyes and brown wavy hair. He stood up straight and for a guy his size, he was strong and athletic. He was an excellent horsemen and could pick up a handkerchief from the ground at a dead run. To his friends one of his most memorable traits was his light hearted personality. He loved telling stories and jokes around the camp fire. The men used to have "sings". They would gather around Susan McSween's piano and sing their hearts out, Billy having a "clear tenor voice". Frank Coe said that he never knew anyone who was so much fun to be around. He sorely missed the Kid after he was gone.

[Bob Salomon]

If you are alluding to Billy's front teeth, it appears to me that his upper incisors were kind of twisted and one slightly overlapped the other. It was a noticeable deformity and the Coe cousins mentioned it. Billy didn't have too much trouble closing his lips over his teeth and if he gave it a thought, he would do it. He was probably a little embarrassed about his buck teeth.

Billy's jaw was narrow and he did not have much of a chin. Today, his parents would have put braces on his teeth at about age 14. However, he was described as being good looking. He had clear blue eyes and brown wavy hair. He stood up straight and for a guy his size, he was strong and athletic. He was an excellent horsemen and could pick up a handkerchief from the ground at a dead run. To his friends one of his most memorable traits was his light hearted personality. He loved telling stories and jokes around the camp fire. The men used to have "sings". They would gather around Susan McSween's piano and sing their hearts out, Billy having a "clear tenor voice". Frank Coe said that he never knew anyone who was so much fun to be around. He sorely missed the Kid after he was gone.

I think John's comment went right over your head! Or maybe I caught it as my brother in law is a dentist.

[Stepmccarty]

LOL - every now and then things go clean over my head! What was Kasaian talking about anyway?

[Bob Salomon]

LOL - every now and then things go clean over my head! What was Kasaian talking about anyway?

The title of this thread.

[Stepmccarty]

I think the two photos were taken several years apart. In the one with "lily"? Olinger is probably 47, the age he was at his death. He is somewhat younger and darker in the earlier photo. I believe the emblems are the same. Nose and ears match well enough for me.

[WileECoyote]

Hi Stepmccarty,

I've been meaning to ask you, you had mentioned earlier in this thread that
"Book is writ. So is a smaller Costco book." Were you meaning that you wrote a couple books? Are these available somewhere that we could pick up if so?? I'd love to read them, as the leg work you've done is quite impressive!

[Stepmccarty]

I can send you a book for $60 which is almost what they cost me to print. PM me and I'll get you an address.

[Stepmccarty]

Books are written. One is a Costco book full of pictures. They cost $60. It has slick pages. Pictures are nice. They include an explanation. PM me and I'll send you an address to send a check and I'll send you the book.

[WileECoyote]

PM Sent! I'd love to read it

[shootseven]

You don't actually believe the people in these photos are who Stepmccarty claims they are, do you? I hope you're just being nice to Step and didn't throw your money away.

There isn't a historian out there who thinks any of these photographs are authentic.