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alex from holland
26-Aug-2013, 01:26
Hallo all,

Although there is some information on the HERMAGIS serial numbers with matching year of production I need your help.
I found that mentioned list isn't very accurate so I need your input.

If you own a Hermagis, would you be so kind and have a look if there is written any year on the front glass?

Like this one: 100876100877

If so, please post the serial number and year of production.
Thanks for the help.

Alex

alex from holland
26-Aug-2013, 02:24
here are a few other:

13240 1867
14659 1868
16723 1876

Steven Tribe
26-Aug-2013, 03:36
Do you have Corrado's list?

He gives exact dates for quite a lot which may mean the front glass has been looked at!
Remember the Franco-Prussian war which would slowed down production around 1870/71.

13657 1868
15505 1872
15512 1873
16784 1876
16944 1876

Past auctions (Breker etc) will give some more.

alex from holland
26-Aug-2013, 04:23
Thanks Steven.
I haven't checked Corrado's list yet but I will do so.
I assume your first lens is a typo...;)

Alex

goamules
26-Aug-2013, 06:14
Here as some of mine:

14098 - 1868
15067 - 1872
18702 - 1883

Emil Schildt
26-Aug-2013, 08:08
13995 - 1867
44064 - 1907 (? as it only writes 07 in the end of a serial number)
8077 - ? no year written

alex from holland
26-Aug-2013, 09:05
Thank you all.
Just great.
Keep them coming. This indicates that the list needs some fine tuning.....

Steven Tribe
26-Aug-2013, 09:13
It already shows, quite clearly, that the pencil date is to be believed.

Yes 1869 - this is Corrado's listing, I don't own a single Hermagis!
Breker doesn't have any that I can find.

Jim Fitzgerald
26-Aug-2013, 09:21
When I get home today I'll see if I can get the front glass out of my #1. It is the brass F5 one. I'm thinking it is from the 20's.

goamules
26-Aug-2013, 11:08
Thankfully, Hermagis was pretty consistent with using a date, and keeping the serial numbers in sequence for decades.

Marko Trebusak
27-Aug-2013, 08:04
Here is mine:
46028 and year 08 which is in agreament with Patrice H. Pont and Jean Loup Princelle's book, which gives number 35000 for year 1900 and number 50000 for year 1910.
Marko

Amedeus
3-Sep-2013, 12:56
Hermagis Eidoscope #1, f5 #95,567 marked Hermagis Paris Eidoscope 24 on the rear glass.

Emil Schildt
3-Sep-2013, 13:21
eidoscope
3 F5

68363 with 20 written on glass

robk331
5-Sep-2013, 15:07
Here's mine:

SN 15,744 1873

Amedeus
5-Sep-2013, 18:24
Brass Eidoscope #3, f5

58,002 with Hermagis Eidoscope #3 1920 written on front glass and same inscription repeated on the rear glass

Black Eidoscope #4, f5

146,607 with Hermagis Eidoscope #4-29 written on front glass

CCHarrison
18-Sep-2013, 05:42
15,971 = 1874

Two posts above lists 15,744 as 1873 so we can assume that 15,744 is likley from the very end of '73 and that serial # 15,971 is from early '74. It also shows they were making Petzvals at a fairly good clip at this point.

Dan

Steven Tribe
2-Mar-2016, 08:57
Taking delivery of serial no. 7242, which was originally a Convertible Petzval, I note a distinct variation from the numbers and signature styles already listed here. They are below. They were both on the achromat (2 numbers) and the thick concave (1 number).

While checking the other earlier serial numbered Hermagis I find mine is the lowest number. There are 8xxx, 9xxx, 10xxx etc. It looks to me like Hermagis decided to start engraving numbers and decided to start at what they considered to accumulated numbers made to that date (or at a number that customers could accept as being realistic!). I see no connection with dates, but perhaps it relates to the single lens going into the Petzval or an internal stockbook of parts. The numbers are:

209,67. and
14015

By the way, this is a pre-WHS model and the text is written "upside down" compared with other versions of this lens and the signs of the radial drive attachment have been completely removed when a later WHS was made in the sleeve.

I think the odd third number in Gandolfi first list could be using the same system, especialy if it is an early one with no serial number or low number.

Steven Tribe
19-Jun-2017, 04:27
As I have something of a fetish/obsession about serial numbers and dates, I thought I might take up this thread again and see whether it is possible to make a reliable table.

The booklet from Pont et Princelle (2009) says that earliest serial number (engraved on brass) they know of is 3,670. Whether the earlier lenses without serial numbers represent just Hermagis or Hermagis + Wallet et Hermagis + Derogy et Hermagis, is an open question.

P et P give the following rough table.


+/- 8000 +/- 1860
12000. 1870
20000. 1890
35000. 1900
50000. 1910
65000. 1920
100000. 1925
130000. 1926
150000. 1928
200000. 1932
220000. 1934

We can easily improve on this with data we already have!

The reason I have awoken this thread is that I have just bought this CdeV Hermagis Petzval.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222525242693?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

This is, apparently, without a serial number (on the sleeve, anyway!) and has an undescribed (as far as I can find out) front washer aperture insert.

Jim Fitzgerald
19-Jun-2017, 10:56
Steven, If it helps my #1 is 73982 which puts in in the 1921-22 range. I'll have to check my #2.

Steven Tribe
21-Jun-2017, 13:53
This is the first attempt at a table. It is nice that there is no contradictory data!

XXXX no brass serial number, "12 cent" on rear convex/concave. no. 7 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
YYYY no brass serial number. Many numbers. no. 9 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
ZZZZ no brass serial number, lens edges not seen- missing rear cell. size no.6?. blackened paper behind rack

3670 early number noted by P et P. The photograph shows this is a modified sleeve. The pinion has been moved to the other side of the sleeve and the WHS cut-out has been made where the pinion was mounted. It appears the sleeve was originally as XXXX, YYYY etc.

Start of Serial numbers. 6285 ( and 7010) are engraved with the granted Patent, which was in July 1856. So 6285 cannot be before 1856. I venture to suggest that comprensive serial number engraving was begun at the same time this was granted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2163) Small Convert. Petzval no data on lens,patent engraving - impossible serial no.?

(3670) P et P image plain Petzval

6285 many digits, but no date - barrel engravings. Convertible
6872 digits but no date. barrel engraving Convertible#
7004. no date but signature on lens - sleeve engraving. Convertible
7010. P et P illustration p.8 - barrel engraving. Convertible.
7242 many digits, but no obvious date. Convertible. No. 4.
8154. only hermagis on achromat. address and 1859 on rear. no.3 convertible
8268. catawiki auction huge ordinary Petzval with bayonnet rear pair
8745. D'Agostini
8077 many digits, no obvious date
9277 Convert no.7
9305 P et P
9335 Convert. no. 4
9787 Ebay january 2018 Convert. no.4. turner/Finisher names initials. No numbers.
9804. D'Agostini
9888. Convertible size (private info)

10251 P et P
10417 Ebay august 2017 large convertible sleeve engraved
10776. P et P
10922 D'Agostini
11228. ebay june 2017
11272. P et P. stereo
11824 Breker auction

Start of dating of lenses?

12421. P et P
13240 1867
13657 1868
13864. 1867 70mm lens diameter #6 size convert
13995 1867
14098 1868
14444. 1868. convert.
14659. 1868

Franco-Prussian war!

15067. 1872
15463. P et P
15505. 1872
15512. 1873
15744. 1873
15971. 1874
15974. 1874
15981 1874
16215. 1875
16457. 1876
16723. 1876
16784. 1876
16944. 1876
17025. P et P

18635 1880 These two lenses suggest that there may have been a stock of lenses with
18702. 1883. their completion date added, but serial numbers were added later.
19411. 1884. Large plain Petzval

24312. (1)891 These are the final digits in a long series. Matches with production levels - of the late 80's early 90's.



BOLD serial numbers are those added in 2018. Thanks!


The remaining 6 are from the 20th century.

It is obvious that the P et P table is very wrong about a serial number of 12,000 in 1870

andrewch59
23-Jun-2017, 06:10
Hi Steven, thankyou for the info on my lens 18635 Convertible Petzval, it has (15 & 30-80) inscribed on the element opposite Hermagis oi' Paris if that helps

Steven Tribe
23-Jun-2017, 06:34
I will adding a new one soon. Thanks for yours too, Andrew!!

I'll start a new list soon based on the other digit markings (Typically, xxxxx. xxxx - xxx). I think it must have something to do with the model/size/focal length - so it may be without a solution unless we are very lucky. For instance, data from two identical lenses.

Steven Tribe
26-Jun-2017, 03:50
I have updated the Hermagis serial number list. Post #20.

There are some surprising gaps, apart from the Franco-Prussian conflict period.


I have now looked at the pre serial number engraving Hermagis Plain Petzval which looks absolutely kosher.
The engraving and position is exactly the same as 7274, just without the serial number. The lens edges are signed Hermagis and there is a single clue "12 cent".

A bit off the theme in this thread, it has a special front insert for the lens hood for washer stops. With velvet seals inside the lens hood. Most of these must have been thrown away when they were converted to WHS.

alex from holland
26-Jun-2017, 13:18
Thank Steven for all tbe work!!

Regarding to your new Hermagis.
Are you sure it's something originally made by Hermagis?
I have never seen it before.

Steven Tribe
26-Jun-2017, 14:15
Thank Steven for all tbe work!!

Regarding to your new Hermagis.
Are you sure it's something originally made by Hermagis?
I have never seen it before.

I am absolutely certain.

The internal fitting washer stop holder is obviously professionally made and fits perfectly in the brass hood.
Hermagis were mostly busy with their patent "double ended" convertible at this time (say, 1856-1860) and production of "normal" Petzvals was quite small.

If you look at page 6 in P et P, you will see a selection of these simple Petzvals. None are particularly early except "3,670" - which I am convinced is a misreading of 8,670! Mine is an exact match for size 7, both focal length and diameter of the lens (61mm). No lens hood washer units are shown, but this could almost be expected as they all have WHS, except 9,305.

It is not a unique system - the generous seller (a member here!) has a much bigger Hermagis with exactly the same insert!

I thought I would show the barrel engraving found on the very early Hermagis Convertibles. One is shown in the P et P booklet. Mine is a little earlier and they found time enough to write the Parisienne address. Unlike many other Paris makers, Hermagis didn't often mention their address!

Note the twin screws holding the end of the rack. These are repeated at the other end of the barrel.

One important date is known about early Hermagis production - the date of the converible patent was July 1856. The two earliest convertibles registered in this thread have this patent engraved, which means they must be after this date. My gut feeling is that the patent date coincides with the start of serial number engraving on sleeves and barrels. Lens marking came much later.

Steven Tribe
21-Jul-2017, 14:06
This one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BIG-BRASS-LENS-175mmX95mm-BIG-CIRCLE-COVERS-AT-LEAST18x24cm-F-300-350mm-/182663692484?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=OUFOxLwFVUM6OqJ9xv16WZIcCqI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

could be an early Hermagis serial no. 4307.

The rear and front cells have been assembled wrongly.

I base my case on:

- the very heavy duty rack is cut away near the lens cells. This identical in appearance to the earliest Hermagis I have.

- the use of double screws to secure the rack to the barrel at both ends. I have only ever seen this on early Hermagis lenses.

- the general appearance is not in conflict with Hermagis early brass.

- The lens diameter is 81 mm which matches one of Hermagis standard Petzval sizes.

- marking the barrel, rather than the sleeve, was done in connection with "monture universelle". The hood assembly, which would shed light on this, is unfortunately absent.

- the serial number is a number which is realistic considering the "known" numbers.

What does the glass edge writing say.

It is, unfortunately, not my purchase!

I don't believe this ever sold as a Hermagis. The rough numbering and the slightly out of true rack screws suggest it might have been a construction attempt that never found its way out of the workshop for retail sale.
-

Steven Tribe
22-Jul-2017, 08:20
Regarding to your new Hermagis.
Are you sure it's something originally made by Hermagis?
I have never seen it before.

This was the deep brass insert in the lens hood which had room for different washer stops.

There is a Lerebours listed (July 2017) which has exactly the same system. Quite a lot smarter than the heavy pillbox system. Given up quite quickly as WH stops became universal!

Amedeus
18-Nov-2017, 14:43
I have acquired ($60 ... ) a convertible Hermagis Petzval where only the front element survived and the latter is perma-mounted in the rear to be used as a landscape lens. 61mm diameter lens makes this a No7

Lens cell is not removable I'm afraid at this point in time, all my efforts so far were in vain.

Serial number on the lens is 12,651

There is writing on the inside and I can make out 166 759 but the last three digits are a guess as top/bottom is obsured ... I really need to get this lens set out to ascertain.

I'll follow up when I succeed ...

Cheers,

Amedeus
19-Nov-2017, 13:32
Adding another number to this list

14,444 - 1868, in line with the other data so far.

Convertible Petzval


EDIT

The owner indicates this lens also has 20fe written on the lens which I interpret as Février 20 ... as good as any other guess ...

This lens reads Hermagis opticien rather than Hermagis à paris

Cheers,

Amedeus
21-Nov-2017, 11:10
I'm looking for an "old" Hermagis convertible Petzval and adding what I find to this list

Convertible Petzval

12,782 - confirmed nothing that can construe a date on the glass edge.

EDIT

The owner of the 12,782 lens checked the numbers on the elements per my request and this is his response:

"At the front lens it says also "Hermagis à Paris" and the number is 637-661.. Same number as yours. Probably a number for the works to keep track of which belonged to which probably!?
Let me know what you think. At the rear it also says "Hermagis à Paris" and number 696-469."

Maybe it is a lot number but I have a sneaky suspicion it may also be the focal length of the individual elements. Will run the math to see if this is possible but it would be great to have access to a catalog page of Hermagis with the different Petzval models they were making at the time.

Cheers,

lungovw
21-Nov-2017, 12:39
I have a 46559, Petzval Portrait type, with year of production written on front lens border as 09. I was told that this is 1909. Pictures in this thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?142492-Help-with-Hermagis-Petzval-lens-info

Steven Tribe
21-Nov-2017, 13:34
I'm looking for an "old" Hermagis convertible Petzval and adding what I find to this list

Convertible Petzval

12,782 - confirmed nothing that can construe a date on the glass edge.

Cheers,

It is surprising that so few have lost their edge markings! Most of the older lenses must have had their Balsam changed at least once. I have done over 10 balsam "operations" with pencil/ink marked lenses - they fade a little, but are still readable.

But perhaps there are just focal lengths/stock numbers on the lens edge on yours?

I have updated with the new data and moved the probable start of date edge writing in post #20 as yours is the highest number without a date!

Amedeus
21-Nov-2017, 19:49
The 12,782 definitely has no markings, I don't own the lens but the seller has taken images of the glass and there's nothing there ... he's also very knowledgeable ...

The 12,651 is indeed mine and I still was not able to get the cell out of the rear. The rear either contains the front achromat or the positive of the rear cell only ... I don't see any balsam separation, so it could be the latter ... I will get it open though,
just have to move on to more aggressive methods as I would like to read whatever is left of the full text rather than reflected, upside down and obscured ... hahaha ...


It is surprising that so few have lost their edge markings! Most of the older lenses must have had their Balsam changed at least once. I have done over 10 balsam "operations" with pencil/ink marked lenses - they fade a little, but are still readable.

But perhaps there are just focal lengths/stock numbers on the lens edge on yours?

I have updated with the new data and moved the probable start of date edge writing in post #20 as yours is the highest number without a date!

EDIT:

Got the now confirmed front cell open from serial 12,651, couldn't see any balsam separation as it was all nicely hidden behind the rim.

Lens reads "Hermagis à Paris" followed with the number 637-661. I determined the focal length of the achromat to be 379mm (14"15/16), no relation to either one of the numbers. I feel strongly though that given enough numbers collected from lenses we can crack this code also. As Steven and others have indicated, either lot numbers, focal length numbers, stock location parts etc.

Amedeus
23-Nov-2017, 10:07
Convertible Petzval engraved "Hermagis Opt. en Fab. nt - Brevere s.g.d.g - Paris". The serial number is 6872 many digits but nothing that makes up a date on the rim of the glass according to previous owner (lens just got sold).

In line with previous observations although it would be worthwhile to know what the digits are. There's a reason for them ;-)

Cheers,


172257

Steven Tribe
23-Nov-2017, 12:12
Added to the #20 posting!
This is second earliest (confirmed) serial number!

There are quite a lot of serial numbers now and there are some conclusions:

Serial numbers on barrels/sleeves started at the same time that the Convertible was introduced. Production of ordinary Petzvals was virtually given up the first few years. The recorded 3xxx engraved number (P et P) is likely a misreading of 8xxx. The Franko-Prussian conflict is easily seen in the serial number and date gaps. Looks like about two years of no production.

The numbers written seem to represent different identification systems at different periods. They differ between lenses in the same Petzval. Some could be focal length, but others look more like stock reference numbers!

Amedeus
24-Nov-2017, 11:24
Added more info and detail in post #29, #33 and #34

Amedeus
25-Nov-2017, 10:41
Added info in post #30 of the owner of lens 12,782

My guess is that the numbers 637-661 on the front achromat (same as my lens that unfortunately lost its rear) possible relate to the focal lengths of the individual elements (thanks Tracy Storer) and the same for the rear elements keeping in mind that at one of them is negative.

Will need to run some math to verify if the above hypothesis is plausible in light of tolerances and measurements.

I've seen few Darlot lenses were the focal length of the group was mentioned in pencil on the edge.

EDIT

I've run the 637-661 and 696-469 numbers through some basic lens math and arrive a a total calculated focal length of 235mm with an assumed spacing of 100mm between front and rear group and a spacing of 4mm between the two elements of the rear group. Not totally impossible numbers in light of tolerances and my assumed boundary conditions. We'll need more of these numbers from other convertible petzvals to verify if there's merit to this hypothesis.

Cheers

Steven Tribe
4-Dec-2017, 07:12
In the hope of getting more early lens data, I have purchased another early no serial number plain Petzval. The announced size corresponds well to Hermagis size 9, which is the larger medaillon size.

I think I forgot to mention that the first no serial number I got with the lens hood insert deep washer stops, has a rather nice velvet seal. I wonder if the new one still has a similar?

Amedeus
4-Dec-2017, 12:56
I have a 46559, Petzval Portrait type, with year of production written on front lens border as 09. I was told that this is 1909. Pictures in this thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?142492-Help-with-Hermagis-Petzval-lens-info

I also asked in the other thread but have you measured the focal length of this lens ?

Thanks,

Steven Tribe
5-Dec-2017, 05:52
In the hope of getting more early lens data, I have purchased another early no serial number plain Petzval. The announced size corresponds well to Hermagis size 9, which is the larger medaillon size.

I think I forgot to mention that the first no serial number I got with the lens hood insert deep washer stops, has a rather nice velvet seal. I wonder if the new one still has a similar?

Well this "no serial number" arrived to-day, so I have had to change my plans for to-day. 18 hours from Austria to Denmark - obviously no Christmas rush yet!

It is, as expected Hermagis size 9 Petzval for Medaillon and 9x12cm. The brasswork is, in everyway, identical to the other early no. 7 I have. The internal baffle has been removed and the light insulating blackened paper strip has been removed, but it is easy to see where it has been.

There are plenty of paired numbers on both the usual lenses and a double pair on the achromat. I think there is a good deal of "assembly" logic in writing actual focal lengths on lenses or combinations (Rear pairs). I am sure they could grind and polish accurately, they had to work with glass that must have had some variation in refractive index.

The numbers on photo 2 are from the rear pair, whilst the two sets on photos 3 and 4 are both from the Achromat.

The future project in "nailing the lens markings" could be a separate thread?

Amedeus
5-Dec-2017, 09:15
There are plenty of paired numbers on both the usual lenses and a double pair on the achromat. I think there is a good deal of "assembly" logic in writing actual focal lengths on lenses or combinations (Rear pairs). I am sure they could grind and polish accurately, they had to work with glass that must have had some variation in refractive index.

The numbers on photo 2 are from the rear pair, whilst the two sets on photos 3 and 4 are both from the Achromat.

The future project in "nailing the lens markings" could be a separate thread?

Looking at these numbers, no focal length combination that could work to come up with a total focal length that is reasonable in light of the size of the lens, so yes, this will need a separate thread ... the two digit numbers are killing that thought for now ...

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
5-Dec-2017, 12:07
The only figure which I could make sense of was the 209 - which appears twice on the achromat. The measured focal length of the achromat is around 209mm. Working back from published and actual total length of the combined lens (120mm) provides a figure for the focal length of the rear pair - but the figure doesn't match up with any of the other numbers.

I havn't found the blacking paper on any of my other Hermagises (to cover the clear gap between rack and barrel cut out) so they seem to worked out a better system after around 1855.

Steven Tribe
6-Dec-2017, 02:09
Strange, the same day that I suggested that internal blacking paper is associated with the early pre serial numbers, I find another one!

This was on ebay in october/november. Incomplete - missing the lens hood and the rear lens cell. The missing cell gave a good view of the bare brass, where the paper had been and the still mounted internal baffle showing where the paper strip had been.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-HERMAGIS-Opt-Fab-Paris-FIELD-CAMERA-LENS/182858275092?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

Amedeus
6-Dec-2017, 08:05
Strange, the same day that I suggested that internal blacking paper is associated with the early pre serial numbers, I find another one!

This was on ebay in october/november. Incomplete - missing the lens hood and the rear lens cell. The missing cell gave a good view of the bare brass, where the paper had been and the still mounted internal baffle showing where the paper strip had been.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-HERMAGIS-Opt-Fab-Paris-FIELD-CAMERA-LENS/182858275092?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

I just checked my incomplete 12,651 and there is indeed clear evidence on both halves of the brass barrel that there was a covering over the rack. The brass there is bare. The 8,154 is just received doesn't have any sign of paper but there's solder covering the gaps. This could have very well been a post-production fix.

Cheers,

Amedeus
6-Dec-2017, 20:17
The 8154 is a convertible Petzval after all, the racks are screwed together. Hood is gone, no flange. Glass is 105mm in diameter, a #3 in the series with a supposedly 450mm focal length, f4.2.

After some struggle to get the cells open, I found the front achromat only bearing the inscription "Hermagis", absolutely nothing else. (No separation whatsoever)

The rear was assembled incorrectly but the rear negative lens bears following in pencil, although at times hard to read as the upper half of the text had a lot of damage (tight fit in the cell)

"Hermagis - Opticien Breveté - Rue Rambuteau 18 - Paris"

Followed in what appears to be capitals "GCC" or "OCC" (faint) and then what I thought was 1819 but the second 1 is different than the first 1 and could be a squiggly 5 ... the 9 is better to see in person after rotating and changing the light ... the image below is not the best iPhone shot either ...

172683

So possibly 1859 and not totally out of line with the notion that 8,000 is around 1860. We need some more lenses in the same serial number range to confirm. We by now know that the information on the lens rims changed from time to time and nothing can be assumed.

As for focal lengths ... the front achromat is ~673mm, the rear cell is ~1,000mm and the calculated FL should be 453 with a ~190mm between cells. Measured FL is ~447mm so all is according to the catalog.

Both front cells have a Roman VI stamped in them, most likely to keep them together.

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
7-Dec-2017, 03:39
I don't think I have seen stamped roman numerals before. The ones I have have scratched ones and indicate which male/female threads are a best fit (hand cut threads!).

Yes, I would guess it was a convertible as Hermagis don't appear to have made anything else for the first period after 1857.
Have added to the #20 list.

Address information is unique, I think.

Perhaps a new member of staff, recruited from Jamin who did this sort of thing! Hermagis was in a growth period!

Later: We all appeared to have missed an earlier thread with some interesting data.
Alex has (had?) a plain Petzval with lens writing of "1856" and had the Rambuteau address-no serial number. Must been one the last before Convertible production took over.

http://collodion-art.blogspot.dk/2011/06/great-find-at-bievres.html

Here is the previous thread link.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86307-Hermagis-lens

The other lens described by Vitaly is interesting as it appears to have the size written on both lenses! he says the lens diameter is 80mm and focal length is 11" with a 3" on both lenses. Size 5 has a focal length of 240mm, glass diameter of 81 (unmounted) or 3 pouce (french inches). So perhaps we should be looking for "lignes et pouce" rather napoleonic cm and mm?

Amedeus
7-Dec-2017, 10:41
I don't think I have seen stamped roman numerals before. The ones I have have scratched ones and indicate which male/female threads are a best fit (hand cut threads!).

Could be deeply carved roman numerals rather than stamped.




Later: We all appeared to have missed an earlier thread with some interesting data.
Alex has (had?) a plain Petzval with lens writing of "1856" and had the Rambuteau address-no serial number. Must been one the last before Convertible production took over.

http://collodion-art.blogspot.dk/2011/06/great-find-at-bievres.html

Here is the previous thread link.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86307-Hermagis-lens

Very similar address writing on the 8154 except for "Breveté" after Opticien and a few added characters.


The other lens described by Vitaly is interesting as it appears to have the size written on both lenses! he says the lens diameter is 80mm and focal length is 11" with a 3" on both lenses. Size 5 has a focal length of 240mm, glass diameter of 81 (unmounted) or 3 pouce (french inches). So perhaps we should be looking for "lignes et pouce" rather napoleonic cm and mm?

Great observation, lignes, pouce and cm/mm could be indeed used interchangeably based on who was doing the writing or what needed to be done to separate the work in progress.

Cheers,

lucaas
8-Dec-2017, 01:15
I have two petzval type portrait lenses.
objectifs a portraits no.6, 57620, 1917
extra rapides pour portraits no.4, 65758, 1920

and an eidoscope no.2, 41650, 1907

Amedeus
1-Jan-2018, 10:15
I just realize that I bought this lens from the buyer at Steven's link below ... supporting the upcycling economy ... (reconfiguring the lenses and polishing it up ... )

The rear lens cell from this is marked Jamin in pencil, no further markings anywhere else.

Both front and rear cell have a roman III stamped/cut in them.

Hood as we know is missing but I'm very tempted to recreate the hood in black anodized aluminum, matter of keeping history and modern age restorations separated.

I'll be shooting with this lens soon, that's in the end the purpose after all ;-)

Cheers,


This one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BIG-BRASS-LENS-175mmX95mm-BIG-CIRCLE-COVERS-AT-LEAST18x24cm-F-300-350mm-/182663692484?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=OUFOxLwFVUM6OqJ9xv16WZIcCqI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

could be an early Hermagis serial no. 4307.

The rear and front cells have been assembled wrongly.

I base my case on:

- the very heavy duty rack is cut away near the lens cells. This identical in appearance to the earliest Hermagis I have.

- the use of double screws to secure the rack to the barrel at both ends. I have only ever seen this on early Hermagis lenses.

- the general appearance is not in conflict with Hermagis early brass.

- The lens diameter is 81 mm which matches one of Hermagis standard Petzval sizes.

- marking the barrel, rather than the sleeve, was done in connection with "monture universelle". The hood assembly, which would shed light on this, is unfortunately absent.

- the serial number is a number which is realistic considering the "known" numbers.

What does the glass edge writing say.

It is, unfortunately, not my purchase!

I don't believe this ever sold as a Hermagis. The rough numbering and the slightly out of true rack screws suggest it might have been a construction attempt that never found its way out of the workshop for retail sale.
-

purplecloud
4-Jan-2018, 13:26
here is mine
SN 9335 convertible petzval
height 215 mm
front lens diameter 80 mm

Steven Tribe
5-Jan-2018, 03:44
Added to the list!

This size no.4 is popular! Both Rudi and I have it.

I have just realised that most french makers seem to have started using serial numbers during the middle and late 1850's. Will research a bit and find out if it is worth a separate thread, especialy as to who started the trend.

Amedeus
6-Jan-2018, 09:51
here is mine
SN 9335 convertible petzval
height 215 mm
front lens diameter 80 mm

Do you know what's written in pencil on the edge of the lenses ?

Just curious, part of the fun finding out ;-)

Cheers !

Amedeus
9-Jan-2018, 15:16
Received a #4 Hermagis Convertible 9787 today.

Front Achromat reads "Hermagis" and in similar cursive writing "B.L.N". In addition in what I believe to be a different style writing "E. Vallet"

Rear negative meniscus reads "Hermagis" and in similar cursive writing "B.L.N". We find the same "E. Vallet" writing. Almost illegible, in small cursive also E. Donche. Some rim glass damage to this element. Rear group had the elements flipped and the positive lens reversed. Corrected upon assembly.

No WHS but there was a thick black cardboard washer style restrictor installed marked in pencil with F=7 in a cavity made for the purpose. Need to remove the rear lens group to access.

No dates, no slew of numerals but possibly the initials of the workers and equally possible names of others who have worked on this lens. Achromat is flawless, no separation, so most likely well maintained during life.

EDIT

What I'm describing above as a washer style restrictor was of course used for aperture control on the landscape lens. This #4 has a lip to prevent the stop to fall through. My #3 convertible (1859) doesn't have this feature at the landscape side of the lens.

Cheers,

Amedeus
10-Jan-2018, 11:32
Hermagis Petzval (non-convertible) serial #15981 from 1874, focal length 215mm, WHS.

Steven Tribe
10-Jan-2018, 11:52
Added to the list. There are quite a few years in the 1870's after this one (1874), where we still have holes and, perhaps, low annual productions. Could this be due to Dallmeyer's Patent Petzval becoming popular?

Amedeus
17-Jan-2018, 08:30
Hermagis convertible, #7 size, serial number 9277j, no WHS

No markings on front achromat (was re-balsamed at least once in its lifetime)

Rear cell negative lens marked Hermagis, no other marks found. This lens had every single thread mis-treaded.

The restricter has provisions for removable stops.

This #7 design is slightly different than my other #7 design (serial 12561 with WHS)

Steven Tribe
18-Jan-2018, 04:56
I was stimulated to have a look at my no. 8 plain petzval again. This is one of my two pre-serial number lenses (and before the introduction of the convertible patent lens). Full of edge numbers - I think I have mentioned this before. I did some comparisons with the table of lens diameters and size reproduced in the P et P Hermagis booklet. This gives the diameters in both the original (archaic) measures as well as modern metric measure. This table cannot be very precise, as there is no constant factor for ligne/mm. This number 8 is listed as 19 lignes and "translated" to 44mm - whilst the real diameter is 41/42mm on my no. 8. I don't think this is an "early variant" size as Hermagis (And other makers) stuck to the lens diameters they had selected early in their history. Hermagis, used lens diameters 54, 61 and 81mm for all series until their anastigmatics.

Table of 19th century serial numbers is updated.

lucaas
24-Jan-2018, 17:07
Hermagis Petzval lens with serial number 2163, focus length about 135mm.
Unfortunately, the making date was not marked on the glass.
174021174022174023

Steven Tribe
25-Jan-2018, 05:41
Well this causes a lot of consternation!

The serial number looks original.
It looks like a plain Petzval which would match with the date deduced from the serial number (1853?). It makes the previous reported earliest number of 3xxx look more likely. Hermagis must have "ocassionally" added serial numbers on their lenses before serial number 6xxx. This must be the case as there are only 2 reported under 6xxx.

No lenses this early have date written on lens edges.

Perhaps you could look inside the barrel to see whether there is a black backing paper strip around the inserted geared track? Or signs that has been one there in the past - and unblacked brass section where the paper used to be?

And lens glass diameter is?

Amedeus
26-Jan-2018, 16:43
Agreed that this is somewhat of a assumption changer.

The lens clearly says "Brevet d'invention" ... question now is, which invention ? The 1856 ? That would be hard to believe as this would suggest an enormous output. What there another brevet/patent prior to 1856 ? Or was this simply bluff ?


Well this causes a lot of consternation!

The serial number looks original.
It looks like a plain Petzval which would match with the date deduced from the serial number (1853?). It makes the previous reported earliest number of 3xxx look more likely. Hermagis must have "ocassionally" added serial numbers on their lenses before serial number 6xxx. This must be the case as there are only 2 reported under 6xxx.

No lenses this early have date written on lens edges.

Perhaps you could look inside the barrel to see whether there is a black backing paper strip around the inserted geared track? Or signs that has been one there in the past - and unblacked brass section where the paper used to be?

And lens glass diameter is?

lucaas
27-Jan-2018, 02:19
Perhaps you could look inside the barrel to see whether there is a black backing paper strip around the inserted geared track? Or signs that has been one there in the past - and unblacked brass section where the paper used to be?

And lens glass diameter is?
Steven, this lens is not mine, I found these pictures on a blog. The geared track is missing. Here is the link (http://www.ksmt.com/eos10d/eos_nikki_body51.htm#140824).



Agreed that this is somewhat of a assumption changer.

The lens clearly says "Brevet d'invention" ... question now is, which invention ? The 1856 ? That would be hard to believe as this would suggest an enormous output. What there another brevet/patent prior to 1856 ? Or was this simply bluff ?
Rudi, one more interesting thing with this lens is the barrel was cut into two pieces and can joint together by screw threads. You can find the details thought the link above. Not sure it was factory cut or cut by users.

Steven Tribe
27-Jan-2018, 02:42
Of course, the patent engraving changes everything!

I assumed it was a simple barrel as you would have discovered it (if you had it in your hands!). It is the standard make up for the convertible, which is just about impossible to make from a standard barrel and, anyway, a later modification would have gone for a WHS solution.

It appears to have lost the track, lens hood and the internal stop frame system - a troubled life indeed. The serial number doesn't match with 1856 patent date. Unless it was something produced before the patent date as part of development work or patent application. But then it shouldn't have the patent "boast" engraved.

The final problem is that it can't be an added serial number as all known convertible Hermagis Petzvals did have a serial number ex-workshop. Could be an example of a 5 digit serial number which has "lost" the last digit?

WHatever, I'll edit the table again (#20) to reflect uncertainty - which effects the other odd number.

Amedeus
27-Jan-2018, 10:53
This is most likely a #9 convertible based on focal length and diameter of the barrel at the rear.

I took the liberty to have the link from lucaas translated and for what it is worth, this is what the writer states. Some comments added.

"It is very old HERMAGIS with serial number 2163. There is a theory that HERMAGIS Inc. was founded in 1845. Once in 1854 the stamp of DEROGY et HERMAGIS can be seen, but then we will return to HERMAGIS again. There is a document that 8745 is manufactured in 1862, so on average it seems that we produced about 500 lenses a year. From this, it can be inferred that lens No. 2163 is manufactured around 1850."

"I read a handwritten F = 13.5 under the engraving. This is thought to be a note by the former owner of the focal length."

"If you attach the rack and pinion gear down to the camera, the engraving will turn upside down. Moreover, the engraved mark becomes hidden because it is hidden by the knob. Furthermore the shaft of the knob is very long."

"Disassembled view. The inner lens barrel can be divided into two. I saw this for the first time. The optical system is an ordinary Petzval. There is no diaphragm function at all."

"The lens is handwritten with Hermagis in pencil."

"A two-part barrel. Since there is no aperture, there is no need to split here. Perhaps I wanted to narrow the inner diameter slightly here and want to reduce internal reflection." ---- the writer is clearly not familiar with the convertible

"Screw the two-piece lens barrel together and it will fit at the position of the rack gear exactly. The rack gear itself is lost.
What a wonderful thread cutting technique! Although I was impressed, I think I would cut the groove for the rack gear afterwards. Probably initially it was a lens with neither diaphragm nor focusing function, but I think that a rack and pinion gear was added later" --- see my remark above.

"Since the flange is lost, a 52 mm step-up ring is glued" --- writer mounts the lens to a 52mm helicoid for use on a DSLR, this and the focal length most likely indicates that this is a #9 convertible with a lens diameter of ~44mm.

"The orientation of the characters of the engraving is also strange. It is obvious to concluded the pinion gear was added without thinking about engraving. The overall look is much like the lens manufactured by Voigtlander in Wien in 1851."

cheers,

Amedeus
1-Feb-2018, 13:28
Added to the list. There are quite a few years in the 1870's after this one (1874), where we still have holes and, perhaps, low annual productions. Could this be due to Dallmeyer's Patent Petzval becoming popular?

This update relates to post #54

The new owner of this lens confirmed the lens diameter (79mm visible, 81mm diameter) and the focal length of 210mm. This makes it a F:2.7, not part of the typical list we use for the convertibles. So looking at all the lists I have for Petzval types from Hermagis, I can only find this configuration in the Serie Nr II from around 1900. There's a #6 which is 210mm at F2.7.

Only thing to conclude is that a list is just a list and that specials or prototypes were made as far as we can assume now.

Cheers,

bourvil
29-May-2018, 23:17
Have new acquisition

Hermagis Eidoscope No.1 with serial No 516402

Regarding the number I guess it is one of the last Eidosopes made by Hermagis before change to SOM Berthiot. Anyway have no clue how old is that. Now I need to get flange replacement and happily looking forward to take first photo

178773

karl french
30-May-2018, 06:46
1950ish. I have a No.3 (527494) just after the change and a No. 2 just before (510948.) The 1950 Som Berthiot catalog shows a Hermagis labeled Eidoscope No. 3 with serial number 516721.

Amedeus
27-Aug-2018, 12:59
Hermagis 13864 is already mentioned in the #20 post list as a convertible but just confirming the rear lens is marked 1867

It's a #6 to be clear, 70mm diameter glass.

Cheers

Steven Tribe
28-Aug-2018, 00:18
As this table is now back on page 3 - and difficult to find - I have brought this copy forward and will only update this one from now on.
This is the first attempt at a table. It is nice that there is no contradictory data!

XXXX no brass serial number, "12 cent" on rear convex/concave. no. 7 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
YYYY no brass serial number. Many numbers. no. 9 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
ZZZZ no brass serial number, lens edges not seen- missing rear cell. size no.6?. blackened paper behind rack.
WWWW no brass serial number. Plain Petzval no.9

3670 early number noted by P et P. The photograph shows this is a modified sleeve. The pinion has been moved to the other side of the sleeve and the WHS cut-out has been made where the pinion was mounted. It appears the sleeve was originally as XXXX, YYYY etc.

Start of Serial numbers. 6285 ( and 7010) are engraved with the granted Patent, which was in July 1856. So 6285 cannot be before 1856. I venture to suggest that comprensive serial number engraving was begun at the same time this was granted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2163) Small Convert. Petzval no data on lens,patent engraving - impossible serial no.?

(3670) P et P image plain Petzval

6285 many digits, but no date - barrel engravings. Convertible
6872 digits but no date. barrel engraving Convertible#
7004. no date but signature on lens - sleeve engraving. Convertible
7010. P et P illustration p.8 - barrel engraving. Convertible.
7242 many digits, but no obvious date. Convertible. No. 4.
8154. only hermagis on achromat. address and 1859 on rear. no.3 convertible
8268. catawiki auction huge ordinary Petzval with bayonnet rear pair
8745. D'Agostini
8077 many digits, no obvious date
9277 Convert no.7
9305 P et P
9335 Convert. no. 4
9342 Convert. ebay 2019
9787 Ebay january 2018 Convert. no.4. turner/Finisher names initials. No numbers.
9804. D'Agostini
9888. Convertible size (private info)

10251 P et P
10417 Ebay august 2017 large convertible sleeve engraved
10776. P et P
10922 D'Agostini
10981 Has dated lens edge in correct style 1874 Replacement? no. 5 convertible
11228. ebay june 2017
11272. P et P. stereo
11824 Breker auction

Start of dating of lenses?

12417 GermanLF forum larger CdV size
12421. P et P
13240 1867
13657 1868
13864. 1867 70mm lens diameter #6 size convert
13995 1867
14098 1868
14444. 1868. convert.
14659. 1868

Franco-Prussian war!

15067. 1872
15463. P et P
15505. 1872
15512. 1873
15744. 1873
15838. no date. plain fast petzval. 180mm (No. 8?)
15904 1878 Replacement ?
15971. 1874
15974. 1874
15988 1874 dated on front and rear lenses SeriesII
16215 1875
16457. 1876
16723. 1876
16784. 1876
16944. 1876
17025. P et P

18635 1880 These two lenses suggest that there may have been a stock of lenses with
18702. 1883. their completion date added, but serial numbers were added later.
19411. 1884. Large plain Petzval
22071. 1888 plain Petzval

24312. (1)891 These are the final digits in a long series. Matches with production levels - of the late 80's early 90's.
31912. (18)97 Large extra rapid series II Petzval



BOLD serial numbers are those added in 2019. Thanks!


The remaining 6 are from the 20th century.

It is obvious that the P et P table is very wrong about a serial number of 12,000 in 1870

Amedeus
13-Sep-2018, 16:54
Plain Hermagis Petzval 22071 from 1888 ... no balsam in the front achromat but curvature is a match when properly aligned. Lens diameter 61mm.

No paper over the track but a relatively hard waxy substance around the track.

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
14-Sep-2018, 01:11
I have seen one other Petzval ( GAsc et Charconnet - 3rd series Objectif Simplifies) without balsam. I assume it is a half finished attempt at balsam replacement. Will probably work OK as it is or with a suitable oil!

purplecloud
14-Sep-2018, 04:21
Do you know what's written in pencil on the edge of the lenses ?

Just curious, part of the fun finding out ;-)

Cheers !

I apologise for the very late answer, finally I took the lens apart and looked at the edges of the lenses
Actually there WAS something written with a pencil on both front and rear lenses, but unfortunately it is all smudged and not readable anymore
Some signs may be interpreted as to have formed the words "Hermagis" and "Paris", the rest is unfathomable

Amedeus
16-Oct-2018, 11:12
I'm the new owner of 15981 (1874) and the black paper is still over the track at the inside. Confirming the 210mm focal length with f2.7, covering 4x5. In addition to the 1874 on both achromat and negative lens in the rear cell, there's a 2 written in front (Deuxieme ?) I know Hermagis had at one point a Petzval series with larger aperture.

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
16-Oct-2018, 13:49
Looking at the two versions of series II on page 9 of the le reve Hermagis booklet, it is difficult to place it exactly! It certainly moves the date of this series ( which includes a number of these superfast F2.7 and even some around F2.5) to an earlier date that "1876" given in the booklet. This series was available until 1939!

Steven Tribe
29-Oct-2018, 08:03
Received a #4 Hermagis Convertible 9787 today.

Front Achromat reads "Hermagis" and in similar cursive writing "B.L.N". In addition in what I believe to be a different style writing "E. Vallet"

Rear negative meniscus reads "Hermagis" and in similar cursive writing "B.L.N". We find the same "E. Vallet" writing. Almost illegible, in small cursive also E. Donche. Some rim glass damage to this element. ...........................

Cheers,

Just realised that "Vallet" is mostly likely an artisan's rendering of Wallet who was given as co-producer of the early 1845 lenses, engraved Wallet & Hermagis! Or the E. Vallet could be Elisabeth Wallet (the daughter!) who married Eugene Derogy in 1852.

Derogy had worked at Wallet and Hermagis' establishment some time after 1845 and before 1851 (when he was 22 years old). There is at least one lens which is engraved Derogy et Hermagis (Corrado's book). So signs of a workshop romance!

Amedeus
29-Oct-2018, 15:41
Just realised that "Vallet" is mostly likely an artisan's rendering of Wallet who was given as co-producer of the early 1845 lenses, engraved Wallet & Hermagis! Or the E. Vallet could be Elisabeth Wallet (the daughter!) who married Eugene Derogy in 1852.

Derogy had worked at Wallet and Hermagis' establishment some time after 1845 and before 1851 (when he was 22 years old). There is at least one lens which is engraved Derogy et Hermagis (Corrado's book). So signs of a workshop romance!

I will look at this again and see if I can get the lighting right for images ...

Cheers,

Steven Tribe
30-Oct-2018, 02:46
In the 19th century, the letter "W" was not used in the french language. It was used for just a few words like "wallon" (The french speaking part of Belgium) and for personal surnames - like Wallet! It must have hurt traditionalists in France, when "le Weekend" was adopted when no existing expression was available in France. Someone with a basic school education, working on the workshop floor might not be acquainted with the difference between V and W.

Steven Tribe
30-Oct-2018, 03:33
I have thought of a new explanation for the very few early serial number engraved lenses. These appear to be genuine, but are many thousand numbers earlier than the known series which started around 6,500.

We know that a great many of the Hermagis Petzvals were made before Waterhouse stops became trade standard. We also know that after 1858, Voigtlander started a factory conversion offer for owners of "older" Petzvals. There was an option for correction of lenses to provide no focus difference between optical and chemical focus, and an option for provision of "central" aperture stops.

I can't really believe that french makers were unaware of Voigtlander's offer. They had already modified the Petzval design and many had a central stop design through making split barrels. But we can see that many front stop Hermagis Petzvals have been professionally converted to Waterhouse slot/stops. Perhaps Hermagis offered the same service that Voigtlander had in the early 1860's? This is a period when just about all makers had adopted serial numbers and a lens without a serial number would have thought of as somewhat bogus! If Hermagis had the same sort of record keeping as Dallmeyer had (stock/sales book) it would be possible to find (Or assign) the true, or approximate, serial number. So Hermagis could provide an extra service.

Both the two known "odd- too early" numbers have the Waterhouse stop conversion.

picturetraveler
2-Dec-2018, 13:53
Hello everyone wanted to share this information

Hermagis Nr 31912
Extra Rapide pr Portrait No 3
450 mm Petzval
17cm high + 4cm Hood Front lens diam 9,2cm
In Pencil the rim of the lens is marked 97.... so it must be a lens from 1897

Thanks for all the info as it helped me a lot in dating the lens.

karl french
2-Dec-2018, 21:51
Extra Rapid Portrait No.3 should be a 310mm lens with 95mm diameter glass. You sure about those figures? Regular Portrait lens No.3 is a 450mm lens, but with 110mm glass.

Steven Tribe
3-Dec-2018, 04:31
Extra Rapid Portrait No.3 should be a 310mm lens with 95mm diameter glass. You sure about those figures? Regular Portrait lens No.3 is a 450mm lens, but with 110mm glass.

Agreed!
The F values for the two series II Hermagis Petzvals do vary a lot ( from F2.7 to 3.5), but the focal length of 450mm would give a F of nearly F5!
Variation in catalogue lens diameter and measured diameter is due to Hermagis using the bare glass diameter before mounting.

karl french
3-Dec-2018, 07:36
I have an Extra Rapide No.5 (25cm f3) and it matches the catalog dimensions. It's a great lens. I would love to find an Extra Rapide No. 1.

Ron (Netherlands)
7-Dec-2018, 14:01
Some member at the German LF site seems to have acquired a nice specimen
and its serial is not in the database yet:

https://grossformatfotografie.de/thread/15758-hermagis-objektiv-um-1865/

Steven Tribe
8-Dec-2018, 03:20
Added.

It would interesting if the lens edges were checked for year dating, as it is close to the guessed serial number when Hermagis introduced this practice?

Hint to Ron - you appear to have excellent Deutsch skills - could you ask?

Amedeus
8-Dec-2018, 11:15
Picked up a small Hermagis, not convertible, lens diameter 42mm, no serial number. No WHS, restrictor is still in place.

Rear negative has Hermagis written on it, no other marks visible but they may have been there, signs of smudges.

Front achromat had Paris written on it, Hermagis style but a different name I'm still deciphering ... L Wue** or L Wul**, again signs of other previous marks, not legible at all. Achromat doesn't show any separation, so most likely redone a few times.

Cheers

Steven Tribe
8-Dec-2018, 15:54
Could this be "Wallet", perhaps? Father or the daughter who married Derogy when he was also working at Hermagis?

The new "no serial number" Hermagis has been added as "WWWW". There are now 4 of these - all regular style Petzvals

Amedeus
10-Dec-2018, 15:03
Could this be "Wallet", perhaps? Father or the daughter who married Derogy when he was also working at Hermagis?

The new "no serial number" Hermagis has been added as "WWWW". There are now 4 of these - all regular style Petzvals

Looked at it under better light and it appears to be L. Wulff, Paris

Did some checking and found 2 references to L Wulff online with respect to photography ...

185328
185329

The lens above has an 1860 reference while the camera illustration has a 1863 reference

So did L Wulff work for Hermagis early on and went on his own later ?

Also (edit), no immediate sign of black paper behind the rack, no tell tale exposed brass where the paper was.

Cheers !

Ron (Netherlands)
12-Dec-2018, 14:38
Added.

It would interesting if the lens edges were checked for year dating, as it is close to the guessed serial number when Hermagis introduced this practice?

Hint to Ron - you appear to have excellent Deutsch skills - could you ask?

Hi Steven, with regard to your request: I've posted the question on the German forum, however from the last posts there it appears the member in question seems more interested in selling his lens.

Ron (Netherlands)
16-Dec-2018, 07:42
Saw this one on a Chinese site, but apparently sold not long ago by the well known German auction site for about 970 Euros - it is not in the database:
http://laoxiangji.com/product-view-id-43378.html

Steven Tribe
16-Dec-2018, 12:28
10981 (the lens on the link) is a problem lens - especialy just now!

At the moment it is listed on an auction site until after Christmas. There is quite a range of focal lengths given for this lens at various earlier auctions - from 40cm to the current 35cm. The lens diameter of 75mm suggests it is the size 5 of the series I Petzval - and the focal length should be 240mm! It is also described as "Landscape" lens which suggests there may be something unusual with the optical set-up.

So I won't add to the list just now!

alex from holland
17-Dec-2018, 00:00
10981 (the lens on the link) is a problem lens - especialy just now!

At the moment it is listed on an auction site until after Christmas. There is quite a range of focal lengths given for this lens at various earlier auctions - from 40cm to the current 35cm. The lens diameter of 75mm suggests it is the size 5 of the series I Petzval - and the focal length should be 240mm! It is also described as "Landscape" lens which suggests there may be something unusual with the optical set-up.

So I won't add to the list just now!

Definately not 400mm.
That size is a 300mm lens. I have two with exactly the same size.

Ron (Netherlands)
30-Dec-2018, 07:48
The 'front' does not seem original to me - might be a Frankenstein lens....

Steven Tribe
31-Dec-2018, 03:12
Hermagis 10981 was sold for 850€ (plus 9% auction fees).
It looks exactly right to me as the standard "double-ender"!
The given focal length is a worry, though!

Ron (Netherlands)
2-Jan-2019, 11:50
Might be interesting to ad to the database just for completeness sake: an advertisement with just the barrel of nr. 13002 - all lenses are missing.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GsUAAOSwCXxcJkGX/s-l1600.jpg

Steven Tribe
4-Jan-2019, 06:09
Hermagis 10981 was sold for 850€ (plus 9% auction fees).
It looks exactly right to me as the standard "double-ender"!
The given focal length is a worry, though!

The new owner says it is the no.5 Universelle Portrait with 81mm diameter glass and a measured focal length of 320mm!
Lens edge date was 1874 which is obviously too late for this brass engraved serial number! Marking is correct so the glass lenses must be a replacement from 1874. The cells were in disarray!
Added now to the list (Posting #68).

Hugo Zhang
21-Mar-2019, 17:48
Hermagis Petzval lens with WHS #15838 and I think it is a 180mm focal lens with f/3.5