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dave clayton
21-Aug-2013, 07:46
so i bought a Mod54 tank for processing film as i did not have access to a dark room, ive had nowt but issues due to uneven development and damaged negs so what are my alternatives for processing my negs and direct positives without darkroom access.
Ive looked at the combi plan system but given its out of production now not sure if i can find a new one so what else is available to me
Dave

Light Guru
21-Aug-2013, 08:28
Yea lots of people have issues with the mod54, there have been several posts about it.

The only 4x5 developing systems that are still in production are the mod54 and btzs tubes which are really just PVC pipes. However you can still find LOTS of used processing equipment.

Im not going to go into all the ways you can develop there are lots of threads already out there about that like this one
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?99577-Best-4x5-Developing-Tank&highlight=tank

Frank_E
21-Aug-2013, 08:42
neither of the two approaches I use are still sold new to the best of my knowledge but both can be had on Ebay
I have used the Jobo 2521 tank with a 2509 reel using rotation either by hand or on a uni roller
the tank can be a challenge to load in a film changing bag. It takes practice

the other easier to use and load system is the Patterson Orbital
but that also has some tricks for getting event development (I cut off the fins)
and other tricks such as make sure the sheets don't come out of position (taller posts separating the sections)

good luck

Lachlan 717
21-Aug-2013, 13:53
Jobo is still available new.

koh303
21-Aug-2013, 15:55
Jobo is still available new.

+1

dave clayton
21-Aug-2013, 16:21
Ive got some tray's so may get used to processing in the darkroom in that, given the community darkroom is only £30 a year and all the other alternatives are a bit above my budget at the moment.
second the issues with the mod54 think its a good idea but for the life of me i cant get good negs out of it, ive done countless rolls of 35mm and 120 with hardly no issues and just find the lack of constancy with the mod54 frustrating.

ScottPhotoCo
21-Aug-2013, 17:25
so i bought a Mod54 tank for processing film as i did not have access to a dark room, ive had nowt but issues due to uneven development and damaged negs so what are my alternatives for processing my negs and direct positives without darkroom access.
Ive looked at the combi plan system but given its out of production now not sure if i can find a new one so what else is available to me
Dave

Dave,

Can you take us through your process, chemicals and share sample images? I use the MOD54 quite successfully and may be able to help.

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

AtlantaTerry
21-Aug-2013, 21:34
Dave,

Can you take us through your process, chemicals and share sample images? I use the MOD54 quite successfully and may be able to help.

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

Tim,

Let's not wait for Dave to reply as he may not. How about posting some MOD54 tips for us?

I don't have one yet but am seriously considering a purchase.

Thanks,
Terry

tenderobject
21-Aug-2013, 21:49
Last time i used my mod54 i still got minor streaks.. I've done different developing approach but still getting those streaks. It might be that the film i used was xray fogged.
I'll try developing different batch of films next time but i won't expect that much..

I used aggresive inversion on this one. Inversion then turn the tank left/right then invert again..
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1001013_668795876467443_960650536_n.jpg

tigger_six
22-Aug-2013, 03:28
I too had issues with Mod54 (roughly as the one shown by tenderobject, there were 2 lighter areas where the film was held). My standard processing was 1l of replenished XTOL for 10:30 at 20 degrees. Agitate first 30 seconds,
then at 1 minute, then every minute except for the 8th and 10th. Agitation is two inversions with half-rotation.

Now I changed to Jobo 2520 with Jobo 2509n and the issues are gone.

dave clayton
22-Aug-2013, 07:43
I will dig up some of the images later and post
the last batch are direct positive papers and have 4 clear marks from the holder and the last batch of negs i processed on stand and they also had some serious uneven dev

Light Guru
22-Aug-2013, 07:53
I will dig up some of the images later and post
the last batch are direct positive papers and have 4 clear marks from the holder and the last batch of negs i processed on stand and they also had some serious uneven dev

I doubt you will have good results with using direct positive paper. The best films to use with the mod54 are ones that are thick. Any medium or thin films will come out of the holders even with minimal agitation.

LuisR
22-Aug-2013, 09:16
I use the MOD54 and my only issue has been small scratches on the side of the film opposite the emulsion in the area of the fingers of the processor. I have not found the scratches to show up in printing and have also found that the scratches are minimized if I develop all six sheets at once. This also makes sense from a chemical usage standpoint. I can only contribute the parts of my process that work for me. First, make sure that the tank is always filled with 1L of chemicals. Second, I never ever do inversions. Instead I use the spindle that comes with the Patterson tank to turn the processor vigorously for the first minute and then for ten seconds every third minute as part of my developing process with Pyro. Third, make sure that you maintain the temperature throughout the developing process. I have not had problems with uneven development. I will post any further findings I discover in my quest to eliminate or minimize the scratches.

mathieu Bauwens
22-Aug-2013, 09:25
4 clear marks from the holder

I had that also on films. The solution I've found was to invert the negs, and take care not to put the emulsion side against the older. No more troubles...

DO NOT shake the MOD 54, it is explained on their website, invert gently the paterson tank twice a minute and it will be fine. I use this gear for two years now and I never had any issues with this combo for TXP 320, Fomapan, Efke and Ilford negatives

Light Guru
22-Aug-2013, 11:05
I never ever do inversions. Instead I use the spindle that comes with the Patterson tank to turn the processor vigorously for the first minute and then for ten seconds every third minute as part of my developing process with Pyro. Third, make sure that you maintain the temperature throughout the developing process. I have not had problems with uneven development.

You are the only person who has reported even development using the spindle. Even the guy who invented the mod54 does not recommend suing the spindle. The reason for this is that the holder itself prevents fresh chemicals from reaching all the whole film when only spinning the film.

AtlantaTerry
22-Aug-2013, 11:25
The solution I've found was to invert the negs...

What is the point of inverting the negatives? What difference is there if the top is at the top or bottom?

Kirk Gittings
22-Aug-2013, 11:31
It truly pains me to see people ruin their hard earned efforts in the field or studio with uneven development.

FWIW guys (not wanting to be a nay sayer but....I have to think my experience is worth sharing), after 35 years of developing sheet film (and teaching LF film development) and trying literally everything out there but this holder-I know just looking at it that I personally could not get even development with it. The only method I have been able to get even development with is tubes, BTZS and Jobo or tray development with less 6 sheets or less.

If I did not have a full darkroom and only had very limited space like a bathroom, I would definitely use BTZS tubes. No one should have to jump through all these hoops to get even negatives. They are too important and oftentimes irreplaceable.

tenderobject
22-Aug-2013, 11:33
Can you show some images you've developed with mod54? I'm quite curious on others processing method to eliminate the streaks..

I've done different kinds of method last time i tried Ilford ID-11 and FP4+ combo and i developed 6 sheets and done 2 inversion + rotating the tank anti-clockwise every minute (done within 10 secs). I didn't do invertion in the first whole 1 minute i just work what Ilford said to agitate 10 seconds every minute.

I found out that the streaks came more visible with the 2 sheets in the inner part of the processor. So, using a dummy sheets would eliminate this but you will be loosing a lot on chemistry. I never tried this but would love to in my next batch of films. If anyone can try this method and show us result it would be awesome!

One of my first images with mod54!

100689



I use the MOD54 and my only issue has been small scratches on the side of the film opposite the emulsion in the area of the fingers of the processor. I have not found the scratches to show up in printing and have also found that the scratches are minimized if I develop all six sheets at once. This also makes sense from a chemical usage standpoint. I can only contribute the parts of my process that work for me. First, make sure that the tank is always filled with 1L of chemicals. Second, I never ever do inversions. Instead I use the spindle that comes with the Patterson tank to turn the processor vigorously for the first minute and then for ten seconds every third minute as part of my developing process with Pyro. Third, make sure that you maintain the temperature throughout the developing process. I have not had problems with uneven development. I will post any further findings I discover in my quest to eliminate or minimize the scratches.

mathieu Bauwens
22-Aug-2013, 12:09
What difference is there if the top is at the top or bottom

Sory for my english, it was not invert top to bottom, but invert the face, just not put the face with emulsion on the holder.

tigger_six
22-Aug-2013, 12:37
Sory for my english, it was not invert top to bottom, but invert the face, just not put the face with emulsion on the holder.

So that the emulsion is on the outside surface? What developer did you use and for how long?

GSX4
22-Aug-2013, 13:45
Is the newer mk27 version of the mod54 better though? I heard that it was redesigned to address uneven development problems. I have a newer mk27 model to test, but wanted to know if there is feedback on it first??

Light Guru
22-Aug-2013, 13:59
Is the newer mk27 version of the mod54 better though? I heard that it was redesigned to address uneven development problems. I have a newer mk27 model to test, but wanted to know if there is feedback on it first??

From what I can tell (i dont actually have the new one) the redesign was to make mass production easier and had nothing to do with uneven development.

LuisR
22-Aug-2013, 20:10
You are the only person who has reported even development using the spindle. Even the guy who invented the mod54 does not recommend suing the spindle. The reason for this is that the holder itself prevents fresh chemicals from reaching all the whole film when only spinning the film.

I have always used the spindle for developing 35mm, 120, and now 4x5 using the MOD54 processor and never have experienced uneven development with any film format. When I first started using the Paterson tanks many years ago, I initially inverted it. After several years I decided to experiment using only the spindle, and have had no regrets ever since. I wonder if some of these problems are the result of not using enough developer in quantity in the ratio required. For example, Rodinal requires a minimum of 6ml in whatever ratio it is being used to water. That means that to develop a roll of 35mm in a Paterson tank, to be on the safe side, I use 10ml of Rodinal with 500ml water at the 1+50 ratio, even though to develop one roll of 35mm only 300ml of water are required to fully immerse the reel. These are the type of details that must be paid attention to, because if they are not followed, any problems resulting would be difficult to track. I am sure that other developers have minimum volume requirements to properly develop the film in question. I often read about other photographers developing film in tubes using less than 100ml of liquid and wonder if using such a small volume is not asking for trouble.

LuisR
22-Aug-2013, 20:14
From what I can tell, the older version was prone to breaking because the plastic used, which appeared to be a type of styrene, was very brittle. The newer version, which is the one I have, appears to be made from polypropylene, which is a more flexible type of plastic.

Light Guru
22-Aug-2013, 21:30
From what I can tell, the older version was prone to breaking because the plastic used, which appeared to be a type of styrene, was very brittle. The newer version, which is the one I have, appears to be made from polypropylene, which is a more flexible type of plastic.

If there was a breaking issue it's bit because of the material it's because the original was made from several peaces just glued to together. Any breaking would be at the glued cosmetic of two peaces. The new version is injection molded and this it is basically one peace and thus nothing is glued together.

mathieu Bauwens
23-Aug-2013, 01:15
So that the emulsion is on the outside surface

nope, to the inside, facing the center of the tank. I've used D76, Xtol and Rodinal for 6 to 18 minutes depending on the iso of the film.

100732 100733 100734
all 3 on Fomapan 200, Rodinal 1+50, Mod 54

tenderobject
23-Aug-2013, 05:43
why not post your photos here? i've done that twizzle stick method but i get much visible streaks like the last pic i posted here. i'm quite amazed you are getting good result with it.



I have always used the spindle for developing 35mm, 120, and now 4x5 using the MOD54 processor and never have experienced uneven development with any film format. When I first started using the Paterson tanks many years ago, I initially inverted it. After several years I decided to experiment using only the spindle, and have had no regrets ever since. I wonder if some of these problems are the result of not using enough developer in quantity in the ratio required. For example, Rodinal requires a minimum of 6ml in whatever ratio it is being used to water. That means that to develop a roll of 35mm in a Paterson tank, to be on the safe side, I use 10ml of Rodinal with 500ml water at the 1+50 ratio, even though to develop one roll of 35mm only 300ml of water are required to fully immerse the reel. These are the type of details that must be paid attention to, because if they are not followed, any problems resulting would be difficult to track. I am sure that other developers have minimum volume requirements to properly develop the film in question. I often read about other photographers developing film in tubes using less than 100ml of liquid and wonder if using such a small volume is not asking for trouble.

LuisR
23-Aug-2013, 06:14
why not post your photos here? i've done that twizzle stick method but i get much visible streaks like the last pic i posted here. i'm quite amazed you are getting good result with it.

I will post three photos, all are 4x5 and selected because if there was any uneven development it would be easy to see in the black areas. These three negatives also had minor scratches in the areas of the fingers which do not show up. All were scanned in an Epson 4990 at almost 4800dpi to yield files just over 1G in size.

LuisR
23-Aug-2013, 06:24
The system is not letting me upload the other two files, any ideas why? They are the same format and about the same size as the previous.

Kirk Gittings
23-Aug-2013, 07:26
I will post three photos, all are 4x5 and selected because if there was any uneven development it would be easy to see in the black areas. These three negatives also had minor scratches in the areas of the fingers which do not show up. All were scanned in an Epson 4990 at almost 4800dpi to yield files just over 1G in size.

Uneven development is easiest to see in the middle grays. That is why the best test is to shoot an evenly lit area like a wall, through it out of focus and place it on ZIV through VI.

Kirk Gittings
23-Aug-2013, 07:27
I will post three photos, all are 4x5 and selected because if there was any uneven development it would be easy to see in the black areas. These three negatives also had minor scratches in the areas of the fingers which do not show up. All were scanned in an Epson 4990 at almost 4800dpi to yield files just over 1G in size.

Uneven development is easiest to see in the middle grays. That is why the best test is to shoot an evenly lit area like a wall, through it out of focus and place it on Zone V.

Kirk Gittings
23-Aug-2013, 07:29
I will post three photos, all are 4x5 and selected because if there was any uneven development it would be easy to see in the black areas. These three negatives also had minor scratches in the areas of the fingers which do not show up. All were scanned in an Epson 4990 at almost 4800dpi to yield files just over 1G in size.

Uneven development is easiest to see in the middle grays. That is why the best test is to shoot an evenly lit area like a wall, throw it out of focus and place it on Zone V. Detail of any kind or deep or light tones helps to mask problems. If you haven't done this test one really cannot say they are getting even development.

I did tray/shuffle development for like twenty years "successfully" with as many as 20 sheets of film. Out of curiosity one day I did the above test and was amazed by how much extra edge density I was getting from the sloshing action penetrating the edges of the film in the stack. That explained why I had to do so much edge burning on prints. Through tests I found I could not do more than about 6 sheets of film without getting the increased density along the edges.

LuisR
23-Aug-2013, 08:49
Uneven development is easiest to see in the middle grays. That is why the best test is to shoot an evenly lit area like a wall, through it out of focus and place it on ZIV through VI.

I discovered that I could not upload the other two files because they were too large, thus I reduced them. Here are two photos with middle grays.

RHITMrB
23-Aug-2013, 09:40
I've had pretty good luck with my MOD54. Here's a summary of what seems to make the difference for me - I have issues if I don't follow this protocol:

- Emulsion facing in.
- Inversion only. No rotary agitation.
- SLOW inversion. I take a good 3-5 seconds to do each inversion.
- Long-ish development times. 7m30s is my shortest under any circumstances.

LuisR
23-Aug-2013, 09:54
I've had pretty good luck with my MOD54. Here's a summary of what seems to make the difference for me - I have issues if I don't follow this protocol:

- Emulsion facing in.
- Inversion only. No rotary agitation.
- SLOW inversion. I take a good 3-5 seconds to do each inversion.
- Long-ish development times. 7m30s is my shortest under any circumstances.

Emulsion in is a no brainer, though I think the reason why its recommended is to keep the fingers of the processor which are prone to scratching the film, away from the emulsion side. I should also add that all of my dev times using Pyro are over 15 minutes (applies as well to the images I posted).

LuisR
23-Aug-2013, 09:58
Uneven development is easiest to see in the middle grays. That is why the best test is to shoot an evenly lit area like a wall, throw it out of focus and place it on Zone V. Detail of any kind or deep or light tones helps to mask problems. If you haven't done this test one really cannot say they are getting even development.

I did tray/shuffle development for like twenty years "successfully" with as many as 20 sheets of film. Out of curiosity one day I did the above test and was amazed by how much extra edge density I was getting from the sloshing action penetrating the edges of the film in the stack. That explained why I had to do so much edge burning on prints. Through tests I found I could not do more than about 6 sheets of film without getting the increased density along the edges.

The wall test is a good suggestion. Will run that on my next dev batch.

dave clayton
27-Nov-2013, 12:13
Sorry about bumping the old thread, I've changed developer to ID 11 and it has stopped most of the issues i was having along with taking the advice on this thread cheers so much for the help here guys

freddenacka
28-Nov-2013, 03:43
I´m new to this and use Mod54 and have not had any problem. Cant se any problems in your example ether