How much better are quadtone inks than regular Epson U/chrome?

[Yaakov Asher Sinclair]

I took the plunge and ordered a Epson 2100/2200. At the same time I ordered the matte black ink, which apparently works better for BandW on matter papers. The cost of a new set of Ultrachrome inks here in Israel is around $500 (gulp). I would much appreciate hearing comparisons betweeen the OEM inks and Band W quadtones. thanks very much!

[Larry Gebhardt]

In my opinion printing good black and white images with the 2200 is not possible out of the box. This is strictly due to metamerism. The prints look fine in room light, but shift to blue in daylight.

From what I can tell there are two ways around this, and I haven't tried either. The first is to buy a RIP such as image print. This appently lets you avoid using the yellow ink, which is the problem. This would be the best option if you also want to print color images as well. The second would be to switch inks. In this regard I can't help at all.

Regarding the price of ink - are you sure you weren't looking at the ink cost for the larger printers? A set of ink for the 2200 should cost $84 retail and about $62 on the street. I can't believe it can be 8 times more in Israel.

[Ralph Barker]

Being unable to dedicate my 2200 to printing solely B&W images, I haven't tried the third-party inks, either. I've been satisfied with the prints I'm getting with the standard Epson inks. It is my understanding, however, that Epson will refuse warranty service (should service be necessary) if non-Epson inks are used in their printers. That may, or may not, be a concern to you.

[JohnnyV]

>Epson will refuse warranty service (should service be necessary) if non-Epson inks are used in their printers. That may, or may not, be a concern to you.

Not true...they can tell you that, but by law they have to fix the printer under warranty. I returned two Epson for replacement with no problem.

Firstly...join this group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/

The 2200 with the Epson inks and Epson driver will produce B+W prints with metamerism...it's pretty bad really!

There are some options...

Use QuadToneRIP with the Epson Inks. It works with Mac, Linux and later in the summer a Windows version will be available. Many profiles are available for different color tones from cool to neutral to sepia and everything in-between.

http://www.harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

This will get you to about 90% quality of using a dedicated quad ink workflow.

Another is printing with Black Ink Only - follow this workflow:

http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Using a third party ink is another:

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/ut7_2200.html

The above pages mentions for use only with Epson Driver and curves but you can use QTR with this inkset.

That's my choice if you would like to dedicate the 2200 to B+W - MIS U7 inks and QTR.

I have a Epson 890 with UT2 inks using QTR.

Prints are superb!

John V.

[Bruce Watson]

Epson will only refuse warranty service is they can show that the use of third party inks is the cause of your problem. Just like if they can show that you dropped the printer and that is the cause of your problem. Otherwise, they have to honor their warranty.

I second all that Johnny V. said. I add that Cone also sells monochrome inks:

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezotone.html

These differ from the MIS inks in one way, which is that the MIS inks are variable tone, while the Piezotones are fixed tone inksets. Some like the flexibility of the MIS inks that let you print from cold to warm without changing inks. Some like the extra stability of the Piezotones that don't have toners.

I use the selenium tone Piezotones on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. It's a beautiful combination to my eyes. Of course, YMMV.

One other thing. You can use the ImagePrint RIP:

http://www.colorbytesoftware.com/imageprint.htm

to print B&W prints from UltraChrome inks. This cuts down on the matamerism issues quite a bit I'm told. You still have the issues of sometimes getting a color cast of color fringing, and differential fading as the print ages. But if you have to print B&W from color inks, and you don't want to spend the time figuring out QTR, you could spend the bucks on ImagePrint. It's another alternative.

[JohnnyV]

Piezotone inks are not available for the 2200 at this time.

Forgot about ImagePrint Rip. It's pricey though.

QTR has gotten a lot easy to install.

[tim atherton]

"Piezotone inks are not available for the 2200 at this time. "

Actually it is - under Septones, from the orignal manufactuers/developer of the Peizo inks/system

Imageprint kinda works well - but in many ways it's a pain (and expensive) - but I'm getting my best results from it now with thew 2200 - for both colour and B&W

[Michael Rosenberg]

I am curious what peoples experiences are with clogged print heads. I am using the PiezoTone inks on an Epson 1280 and have to clean the heads every 2-3 prints (8x10) to avoid bands. Is this more a problem with one inkset than another??

Thanks,

Mike

[Paul Kierstead]

I have not used the alternatives (outside of the stock software) but am a very very pleased user of Image Print. Now when it comes to price, particularly their pricing on the Epson 4000 version, that is a whole different ballgame, but the software does get great results; significantly better then the stock driver in my usage.

[Carl Schofield]

I would also recommend black only printing if you are just starting with the 2200. This technique works very well with landscapes or other images that do not have large, smooth midtone regions (not recommended for portraits). As in conventional silver gelatin printing paper choice will be important in detemining print tone. Choose any of the bright white cotton fine art papers (Entrada BW, Condor BW, Piezography Museum BW, etc.) for neutral to slightly cool print tones or use warm tone papers like Entrada Natural, Epson Ultrasmooth, and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag for warmer tones. Use either the OEM Epson Matte black or MIS Eboni (slightly more neutral tone) with these matte papers. Black only prints (particularly large prints) have a certain clarity and luminance that for some images looks better than the more opaque and flat appearance of prints made with either the UC inks and a RIP or monochromatic ink sets.

[Bruce Watson]

Tim,

My understanding is that the Septone inks (old Piezography inks) are quite different than the Piezotones, which is a new generation of inks. The Old Piezography inks faded and warm shifted quite noticably, while the current generation inks (Piezotones) do not.

As far a fading and tonal shifting goes, it seems that the current generation of MIS (using the Eboni black) and Piezotones are about equal. Either can outlast the paper they are printed on.

[Brian Ellis]

Black only printing with the 2200 has worked pretty well for me in the limited number of times I've used it. The biggest problem I've had is finding a paper with which it will produce a neutral tone. I've been using Epson Enhanced Matte since that's what I use in my other printer with MIS inks but black only on the 2200 produces a warm tone with that paper. I've read about other papers that produce a more neutral tone but haven't yet tried them.

I agree with Carl, if you want to try black only replace the Epson matte or photo black cartridge with MIS Eboni (costs about $9 a cartidge in the U.S., not sure about Israel). Also go to Clayton Jones' web site (www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm) where you'll find detailed instructions on how to set up the 2200 for black only printing. Finally, do some reading in the Yahoo "digital black and white: the print" group that Johnny mentioned. It's a great resource for digital black and white printing information.

My suggestion for you with your 2200 would be to first try your normal Ultrachrome inks with Roy Harrington's RIP if you use a Mac or wait until the Windows version arrives this summer if you don't. I use Windows so I have no personal experience with it but from what I've read it does an excellent job. I certainly wouldn't pay for Imageprint without first trying Roy's RIP for a lot less money.

I use MIS quadtone inks in an Epson 1280 with curves downloaded for free from the MIS website and have been very pleased with them. Not all MIS inks are variable tone (unless they've dropped some of the lines they used to sell), some are and some aren't, you can take your pick. But as I'm sure you know using a quadtone ink requires a second printer if you wish to continue doing any color work so Roy's RIP would be very nice to have in the 2200. In the U.S. there are quite a few places that sell third party replacement inks for the Epson Ultrachromes for less than the Epson brand costs. MIS is one such place, you might check something like that out if Epson inks cost $500 in Israel (ouch!).

[Donal Taylor]

"My understanding is that the Septone inks (old Piezography inks) are quite different than the Piezotones, which is a new generation of inks. The Old Piezography inks faded and warm shifted quite noticably, while the current generation inks (Piezotones) do not."

Hogarth, it sounds like you have been well and truly taken in by John Cones lets charitably call it "propaganda".

His inks have always never done better than anyone else's in widely accepted independent testing. They have sometimes done worse. So he developed his own in house testing (which he justifies an various ways), which also happens to be biased towards the properties of his inks, then makes the claim as to how much better than everyone else's inks his are.

There are new neutral tone Septones as well as the "original" warm septones (which are similar to the old Piezography inks). These inks will, according to all other independent testing, do as well as the Cone inks - in in some cases better than them. All in all though, there is very little between them - the bigger differences are in the software - and in the Spetone inks, in the use of other coloured pigments to let you vary the tone more widely.

No one, apart from die-hard piezography fans (who are usually tied into his expensive system) actually really believes the exaggerated claims for his inks. They are good - but they are only as good as the other, similar inks (from pixelguys and MIS) - the differences in longevity are negligible. (in fact, based on objective independent testing, the MIS inks are probably longer lasting than the Cone inks)

[Bruce Watson]

Thank you mark. Always a pleasure to be called a dupe.

I said "As far a fading and tonal shifting goes, it seems that the current generation of MIS (using the Eboni black) and Piezotones are about equal."

You said "the differences in longevity are negligible."

It looks to me as if you are violently agreeing with me.

[sanking]

Hi folks,

Thanks to everyone for all the information. As a new owner of a 2200 I find it very useful.

But here is my question. I am using the 2200 primarily to make digital negatives on Pictorico OHP for making prints with alternative processes (carbon and Pt./Pd.) and AZO. Unfortunatley there is a just a tad more grain (some call it a gritty look) than one would want when the final surface is a smooth silver paper, as with regular silver gelatin or AZO. With alternative processses like carbon and Pt/Pd no problem since the texture of the paper gobbles up the grainy look.

I have been told that the use of dye based inks, instead of the pigment based inks of the Ultrachorme ink system, will give a smoother, less grainy look on Pictorico. But I am reluctant to actually try this from fear of damaging the printer. So, can anyone recommend from positive personal experience a dye-based ink that will work well in the 2200 without risk of clogging up the nozzles?

[Lars Åke Vinberg]

I know that it is difficult for you Americans to always remember, but this is a forum that is used globally, so what is true in the U.S. marketplace might not be valid in other parts of the world. Consumer laws and distributors' policies vary, as does pricing.

Thus, while Epson in the U.S. might have to honor warranty if third-party inks have been used, this might not necessarily be true in other countries.

Just a friendly reminder,

Lars

[Jonathan Lee]

I have an Epson 2200 and have used the old and current Piezo inks on an Epson 1160. I love Piezo but there are the recurring and constafrustrating nt problems of nozzle clogging. Recently Epson has released a new ICC printer profile designed for the 2200. Using this profile on Epson mate is, to my eyes, every bit as good as Piezo. My 1160 is not unused.

www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/EditorialAnnouncement.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=42114986

[JohnnyV]

Sandy>I have been told that the use of dye based inks, instead of the pigment based inks of the Ultrachorme ink system, will give a smoother, less grainy look on Pictorico. But I am reluctant to actually try this from fear of damaging the printer. So, can anyone recommend from positive personal experience a dye-based ink that will work well in the 2200 without risk of clogging up the nozzles?

The only dye based inks for the 2200 are Lyson's Fotonics.

I have had no experience with dye inks in the 2200. But have much experience with dye based inks - Fontonics - in earlier Epson models. I'm running Fotonics in an Epson 1200 with zero problems or clogs.

I don't think there will be much of a problem with clogs as the dyes flow easier than pigments. But when you first install Lysonics it's best to either use cleaning carts or - what I do - is shoot Windex through each nipple with a syringe and small tube. Then install dye carts. If you need more info I can go into more detail.

The only supplier of 2200 Fotonics dye inks is inkjetgoodies.com:

http://www.inkjetgoodies.com/inks.htm

Here's the search link:
http://redrockinnovations.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IJG&Category_Code=I14-1

http://www.lyson.com/includes/frames.html

Here's other suppliers that do not have 2200 dye inks:

http://www.mediastreet.com/

http://www.inkjetmall.com/

http://www.inkjetart.com/

http://www.inksupply.com/