Graflex Graphic II Lens Upgrade

[Racer X 69]

Is it possible to fit newer lenses to one of these older cameras?

http://www.graflex.org/articles/graphic-view/movements.jpg

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.

[Peter_Jones]

Hi, there should be no problem fitting more modern lenses, just need lens boards with the appropriate sized hole for the shutter. There are some lenses that I reckon might cause problems, but most should present no worries.

[Racer X 69]

There are some lenses that I reckon might cause problems, . . .

Could you expand on this?

[Doremus Scudder]

Large format lenses mount on lensboards. Any lens that is not too large to fit on your 4x4-inch lensboards will fit on the camera. Any lens that is not so long that you need more bellows draw than you have will focus on your camera. I believe the Graphic View has 16" or roughly 400mm of bellows draw, so you can easily use lenses up to 360mm and still be able to focus closer than infinity. Lenses mount in holes in the lensboard and are secured by retaining rings. You need lensboards with the proper size hole for the lens(es) that you have. Each lens usually has its own lensboard.

Extremely short lenses will not allow much in the way of camera movements, but you should be able to use as short as 65mm or 75mm as long as you mount both standards on the front side of the tripod mount.

If all this is not obvious to you, you need to read some basic instructional material about view cameras. There is much on the home page of this forum and lots of books.

BTW, I have the same camera and find it a great tool as long as the tripod mounting block/tilt head is still in good shape.

Best and good luck,

Doremus

[Racer X 69]

Large format lenses mount on lensboards. Any lens that is not too large to fit on your 4x4-inch lensboards will fit on the camera. Any lens that is not so long that you need more bellows draw than you have will focus on your camera. I believe the Graphic View has 16" or roughly 400mm of bellows draw, so you can easily use lenses up to 360mm and still be able to focus closer than infinity. Lenses mount in holes in the lensboard and are secured by retaining rings. You need lensboards with the proper size hole for the lens(es) that you have. Each lens usually has its own lensboard.

Extremely short lenses will not allow much in the way of camera movements, but you should be able to use as short as 65mm or 75mm as long as you mount both standards on the front side of the tripod mount.

If all this is not obvious to you, you need to read some basic instructional material about view cameras. There is much on the home page of this forum and lots of books.

BTW, I have the same camera and find it a great tool as long as the tripod mounting block/tilt head is still in good shape.

Best and good luck,

Doremus

Thank you very much for the informative response.

Yes, this is all fairly obvious to me, as I have been reading about the large format cameras some, here and elsewhere. Indeed I had given some thought to the limitations of the extremes of focal lengths, but having no hands on experience with them your comments are very helpful.

Again, having no hands on experience I wanted to take advantage of the collective experience here before committing to this particular camera. I wanted to be sure that the camera would leave me with some options for using newer glass (something else I have been reading about).

As for lens boards, I know they are commercially available, but can someone who has a fair amount of mechanical aptitude make their own? If so, what materials would be suitable? Polycarbonate? High grade hardwood plywood? Aluminum?

Your comment about the maximum bellows draw prompts me to ask another question. Can an extension be worked out? I.E. adding another standard and another bellows or simply a longer bellows?

Thanks for the tip on the tripod mount. I am looking at one of these cameras which is in very good shape, and the mount appears tight.

[Dan Fromm]

Your comment about the maximum bellows draw prompts me to ask another question. Can an extension be worked out? I.E. adding another standard and another bellows or simply a longer bellows?

Not with a GV or GV II. They have fixed bellows and longer rails aren't available.

If you want what a modular monorail camera can do, get one. Likely candidates include older Cambo (SC, NX) and quite a few Sinar models. I mention these because they're both in reasonably good supply and are relatively inexpensive. Each make has its partisans, either will do all you can want.

Its time for you to read about these cameras and educate yourself. You'll learn more that way, and more quickly, than by posting questions as they occur to you and getting random answers of very variable quality.

All that said, you also need to learn the differences between GV and GV II cameras and to learn about Calumet's CC view cameras series. These are all robust, capable and not very expensive. As mentioned, they have focal length limitations but you don't know enough to know whether you'll find their limitations, um, limiting.

[ic-racer]

The original recessed board for the 90mm is thick and some modern shutters won't have enough exposed threads to accept the locking ring.

[Jim Jones]

Lens boards can be built up from 1/8 inch plywood, hardboard, MDF, or other material. The smaller back square doesn't even need to be rigid material, it is merely a light trap. For that, felt is easier to work with. A table saw, drill press, and appropriate hole cutter make the job easy. Someone with just a mat knife and enough patience could also do a good job of it from plywood. Lens boards can also be cut on a table saw from 1/8 inch aluminum, but drilling the hole requires much more care or the right tools.

The original Graphic View from 1941-1949 had a 12.5 inch bellows. I consider it to be the most attractive of all monorail cameras with its hint of art deco styling. The later Graphic View (1950-1967) had a 15.5 inch bellows and the more practical center tilts. Lens boards and backs were interchangeable between the two models.

[DrTang]

I'll dispose of that stinky old lens on the right camera if you like

[Racer X 69]

Not with a GV or GV II. They have fixed bellows and longer rails aren't available.

I suspected that, based on what I have read so far. But as a first camera I doubt that it would be an issue, and my questions here only serve to confirm what I have gotten from reading around the interwebs.


If you want what a modular monorail camera can do, get one. Likely candidates include older Cambo (SC, NX) and quite a few Sinar models. I mention these because they're both in reasonably good supply and are relatively inexpensive. Each make has its partisans, either will do all you can want.

Yes, I have been looking at the other makes, such as the modular types, and so far the Graflex cameras appear to be the most plentiful and have the best cost per return ratio.

Some of the others have popped up in searches, at reasonable costs, but they often are either missing the lens (which is a significant cost) or there are other reasons why they wind up dismissed.


Its time for you to read about these cameras and educate yourself. You'll learn more that way, and more quickly, than by posting questions as they occur to you and getting random answers of very variable quality.

Trust me, I have spent considerable time browsing the threads and articles here and elsewhere, ergo this thread. Ask Mrs. Racer about being an Internet Widow. She is extremely jealous of Dot. You know, Dot Com. She despises that *****. :cool:


All that said, you also need to learn the differences between GV and GV II cameras and to learn about Calumet's CC view cameras series. These are all robust, capable and not very expensive. As mentioned, they have focal length limitations but you don't know enough to know whether you'll find their limitations, um, limiting.

Actually I do think I have become knowledgeable enough to take the next step, which is to find a good camera, and get started. I have read that the lenses these older cameras came with are really pretty good, but also the newer lenses have the improvements like coatings and better manufacturing processes not available and in use 50 or 60 years ago.

Posting this thread is part of that, as after an exhaustive search, I found nothing that helped me to understand how the various lenses attach to the lens boards, and the construction of the lens boards.

So I figure that getting some of the loose ends tied up before laying down cold cash will help me to get off to as best a start as I can. And armed with the tidbits gleaned from responses by those of you with years of experience hopefully I can get off to a good start in large format photography.

Again, thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge!

[Racer X 69]

The original recessed board for the 90mm is thick and some modern shutters won't have enough exposed threads to accept the locking ring.

I see. You see, this is something that after an exhaustive amount of time spent reading about these cameras I was unable to find this information. Sure, it may be out there, but perhaps I was looking in the wrong place.

So one could always fabricate a lens board that has a center which is thin enough and the outer edges thick enough, maybe?

[Racer X 69]

Lens boards can be built up from 1/8 inch plywood, hardboard, MDF, or other material. The smaller back square doesn't even need to be rigid material, it is merely a light trap. For that, felt is easier to work with. A table saw, drill press, and appropriate hole cutter make the job easy. Someone with just a mat knife and enough patience could also do a good job of it from plywood. Lens boards can also be cut on a table saw from 1/8 inch aluminum, but drilling the hole requires much more care or the right tools.

My shop is very well equipped. After spending 30 years as a journeyman mechanic I developed a (home) workshop that is the envy of many. Lathes (metal and wood), drill press, Bridgeport mill, oxy/acetylene gear, wire feed welding gear, etc.

Are the holes for lenses a standard diameter? What I mean is, would a hole saw of a standard fractional size make a suitable hole, or would it be better to set up a cutter on the mill and make the hole that way?


The original Graphic View from 1941-1949 had a 12.5 inch bellows. I consider it to be the most attractive of all monorail cameras with its hint of art deco styling. The later Graphic View (1950-1967) had a 15.5 inch bellows and the more practical center tilts. Lens boards and backs were interchangeable between the two models.

Thank you for the informative and helpful response. Good stuff!

[Racer X 69]

I'll dispose of that stinky old lens on the right camera if you like

I'll make a note of it, and get back to you!

:rolleyes:

[John Kasaian]

I have a GVII and IIRC it uses the 4x4 "c" board which is common to many other cameras. the lens screws into a threaded flange, which has been screwed on to the front of the lens board with wood screws. I hope this helps!

[Racer X 69]

I have a GVII and IIRC it uses the 4x4 "c" board which is common to many other cameras. the lens screws into a threaded flange, which has been screwed on to the front of the lens board with wood screws. I hope this helps!

It does, thank you.

Interesting how there are so many varied methods for lens attachment. Flanges with screws. Retaining rings. And so little information readily accessible to the n00b stumbling about.

[Peter_Jones]

Could you expand on this?

I think it's all been covered by the above posters - basically physical limitations regarding fit, and min/max bellows draw. Ultrawides, long telephoto, and lenses that have a very large image circle for example might need research before purchase. Still leaves a heck of a lot of lenses though :)

I agree with you on the lack of basic info - takes a bit of digging, or just jump in the deep end. ;)

[Racer X 69]

I think it's all been covered by the above posters

Yes, it has. Quite a bit of helpful responses to be sure!

Still, I appreciate your reply.


- basically physical limitations regarding fit, and min/max bellows draw. Ultrawides, long telephoto, and lenses that have a very large image circle for example might need research before purchase.

Absolutely!


Still leaves a heck of a lot of lenses though :)

Without a doubt. The more I read, and the more I interact with folks here, the more I see that there are lots of options.


I agree with you on the lack of basic info

For sure.


- takes a bit of digging, or just jump in the deep end. ;)

I fear that it is going to be a combination of both.

Again, many thanks, to you, and others who choose to provide guidance to a n00b!

[Peter_Jones]

I'm a noob to LF myself, so I know where you're coming from. A bit of a learning curve, but good fun along the way. (if it wasn't fun, we wouldn't do it - or would we ? lol)

[John Kasaian]

It does, thank you.

Interesting how there are so many varied methods for lens attachment. Flanges with screws. Retaining rings. And so little information readily accessible to the n00b stumbling about.

Just to add to the confusion, some lenses, especially newer wide angles, have larger rear elements than the hole required for the shutter, and so must be unscrewed from the shutter when mounting, and then screwed back on once the lens is in situ on the board.

[Racer X 69]

I'm a noob to LF myself, so I know where you're coming from. A bit of a learning curve, but good fun along the way. (if it wasn't fun, we wouldn't do it - or would we ? lol)

It is all about the enjoyment one gets from it, for sure.

I have many hobbies, and if you listen to Mrs. Racer too many.

But overall I am happy, it occupies my idle time, and keeps me out of the bars. And at my age I need glasses!

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h194/racerx6948/Forum%20How%20To/INeedGlasses_zps982c4453.jpg

Cheers!

[Racer X 69]

Just to add to the confusion, some lenses, especially newer wide angles, have larger rear elements than the hole required for the shutter, and so must be unscrewed from the shutter when mounting, and then screwed back on once the lens is in situ on the board.

This is good to know, thanks John!

And of course reminds me of another question I had but didn't ask before. I notice the holes in lensboards are completely round, with no keyway. How is the lens/shutter kept from spinning once mounted, like when fiddling with the shutter settings? Is it simply the friction of the mounting to the board that holds things stationary?

I see on some older setups the lens actually has a flange and there are screws that fix it to the board, but I gather from comments here earlier the lens on more modern boards is secured in a threaded fashion.

Perhaps someone can post a picture or three of the assembly?

[Jim Jones]

Usually friction keeps the shutter from turning on the lens board. Some shutters have a screw protruding from the rear that keys into a hole in the board to prevent turning. This may have been more important on press cameras with linkage to a body shutter release. As you note, newer shutters more likely have a retaining ring to secure them to the lens board. Occasionally a lens will screw directly into a metal board. This is an easy way for a machinist to mount a lens purchased without a flange or retaining ring.

[Carsten Wolff]

If the thread of your shutter turns out to be too short for a thick board, you can also find (or get made by a local fitter) a flange that fixes to the board with screws. Another option is to use a hole-saw or (better) router to recess the retaining ring.
Getting a thin enough board sounds easier, doesn't it? All the best. Don't forget, no matter what vintage...the camera is basically just a fancy articulated light-tight box that separates your groundglass/film from your lens.

[Racer X 69]

Thank you for your comments Carsten!


If the thread of your shutter turns out to be too short for a thick board, you can also find (or get made by a local fitter) a flange that fixes to the board with screws.

That sounds like a good option.


Another option is to use a hole-saw or (better) router to recess the retaining ring.
Getting a thin enough board sounds easier, doesn't it?

This is why I asked if a person who is reasonably handy with things could simply build a lens board. Thin enough where it needs to be, and the correct thickness where it mounts to the standard.


All the best. Don't forget, no matter what vintage...the camera is basically just a fancy articulated light-tight box that separates your groundglass/film from your lens.

That is pretty much what I have gotten from all the reading I have been doing about LF. These cameras are really quite simple, and the most technical parts are the lenses, and with respect to newer lenses, with better optics and shutters, the most costly part of the whole setup.