Film Pricing

[LuisR]

Just looking now at film pricing at B&H and Adorama and it appears that prices have dramatically increased for B&W film. Like an Acros100 single roll is just over $7, 4x5 Acros went from 46 to 56. Even Ilford's prices have increased, FP4 25 4x5 sheets from 29 to 33. Anyone have an idea what is going on? Are they ready to discontinue film? Is it a matter of currency exchange rates?

[vinny]

It's 2013. Niche market.

[Daniel Stone]

Acros 120 on B&H's site is $4.62 according to my screen right now :confused:

EDIT:
unless you're referring to 35mm, which is $6.59/roll, but is currently @ $5.99/roll sale-price

[Peter Gomena]

I checked a few prices just a few days ago and found I still can buy 100 sheets of Ilford FP4+ and HP5+ for about $1/sheet.

What shocks me is that 4x5 Portra 160 is hovering around $3.50-$4/sheet. That's nuts. Large format color film is going to become very scarce very soon at those rates.

Acros is one of my favorite 120 roll films, and it's become more expensive. I have taken a "dollar-cost-average" approach to buying it. Every time I go to the camera store or have a few bucks to spend, I buy a pro pack, whether I'm planning to use it or not. It's surprising how quickly you can build up a stock that way.

[LuisR]

Acros 120 on B&H's site is $4.62 according to my screen right now :confused:

EDIT:
unless you're referring to 35mm, which is $6.59/roll, but is currently @ $5.99/roll sale-price

Most of the prices are substantially up for both Ilford and Fuji, certainly large format. I can understand the price rising slightly, but Acros 4x5 25 shts from 46 to 56 and FP4 from 29 to 33? Something else seems to be at work here.

[LuisR]

Acros 120 on B&H's site is $4.62 according to my screen right now :confused:

EDIT:
unless you're referring to 35mm, which is $6.59/roll, but is currently @ $5.99/roll sale-price

$6 per roll, what a bargain!!!!!!! I also use 35mm, but I may have to start counting frames.

[Daniel Stone]

$6 per roll, what a bargain!!!!!!! I also use 35mm, but I may have to start counting frames.

I never claimed it'd be a price I'd pay ;)

for 35mm(which I hardly ever shoot these days, 645 is usually the smallest I'll use), I just shoot Tmax 400 for b/w. Mostly slides and Portra 400 these days goes through the Nikons, if I'm not using 120/220 and the Pentax

[Kodachrome25]

A good portion of your posts cite price as a concern and while you are not alone in this, many of us have accepted that film, paper and even chemistry prices are going to up, not down and we have made the appropriate arrangements in preparation thereof.

We also realize the expected price increases do not necessarily mean a product is being discontinued. Having said that, yeah, Fuji is really jacking it up, I don't use Acros in 4x5 but I love it in 120 and bought several hundred rolls of it when Adorama had it at less than $3 a roll.

Like Vinny said, it is a niche market, this is the new reality.

[Peter Gomena]

Yep.

[LuisR]

A good portion of your posts cite price as a concern and while you are not alone in this, many of us have accepted that film, paper and even chemistry prices are going to up, not down and we have made the appropriate arrangements in preparation thereof.

We also realize the expected price increases do not necessarily mean a product is being discontinued. Having said that, yeah, Fuji is really jacking it up, I don't use Acros in 4x5 but I love it in 120 and bought several hundred rolls of it when Adorama had it at less than $3 a roll.

Like Vinny said, it is a niche market, this is the new reality.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I presume that the majority of commercial photographers using large format are using color more than B&W. Thus the majority of users for B&W are "fine-arts" and hobbyist photographers, which I suspect is an even smaller market than color. This and future increase in prices can only result in a smaller user base, for which production of large format film in both color and B&W will become increasingly difficult for the large manufacturers such as Fuji and Ilford to justify. While there is no substitute for large format, photographers will devise to get around the limitations by using digital. Lets face it, we can begin counting the days until the end of film photography.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I presume that the majority of commercial photographers using large format...Both of them? :D

[goamules]

Ha! Good one Sal. Yeah, I'm still shooting film, even 35mm, "because I can." And because of it's history, and quality cameras and lenses. I figure some day, it will be just too darn expensive, but it isn't yet. I mix it up; snapshots with digital, careful shooting with film, wetplate for when I want to make my own film. But my 1 or 2 boxes of LF color have been expensive through all phases.

[Corran]

Fuji announced the increase months ago. I stocked up in May and June, putting several thousand into a 1-2 year supply, hopefully.

[Kodachrome25]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I presume that the majority of commercial photographers using large format are using color more than B&W. Thus the majority of users for B&W are "fine-arts" and hobbyist photographers, which I suspect is an even smaller market than color. This and future increase in prices can only result in a smaller user base, for which production of large format film in both color and B&W will become increasingly difficult for the large manufacturers such as Fuji and Ilford to justify. While there is no substitute for large format, photographers will devise to get around the limitations by using digital. Lets face it, we can begin counting the days until the end of film photography.

Well most commercial shooters who used large format have already switched to digital for most of their output, so that switch has already occurred, hence much of the gear showing up used and being a relative bargain to get into from a casual and hobby standpoint. But in terms of further contraction, it is color that will continue to see the most if not totally go away within 10 year's time, Fuji is showing strong signs of that for sure.

But Ilford has already re-tooled and is in a great position to keep posting modest profits for years to come as black and white has enjoyed a bit of a resurgence and has a very steady user base, regardless of format. It seems you are very interested in counting the days until film is no more, a viewpoint and speculation that in some way, is feeding you some form of satisfaction. If you are genuinely interested in using film, then I suggest you do what many of us have done and make the appropriate arrangements in terms of sustained use and expectations and spread the visual cues as to why film is still great to use and worth making images with....otherwise I have my suspicions about what your motivations are for being on the forum.

Personally, I need to be able to make the transition from long time commercial photographer to all black and white / hand crafted silver gelatin print fine art photographer more than I need to shoot large format as I feel that is going to be the best future for me, so I help to try to steer film into the hands of those who are deciding which way to go, not steer them out of film with speculative discourse that is still a long ways off in terms of black and white's future...

Bottom line, you seem to think that all film is going away, including black and white and most will very much disagree with you. Focus on photography, not industry speculation....but if you can not afford film, I have to imagine you can not afford what are now considered the digital alternatives to medium format either, let alone large format so you have other challenges to consider that are indeed separate issues from the expected price increases of film.

[John Kasaian]

Shoot smarter by making each sheet count and so use less film.
That's what I learned early on shooting 8x10 format, anyway.
Keeping stockpile of your favorite emulsion at good prices is certainly wise, but with the latest price increase it is now a case of the cow has already left the barn!
So it helps to be flexible. Paper negatives, and X-ray film are fun pursuits. I've still got APHS and a few hundred sheets of Arista/Foma (from back when Freestyle was selling the stuff cheap) in the freezer.
I think it was about a decade ago when Kodak shut down it's production while moving to a new building and at the same time Ilford, IIRC, filed for bankruptcy protection---the supply of Kodak and Ilford products dried up overnight and remained that way for many months---so the lesson to learn is to be resourceful.
If you can't afford to fill your freezer with TMAX, fill it with Arista or Xray or paper and learn how to use it. That way you'll still be in business.
If your preferred emulsion is FP-4+, don't just buy an extra box, buy two (or more if you can) and replace the box you're working from as soon as you first open it--it's likely going to be more expensive to replace somewhere down the road.My 2-cents anyway

[Vaughn]

I started buying 120 roll film in 1975. According to an on-line inflation rate calculator, things in general have increased in price by a factor of 4 since then. Can't remember exactly what I paid for film back then (but probably around $2 a roll?), but today's prices seem to be in line when considering increase in costs due to inflation.

[ROL]

You sound like the farmer that visited the hooker. First, he wanted everything. Then he got to the cost and complained... so didn't get everything. Then he complained it was too dry. Then he complained it was too wet. After all was done and he was getting dressed to leave... he wanted a free hat.

You pay to play even if it hurts.

If "it" hurts after the visit, then you prolly got sump'n extra. ;)

[Leigh]

...but Acros 4x5 25 shts from 46 to 56
Acrps 4x5 is 20 sheets per box, not 25 (at least here in the US).

The price of silver is way up.

- Leigh

[Jim Andrada]

Acros is 20 sheets per box in Japan as well - probably safe to say it's that way everywhere.

[LuisR]

Well most commercial shooters who used large format have already switched to digital for most of their output, so that switch has already occurred, hence much of the gear showing up used and being a relative bargain to get into from a casual and hobby standpoint. But in terms of further contraction, it is color that will continue to see the most if not totally go away within 10 year's time, Fuji is showing strong signs of that for sure.

But Ilford has already re-tooled and is in a great position to keep posting modest profits for years to come as black and white has enjoyed a bit of a resurgence and has a very steady user base, regardless of format. It seems you are very interested in counting the days until film is no more, a viewpoint and speculation that in some way, is feeding you some form of satisfaction. If you are genuinely interested in using film, then I suggest you do what many of us have done and make the appropriate arrangements in terms of sustained use and expectations and spread the visual cues as to why film is still great to use and worth making images with....otherwise I have my suspicions about what your motivations are for being on the forum.

Personally, I need to be able to make the transition from long time commercial photographer to all black and white / hand crafted silver gelatin print fine art photographer more than I need to shoot large format as I feel that is going to be the best future for me, so I help to try to steer film into the hands of those who are deciding which way to go, not steer them out of film with speculative discourse that is still a long ways off in terms of black and white's future...

Bottom line, you seem to think that all film is going away, including black and white and most will very much disagree with you. Focus on photography, not industry speculation....but if you can not afford film, I have to imagine you can not afford what are now considered the digital alternatives to medium format either, let alone large format so you have other challenges to consider that are indeed separate issues from the expected price increases of film.

I have been photographing since the early 70s though on a non-professional basis up until this day, and this past year began using large format, thus my interest in joining the forum. I experimented with digital, and while I still have a digital camera (NEX-5 using my Leitz and Zeiss lenses) but found the process not to my manner of working. I have persuaded other friends to return to film after having left it many years and they are happy I did. Digital certainly does not need me to advance its march and I also certainly have nothing to gain by film's demise. I don't want film to disappear but it seems that most photographers are in denial on where film is headed. Whether film physically disappears from the market or its price goes beyond the reach of non-professional photographers, the result will be the same.

[Kodachrome25]

I don't want film to disappear but it seems that most photographers are in denial on where film is headed. Whether film physically disappears from the market or its price goes beyond the reach of non-professional photographers, the result will be the same.

Luis, thanks for outlining your take a bit better, I appreciate it. When we refer to where film is headed, that is too broad in my opinion. Color still and motion stock, yeah...not looking too good for the long term. But black and white...I think it will stick around awhile and stay within the means of those who expect adjustments to be made for rising material, operational costs, declining demand and inflation.

But ultimately, where it is headed is where we all take it. I am not 100% certain that I can count on getting the emulsions I want for the prices I think I will be able to afford 10-15 years from now so that is exactly the supply I have in deep freeze at the moment.

It's kind of like a life lesson in disguise, no one knows where we are all headed and how we will get there, but in the end you have to follow your heart and keep the faith...live for today like tomorrow may never matter. Keep the faith Luis, buy what you can afford and enjoy what we have today...it's pretty amazing we still have that given how fast the world is changing.

[John Kasaian]

Luis, thanks for outlining your take a bit better, I appreciate it. When we refer to where film is headed, that is too broad in my opinion. Color still and motion stock, yeah...not looking too good for the long term. But black and white...I think it will stick around awhile and stay within the means of those who expect adjustments to be made for rising material, operational costs, declining demand and inflation.

But ultimately, where it is headed is where we all take it. I am not 100% certain that I can count on getting the emulsions I want for the prices I think I will be able to afford 10-15 years from now so that is exactly the supply I have in deep freeze at the moment.

It's kind of like a life lesson in disguise, no one knows where we are all headed and how we will get there, but in the end you have to follow your heart and keep the faith...live for today like tomorrow may never matter. Keep the faith Luis, buy what you can afford and enjoy what we have today...it's pretty amazing we still have that given how fast the world is changing.

You can always coat glass plates! :)

[dwross]

You can always coat glass plates! :)

...or film.

[bigdog]

Photography is not for the faint of wallet.

[jp]

You can always coat glass plates! :)

With creativity, one might be able to better pricewise, but B&S's wet plate kits are similar in per-cost basis for 8x10 to Kodak TMY2 film. $7ish per shot not including time or glass.

[John Kasaian]

Whenever I find myself complaining about the cost of film I think of Edward Weston and other talented photographers who worked during the Great Depression and later under the shortages imposed by WW2. They used whatever materials they could afford, and in some circumstances maybe the only stuff that was available.
And they still took some pretty incredible photographs.
If I had to cut down my roll of surplus aerial film, or break into that 10 year old box of APHS because that was all I had or could afford it wouldn't---shouldn't deter me from making photographs.
X ray film is extraordinarily cheap right now---it's interesting to learn---and IMHO a good hedge fund to keep alongside last season's venison and your bride's Skinny Cows in the Amana.
just sayin'

[David Aimone]

X-Ray film is intriguing at about 10 cents a 4x5 sheet (cut from 8x10). What are the drawbacks/differences from standard photographic film, and why is it so cheap?


Whenever I find myself complaining about the cost of film I think of Edward Weston and other talented photographers who worked during the Great Depression and later under the shortages imposed by WW2. They used whatever materials they could afford, and in some circumstances maybe the only stuff that was available.
And they still took some pretty incredible photographs.
If I had to cut down my roll of surplus aerial film, or break into that 10 year old box of APHS because that was all I had or could afford it wouldn't---shouldn't deter me from making photographs.
X ray film is extraordinarily cheap right now---it's interesting to learn---and IMHO a good hedge fund to keep alongside last season's venison and your bride's Skinny Cows in the Amana.
just sayin'

[Shootar401]

Once I make the move to NYC B&H will be a short walk away. I plan on stocking up on film, spending about $1000 a month for a year and calling it quits. That should last me the rest of my life at the rate I shoot, which is not that much.

[Vaughn]

X-Ray film is intriguing at about 10 cents a 4x5 sheet (cut from 8x10). What are the drawbacks/differences from standard photographic film, and why is it so cheap?

Most have emulsion on both sides -- this can make for soft images depending on the printing method. Also scratches easily, so one must be a bit careful and/or adapt different developing techniques.

No anti-halation layer.

[David_Senesac]

Painful

Had bought 3 boxes of Provia before the price increase. Read the Fuji announcement on film and understand they are doing the proper thing considering the dwindling market. Now just went back for 3 more boxes and see they have tacked on another $10 a box so tis $3.25 a sheet now. With development at $2.50 a sheet that is a $5.75 base cost every time I actuate the shutter release...ouch

Looks like not too far into the future I am going to have to face the reality of stepping down to the unpleasant to this person DSLR world and accept the reduced resolution as I certainly will never be able to afford an IQ180. And just use my 4x5 occasionally. Just last week I lugged 70 pounds climbing 3900 feet over a nortorious 11.7k pass in the High Sierra. And yes it was unpleasant. For a 60s generation guy nearing retirement age, I will need to change regardless as the LF gear is increasingly too heavy for me to carry into those areas I am used to.

[Uri A]

Try living in Australia. Take the B&H price on ANYTHING and just double it. :(

[Terry Moore]

Other than the big auction site are there other sources of x-ray film?

[Corran]

http://cxsonline.com/

[Terry Moore]

Thanks!

[munz6869]

Try living in Australia. Take the B&H price on ANYTHING and just double it.

Except Kodak TXP320, which is strangely cheaper here (I asked Vanbar, and they couldn't explain why either). I've sure stocked up on (B&H) Fuji Acros 100 120 though...

Marc!