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ridax
10-Jul-2013, 11:58
There were posts on between the lens shutter efficiency recently in another thread discussing a specific shutter speed tester... I usually don't like to start new threads (except when asking an urgent question). When I want to say something that I think other people should know I actually prefer to wait for the topic to be put on by others; that way I feel more confident people really want to explore it. But this time I think the topic deserves way more then a casual reference in a discussion of testing devices (ironically going on in two separate threads already now - where it may get buried down and lost).

The problem: no shutter opens and closes perfectly immediately. Opening and closing of the blades takes time, and the whole working cycle includes this opening and closing time along with the time the shutter stays open completely. Set on the fastest speed, the shutter starts closing as soon as it is fully open. In this case, its efficiency is somewhat about 50% (it's way more complicated really as many factors influence the actual percentage - the number of the blades and their shapes, weight of the blades and other moving parts, etc. but I think we don't need to go that far in this thread). 50% efficiency means that to let the same amount of light through, the shutter has to stay more or less open during the time twice as long as a perfect 100%-efficient shutter (that opens and closes in no time) would.

First, coming back to shutter speed testing - what do we want those tests for? When concerned about the motion blur danger, we naturally should measure the time from the beginning of the opening till the end of the closing processes. But when we are concerned about exposure accuracy, we have to measure the equivalent speed of a perfect shutter, not the actual speed of the shutter tested - i.e. evaluate the total amount of light that gets through. We may want quite different testers for the two tasks. For exposure tests, an integrator is a natural way to go (a flashmeter works great btw. Though I may be too naive a guy to believe there are still a lot of photographers out there carrying flashmeters instead of smartphones :) ).

It's usually said a shutter efficiency is that low only with its fastest speed and only when the aperture used is nearly as large as the maximum shutter opening. While the latter is perfectly true, and stopping the lens down really makes the shutter efficiency greater, the former statement is not true for the vast majority of real world shutters. In textbooks, a between the lens shutters is said to open quickly, then stay open (except on the fastest speed) for the time needed and then quickly close. In reality, ONLY Compurs and Compounds work like this. (And so do Compur clones like the Russian Moment found on the Moskva roll film cameras, and smaller sized shutters on Smena and Liubitel - one of which is seen in the pictures the tester designer has posted in the above mentioned thread btw.)

ALL other shutters that I've put my hands on (including Copal, Copal-Press, Prontor-Press, Prontor Professional, Seiko, Alphax, Betax, and so on) work this way on the really slow speeds only, very often no faster then 1/15. And with the faster speeds, the retarding device does not wait till the blades are open; it just slows down the blades' movement itself. The result is the same really low (circa 50%) shutter efficiency on all the faster speeds (often enough, just from 1/30 or so for shutters as modest in size as #1).

Why do they manufacture them like this? That's simlple: the springs may be weaker; the materials used may be of lesser quality - cheaper and softer and easier to deal with in production. A number or parts may just be pressed out of those softer materials instead of being machined out of hard stainless steel. The shutter doesn't need to be as robust as a Compur. A flimsy shutter will work OK and last long enough if its parts move way more slowly at all the speeds but the fastest one. The shutter comes out cheaper and drives the really costly highly efficient but nevertheless bulletproof Compur out of the market. (Add a 5-blade iris instead of a round one, and you've won the price competition completely.)

Lots of people do not like Compurs though. Some even spend money to have their lenses remounted into Copals, especially when the shutters are large. There really is a reason for that. With their fast moving and abruptly stopping blades and other parts, bigger Compurs can considerably shake the lens and the camera. It's less dangerous for a heavy metal 8x10 Linhof Kardan Color or a Calumet C-1 but can be a disaster for a wooden field. That's why Herr Deckel did not manufacture bigger Compurs in those old days (though the dial-set Compurs were, and still are, far less prone to vibration then the later rim-set ones) but offering only Compounds in the larger sizes. The pneumatic retarding device used in the Compound is also a natural shock absorber - and btw one of the best ever invented. And Compound is a pretty efficient shutter with fast moving blades that open quickly, then stop and stay open, and then quickly close. I'd never trade a good clean Compound for any Copal or a Prontor - except for shooting slide films, as mechanical shutters are more accurate of course.


How does this influence the picture?

First, motion blur looks really bad too often (maybe except when all the motion goes in one direction, as with a steady wind or movement of the subject itself; but I'd say even in those situations the blur does not come out nice every time). A Compur (or a Compound) having 50% efficiency at 1/250 of a second spends 1/500 on opening its blades and 1/500 on closing them - at all speeds alike. Set at 1/30, it would be actually open for a negligible fraction of a second more then 1/30. Its efficiency at 1/30 would be very close to 100%. ANY other shutter - that has its blades moving slower at slower speeds - would maintain 50% efficiency at 1/30 and will actually stay more or less open for 2/30 = 1/15. For maintaining, say, a tree leaves sharp in a slight wind, that difference may turn out to be fatal.

Second, the bigger part of the actual exposure time the shutter blades still get in the way, the more they influence the character of the out of focus parts of the image - just like the aperture blades do. If the opening and closing shutter blades could maintain the opening itself perfectly round all their moving cycle through, that could be good news actually. In that case the picture could possibly look better then with a very efficient shutter - al least with a so-so lens having little ability to make a good looking out of focus blur on its own (though the picture by a good lens that blurs the out of focus image beautifully could be quite a bit spoiled even in this situation). But a half-open shutter is not a round aperture maker at all. What it actually makes is a badly misshapen star-like opening. Imagine a picture made with that kind of aperture in your lens... or better still, stop your shutter blades in the half-open position and actually see the resulting picture. Yes tastes differ of course but I personally was just shocked by the nasty shapes I saw out of focus the day I run a test like this.

Certainly a real picture taken with a slow-blades shutter is never as ugly because the blades are moving and also because the shutter is fully open part of the exposure time. But the resulting picture is still somewhat in-between the normal one and the one visible in the above test. And this resulting picture is not quite as beautiful as the one taken with a highly efficient shutter.

jp
10-Jul-2013, 15:34
I should stay out of this. Let's see some emperical testing.

How does a focal plane shutter compare with this theory?

ridax
10-Jul-2013, 15:48
How does a focal plane shutter compare with this theory?

Just nothing to compare here. A focal plane shutter is a completely different beast. The only influence of a FP shutter low in its efficiency on the image itself is distorting the shapes of the moving subjects (hence those elliptical car wheels, etc.) due to the different parts of the frame not being exposed at the same time.

Jac@stafford.net
10-Jul-2013, 17:07
The OP's speculations have little to do with application. Nothing to see here. Move on.

ridax
10-Jul-2013, 23:11
The OP's speculations have little to do with application. Nothing to see here. Move on.

I've just imagined myself coming up into all the threads discussing topics I am not interested in myself only to post a statement about my own lack of interest in each of those. Stating nothing more then my own desire to ignore that completely and move on. Sounds great, eh? :)

That wouldn't be worth replying of course - except I think I really should make two points here. (1) The above are not speculations but facts. (2) Those are actually not mine. All these facts are well known to those skilled in the art (as they say in the patent texts) - actually, in both the shutter making art and in the scientific and technical photography art.

Those facts are not widely published in popular literature though - at least list not in English (in some other languages, all the above actually is). Or, more correctly speaking, some parts of that are published and are discussed here and there (motion blur being one topic, shutter vibration being another, constructing or choosing a speed tester being still another separate topic, etc., etc.). But all those topics (= applications) aren't usually connected in any way, and one has really hard times finding all the nuances of choosing a shutter and using it in the most sensible way.

Sorry Jac for taking your time with that longish post above. Yes I've foreseen a number of people reacting exactly like this. As I said, that's one of the reasons I don't like starting new threads in forums. But still this time I thought I'd better do the job of taking all those shutter-related topics in one place for the future reference nevertheless. Hope those who find it too boring would kindly forgive me before they successfully move on.

Neal Chaves
11-Jul-2013, 06:43
I didn't find this boring at all. It helped to answer some questions about leaf shutters that I have had since I worked on developing the Ghostmaster in the 1990s. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101580-Build-your-own-Ghostmaster

I gradually moved away from Compur shutters to Copals, because Compurs seemed more troublesome. However, I was able to pull every part out of a Compur 0, change the shutter blades and reassemble myself without much trouble.

E. von Hoegh
11-Jul-2013, 07:04
The OP's speculations have little to do with application. Nothing to see here. Move on.

Really? What an arrogant thing to post. It so happens that his observations and information are spot on according to my knowledge and experience. Just because you are not interested does not mean others will not find the information helpful.

Jim Jones
11-Jul-2013, 08:29
I'm with von Hoegh. Ridas's accurate and thorough analysis illuminates often overlooked shutter characteristics. We need more such enlightening posts and less personal quibbling.

E. von Hoegh
11-Jul-2013, 08:47
You are right, and I hope he accepts my apology.

Speaking to the issue of shutter accuracy, we are speaking of conventional leaf shutters, correct? I ask because I have two different unusual (to me) shutters from an aerial camera lens which strike me as being highly efficient.

The OP was utterly and absolutely clear what type of shutters he was referring to, in his original and subsequent posts. Did you read them with any care and attention at all?
The OP is a wonderful resource of knowledge for this forum. Too bad we don't have enough teachers like him/her.

Bernice Loui
11-Jul-2013, 09:39
Many, many years ago I took apart an older Compur shutter and marveled at how it was made. The precision, the build quality and more. There was a special high tension spring that was engaged only on the highest shutter speed to help drive the shutter blades faster and much more.

The highly market favored Copal shutters are not made this way.

Some time later I decided that Iris that are less than round (typical 5 blade Copal) produced effects in images made that did not appeal to me which caused me to switch over to older Compur shutters or use lenses in barrel with a Sinar shutter.

At some point I happened upon a technical brief published by Sinar about shutter efficiency which discussed some of these same points brought up in this discussion.

I'm not convinced many of the "innovations" in large format image making hardware are true improvements, rather side ways marketing driven changes to promote image makers to spend funds on the latest and not always the greatest. Photographic hardware manufactures know image makers like new toys or toys that are perceived to create expressive images for them.

Knowing one's tool of the craft extremely well and knowing how to use them based on what their limitations and strengths are can only improve the end results.
It is kernels of wisdom like this that add to knowing how one's tools of creativity work that can make real differences in the images created.


Bernice


Technically enlightened photographers will appreciate your analysis. Thanks for posting.

Ken Lee
11-Jul-2013, 10:37
The problem: no shutter opens and closes perfectly immediately.

..In textbooks, a between the lens shutters is said to open quickly, then stay open (except on the fastest speed) for the time needed and then quickly close. In reality, ONLY Compurs and Compounds work like this. (And so do Compur clones like the Russian Moment found on the Moskva roll film cameras, and smaller sized shutters on Smena and Liubitel - one of which is seen in the pictures the tester designer has posted in the above mentioned thread btw.)

ALL other shutters that I've put my hands on (including Copal, Copal-Press, Prontor-Press, Prontor Professional, Seiko, Alphax, Betax, and so on) work this way on the really slow speeds only, very often no faster then 1/15. And with the faster speeds, the retarding device does not wait till the blades are open; it just slows down the blades' movement itself. The result is the same really low (circa 50%) shutter efficiency on all the faster speeds (often enough, just from 1/30 or so for shutters as modest in size as #1).

First, motion blur looks really bad too often (maybe except when all the motion goes in one direction, as with a steady wind or movement of the subject itself; but I'd say even in those situations the blur does not come out nice every time).

Second, the bigger part of the actual exposure time the shutter blades still get in the way, the more they influence the character of the out of focus parts of the image - just like the aperture blades do.

I've often wondered why I'm drawn photos made with longe exposures, and thought it had to do with photo-chemistry, reciprocity, etc. There's another aspect to it: the shutter.

Thanks for your explanation: it encourages us to shoot subjects which are stationary - at slower shutter speeds when possible - with barrel-mounted lenses when possible as Bernice has pointed out - for the sake of Picture BEAUTY.

DannL
11-Jul-2013, 11:30
I spend most of my time these days using cameras fitted with a barrel lens, and a lens cap for beginning and ending exposures. If your looking for images that have character, that's really the way to go. On the flip side, if your subject moves during the exposure you may end with an image lacking a certain character. ;-)

I think the iris in my newest brass lens has about 17 blades. It makes for a perty round aperture. I just replaced the curtain in the Thornton-Pickard shutter that came with that outfit. I'm very interested in seeing what character it might impart, if any. I must admit that I receive the most pleasure from pictures that are anything but sharp.

Arne Croell
11-Jul-2013, 12:44
A short remark on the number and shape of aperture blades in Compurs: not all of them are created equal. The last versions, which have linearly spaced aperture scales and came to market sometimes in the 1960's, have only 5 blades, similar to current Copals. Apart from the aperture scale, they are also distinguished by the "modern" blocky design of the shutter speed ring* instead of the finely serrated one of earlier Synchro-Compurs, and the use of plastic-tipped levers (the modern Copal shutters essentially copied this design). Late versions of this Compur are completely black, earlier ones have a chrome-plated ring and white plastic tips. The maximum shutter speed of the size 1 was also changed from 1/400s to 1/500s at the time.

*The shutter speed rings of the Special Linhof "Technika" versions of this newer Compur had three rows of small chrome-plated squares.

rcmartins
11-Jul-2013, 15:24
I couldn't agree more with the OP. I have always thought that exposures on the longer side of things were preferable not only because of the presented reasons of better exposure, better out of focus rendition and less artifacts resulting from non-circular openings but for two additional reasons that I haven't had the time to explore further: i) exposure should not be homogenous in less efficient shutters giving rise to images with brighter centers and darker borders, akin to vignetting, since the center opens first and closes last, and ii) the center could have a lower definition resulting from heavy diffraction from very small openings with proportionatelly longer times in short exposures. Has anyone found these to be of significant importance or is just irrelevant in the leaf shutters of LF cameras? I honestly do not know and would like to.
Shutters are precision devices that are hard to design and manufacture. From my knowledge in materials and electronics I believe much better shutters could be created nowadays. However, unfortunately, I do not believe there could be a market strong enough to make the prices competitive or even acceptable.

jp
11-Jul-2013, 18:06
I don't understand the term "efficiency" here, and that's a critical part of the OPs discussion. To me efficiency is a ratio of work/energy input and output, or efficiency is a word for thrift. Is the OP talking of some sort of time/light throughput/motion correlation and calling it efficiency?

I too prefer older lenses and shutters for their nice round irises.

DannL
11-Jul-2013, 19:12
I found this, which should help . . . http://www.idigitalphoto.com/dictionary/shutter_efficiency

Tin Can
11-Jul-2013, 19:35
98639

Jim Galli
11-Jul-2013, 19:59
Ridax, your math and your science are impeccable of course. Thank you for an interesting topic (like water in the desert these days it seems.)

The only thing I might question is your urgency.

Inefficiency is inherent in these giant old school cameras. It's something we accept with the territory. And of course we compensate for it in many ways. First of all brute force. With an 18X24mm sensor in a Nikon camera, the kind of efficiency you're concerning yourself and others about is absolutely imperative. And that is why they make such lovely pictures.

But with these brute's we're talking about here, a few milliseconds would be an error volume I'd never waste a microsecond worrying about. Oh that I could narrow my error volume down to anywhere close!

Rather like driving a Model A Ford, something I also waste my time doing. I'm painfully aware that the mechanical brakes are grossly inefficient by any modern standard! But I still drive the car, and I compensate as best I can by trying to be far more aware of what people in front of me are doing, and keeping all kinds of options open in case the worst happens. I plan my stops well in advance of when I'm driving the late model iron, and I'm constantly making myself aware of possible escape routes. Compensation.

So I guess I challenge whether a small error in the shutter will make a difference in . . . picture BEAUTY. Never-the-less, the entire time I read, I was lamenting losing my lovely Compur 3 electronic that just traveled off to Hong Kong. What a shutter!

Jody_S
11-Jul-2013, 20:25
I have speculated along these lines, having worked on a few hundred different shutters of many, many brands. Occasionally, when test firing one in front of a light, I can notice the image I retain is not circular, but this doesn't happen very often. I would think that at the stated 50% 'efficiency', this would be quite noticeable.

However, I also found the misuse of the word 'efficiency' to be confusing. I would prefer to describe a shutter at a given speed as '' 50% ideal ''. Getting more rigorous than this would be an interesting calculus problem, but calculus is just a fading memory for me.

ridax
12-Jul-2013, 08:58
A Compur (or a Compound) having 50% efficiency at 1/250 of a second spends 1/500 on opening its blades and 1/500 on closing them - at all speeds alike.

Many many thanks for the kind words which I really appreciate but I'm awfully sorry I've just noticed a mistake in my example cited above. At 1/250, a 50% efficient shutter actually goes through its complete working cycle in 2/250 =1/125, so it spends 1/250 to open and 1/250 to close (not 1/500).

... But again all is a bit more complicated in reality. If the shutter is designed with using the lens well stopped down in mind, that shutter is more likely to be adjusted for better exposure accuracy with small lens apertures, and as the shutter efficiency increases with stopping the lens down, at 1/250 such shutter would probably be close to spending 1/250 on the full cycle (instead of the 1/125 needed for the accurate exposure with a wide aperture), opening in a 1/500 and closing in a 1/500 indeed. And thus such shutter, accurate for the lens stopped-down, would unavoidably underexpose the frames taken with a wide-open lens. And similarly, a shutter adjusted for better accuracy at fast f-stops would deliver overexposure with small apertures.

That's still another point btw. A shutter low in its efficiency can't maintain the same exposure accuracy at all the lens f-stops. So the more speeds a shutter is running with low efficiency, the more exposure problems are possible in practice. Though those problems are certainly not big enough to worry about except in the extreme cases, and only with films really narrow in their exposure latitude (such as the slide ones).


From my knowledge in materials and electronics I believe much better shutters could be created nowadays. However, unfortunately, I do not believe there could be a market strong enough to make the prices competitive or even acceptable.

I totally agree. For example, an electronic shutter can be made programmable to correct for the exposure difference at least. But who wants it badly enough to be ready to pay for it? Not me certainly.

ridax
12-Jul-2013, 09:02
To me efficiency is a ratio of work/energy input and output, or efficiency is a word for thrift. Is the OP talking of some sort of time/light throughput/motion correlation and calling it efficiency?

Yes. That usually sounds somewhat strange to those accustomed to the term usage as applied to motors, etc. but that's what is meant by efficiency in photographic shutters. I.e. it is the ratio of total light passed by a shutter during exposure of given duration compared with the light that would be passed by a perfect shutter open for the same duration, as the dictionary link in post #17 states. Or - which is actually the same put in other words and results in exactly the same numbers - the ratio of time needed for a shutter to go through the complete cycle of opening, staying open, and closing, to the time needed for a perfect shutter passing the same amount of light through. So in terms of energy - think of the energy (=light) input into the shutter to the amount of energy coming out of the shutter to the film.


Inefficiency is inherent in these giant old school cameras.

I'm afraid that's not that kind of efficiency.... A wooden box with a Daguerreotype plate inside may be way less efficient a tool for a photojournalist then a DSLR but that box camera's shutter is about 100% efficient regardless of the type (including a hat) because the exposure is always much much longer then the time needed to open the lens and to close it. And the fast and really great DSLR shutter is much much less efficient at its 1/8000 of a second.

(And btw I bet driving your Ford "A" is a more efficient way to get yourself into the mood you want than driving any modern car - regardless of the fact that the modern car is more efficient in saving money spent on gasoline...)

The term is indeed a bit confusing. Problem is, this word has too broad a meaning in English - including those that aren't free from certain emotional content, especially for the fine arts people who may have a strong unconscious opposition to it just from the start. There are very special terms for the phenomenon in other tongs (in Russian, its somewhat longish so a 3-letter abbreviation is adopted for it; that abbreviation is always recognized as a purely technical term, and so it usually does not arise any emotions at all). But here are the options an on-line translator offers for the English version: (1) efficiency; (2) performance (another word with a terribly broad meaning!); (3) coefficient of performance (not to sweet sounding a phrase I'm afraid), and even (4) coefficient of efficiency (!!!). So I'm afraid the traditional "efficiency" is still the best one to choose.


I would prefer to describe a shutter at a given speed as " 50% ideal ".

I think this sounds reasonable but still I doubt we should introduce new technical terms instead of the well established ones - even if those old ones are not ideal... and aren't the most efficient. :)

ridax
12-Jul-2013, 09:03
two additional reasons that I haven't had the time to explore further: i) exposure should not be homogenous in less efficient shutters giving rise to images with brighter centers and darker borders, akin to vignetting, since the center opens first and closes last, and ii) the center could have a lower definition resulting from heavy diffraction from very small openings with proportionatelly longer times in short exposures. Has anyone found these to be of significant importance or is just irrelevant in the leaf shutters of LF cameras?

I believe diffraction is not significant here as the exposure the shutter makes while it is open very little, is negligible compared to the wider opened shutter exposure. With a really small opening (= f-stop), we'd need much more time then the total time the shutter is open for the correct exposure with a fast f-stop - to say nothing of that fraction of the total time during which the shutter still maintains that small opening.

Vignetting problems may (and actually do) arise with the leaf shutter put behind or in front of the lens (or in another place far enough from the aperture). But with the normal shutter position, the moving shutter blades just function similarly to the aperture blades. Thus a shutter low in its efficiency would actually reduce vignetting (like stopping the lens down does) and make the illumination a bit more even across the film frame. But I don't think that's very useful in practice. Actually stopping the lens down would be a better solution indeed.


Over analyzing this leads to fewer photos.

Yes I think so, too. But I also believe when those questions do come up, having the answers at hand leads to more (and better) photos. And the absence of answers leads to the need to reinvent the wheel; that takes time and effort and draws one away from taking photos. And besides, knowing I am reinventing wheels is just frustrating - for me at least.

Jac@stafford.net
12-Jul-2013, 09:47
[...] exposure should not be homogenous in less efficient shutters giving rise to images with brighter centers and darker borders, akin to vignetting, since the center opens first and closes last [...]

Perhaps the OP can correct if I am wrong. I don't think so. As the iris-type shutter opens or closes, the light admitted is spread over the whole film or sensor.

Leigh
12-Jul-2013, 12:51
As the iris-type shutter opens or closes, the light admitted is spread over the whole film or sensor.
That's correct.

The shutter blades do not create a focused image on the film, any more than the aperture blades do.

The shutter opening only controls the amount of light passing through the lens to the film.

- Leigh