Wow teaching film is the bomb.

[Kirk Gittings]

Its been years, maybe 12 or more, since I taught a beginning university level film class. I completely forgot about the thrill that kids get when they see their first negatives that they created with their own hands. Their enthusiasm has been a huge high for me as well. There is simply no equivalent high for students when I teach a digital class. Long live film-now an alternative process to most kids.

[Kimberly Anderson]

Yes. You. Hit. Nail. On. Head.

[Jac@stafford.net]

When we had a darkroom, students' prints were the worst I've seen in forty years. Why? Because they could not imagine spending as little time making a print as the digital camera students did.

[Tin Can]

I am getting a of pressure from young people to get my darkroom done, unfortunately I work slow. I still use my bathroom darkroom.

I was showing my progress to a 28 year old woman. She saw my chemical storage bottles and before I could stop her, she unscrewed the Stop and took a big huff.

She explained it had been many years since she had smelled stop bath.

She was disappointed I was using citric acid.

I need to make her happy...

I am an old fool.

[Corran]

I teach digital photography classes. I hate it with a passion. I think I'm quitting after the next class that starts tomorrow. It's just Continuing Ed. type classes.

But, I pitched doing a film photography class to them. I was going to donate a bunch of darkroom gear I had got for nothing off craigslist. I was going to provide 35mm cameras for anyone who needed them. I was going to do everything, and I had a ton of initial interest (I always get a ton of questions and interest when I'm out shooting in public, and many said they'd either like to shoot film again or try it for the first time in the case of younger folks). But the program coordinator would have nothing of it.

A friend, who is an excellent LF photographer and MFA holder, who knows most of the folks doing the best work in higher-ed, wants me to get an MFA so I could give a go to teaching photography at a university. Your post reminds me that I really do like teaching upper-level students! But I already have 3 degrees and a decent position so I probably won't be going back to school to switch career paths...

[Kirk Gittings]

Good comments. Corran, I don't know how old you are. IMHO, right now unless one is 21, an MFA doesn't make much sense. I did it when I was 28 (35 years ago). It made sense then and works for me now as it opens some academic doors, but if I did it now I could not recoup the costs before I croak.

[Corran]

I did it when I was 28.

I'll turn 28 in a couple of months actually :)
Yeah my #1 concern would be costs. I wouldn't do it ever if it wasn't at least 90% paid for. My Master's in Music was received without a penny spent, + a living stipend. Good times.

I've already had some doors closed to me because of my lack of a piece of paper. Or rather, a lack of one that says Fine Arts.

[Tin Can]

Brian,

You are still young, just get a damn MFA in anything as cheaply and easily as possible. A lot of schools only hire full time with MFA.

Unfortunately for me, I was mechanic foreman all my life and constantly taught technicians to operate fancy and very expensive materials testing equipment, but I was never a 'Teacher.'

Stupid me went to college as an old adult, starting at junior college and ending up with 2 MFA's. I was hoping to switch careers when I was made redundant. Sure enough, I was put to pasture at age 58, five years ago.

Nobody will hire me as a teacher in any field. My 30 years of high tech automotive top level manufacturing expertise and laboratory experience absolutely worthless. My 2 MFA's also useless.

I retired, way too early, and with way too little income. I will be OK.

But mainly, it seems a waste of experience that the young can never learn from me.

My fool darkroom may be the only good thing I can do.

Frustrated, to be old and in the way.



I teach digital photography classes. I hate it with a passion. I think I'm quitting after the next class that starts tomorrow. It's just Continuing Ed. type classes.

But, I pitched doing a film photography class to them. I was going to donate a bunch of darkroom gear I had got for nothing off craigslist. I was going to provide 35mm cameras for anyone who needed them. I was going to do everything, and I had a ton of initial interest (I always get a ton of questions and interest when I'm out shooting in public, and many said they'd either like to shoot film again or try it for the first time in the case of younger folks). But the program coordinator would have nothing of it.

A friend, who is an excellent LF photographer and MFA holder, who knows most of the folks doing the best work in higher-ed, wants me to get an MFA so I could give a go to teaching photography at a university. Your post reminds me that I really do like teaching upper-level students! But I already have 3 degrees and a decent position so I probably won't be going back to school to switch career paths...

[Tin Can]

'...a lack of one that says Fine Arts.'

Music is a Fine Art!

[Kirk Gittings]

I'll turn 28 in a couple of months actually :)
Yeah my #1 concern would be costs. I wouldn't do it ever if it wasn't at least 90% paid for. My Master's in Music was received without a penny spent, + a living stipend. Good times.

I've already had some doors closed to me because of my lack of a piece of paper. Or rather, a lack of one that says Fine Arts.

Yes mine cost me zip except effort and time. I had a complete full ride plus housing and a stipend plus teaching assistantships plus grants. It was like I died and went to heaven-but that was Canada in the early 80's-huge support for graduate education.

[jp]

Randy, I'm sure you could find an outlet for your calling to teach, but just wouldn't be paid well for it.

I am a college dropout and have taught public adult ed classes. in church environments, been on school boards hiring teachers and administrators, I think I might enjoy privately teaching drivers ed sometime, but I'm sure there's probably only minimal money in it.

[Tin Can]

I'm setting up a fairly large darkroom with 5 stations.

I'll start my own school. Plenty of students here. The next unit over in my building does outreach Video education for disadvantaged youth. http://www.ctvnetwork.org/ I could walk right in there, but the director and I agree to disagree.

I'm not the greatest photographer, but as they say, 'those that can't do, teach.'




Randy, I'm sure you could find an outlet for your calling to teach, but just wouldn't be paid well for it.

I am a college dropout and have taught public adult ed classes. in church environments, been on school boards hiring teachers and administrators, I think I might enjoy privately teaching drivers ed sometime, but I'm sure there's probably only minimal money in it.

[Corran]

Heh, Randy, of course Music is a Fine Art...

The Art Dept. Head where I already work refused one of his professors' suggestion that I teach an intro class that they have too many students wanting to take every semester. I have a Master's in Music but not FA so he said no, absolutely not. Didn't even care to look at my portfolio. The other professor vouched for me 100%. Whatever, his loss, they are losing money hand and fist turning away students. I'm qualified by the standards they adhere to for teaching since I have the upper degree though.

Regardless, this thread isn't about me. I'm still grappling with my own life, of course...

Kirk, I'm glad to hear this! I have always believed teaching is the best way to hone any skill. The more you teach, the more you gotta know and put into practice and articulate, so it's second-nature. I've had plenty of "ah-ha!" moments when working with young musicians, when something clicked in MY thought process when I was teaching them!

Randy, I'd love to see you have a community darkroom / teaching space! What a great opportunity. Wish I could setup something similar here, but venture capital and community enrichment is extremely low on the priority list in this town.

[Scott Davis]

There are ways around this problem - I'm doing a Randy, although at an already established facility similar to what he wants to build. Here in the DC 'burbs there's a photography center in a park run by the US Park Service, called Photoworks. This year is actually their 40th anniversary. But it's privately run, no academic credentials required, just passionate folks who want to share their knowledge and have decent experience to back it up. This is a case of those who can, do, and teach too.

[Brian Ellis]

I taught the Beginning Photography course at a university for a year. I didn't find any strong preference among the students for film vs digital. Some liked and pursued one, some liked and pursued the other. I don't know why someone can't praise film or their film experience without also dumping on "digital" (whatever that's supposed to mean but to many here it seems to be synonymous with "push a button and the print comes out") but judging from many posts here it seems impossible to do, few people seem able to express their like for film without criticizing "digital" (seldom the other way around).

Which might be tolerable if it weren't for the massive over-generalizations made about "digital," e.g. "when we had a darkroom, students' prints were the worst I've seen in forty years. Why? Because they could not imagine spending as little time making a print as the digital camera students did." I don't fully understand the statement, it seems contradictory, but at a minimum it's saying that making a digital print takes little time which is a ridiculous over-generalization IMHO (and I spent about 15 years off and on working in my darkroom and I've spent now about 13 years printing digitally so I have a pretty good basis for comparing the two). Some prints take more one way, some take more another. But I've made many prints that required more time to achieve the results I wanted working digitally than I ever spent working on a print in a darkroom (and my usual output printing in my darkroom was one possibly two hopefully "final" prints in 3-6 hours).

[Kirk Gittings]

All very true Brian. But I think the pure analogue guys feel like the bastard stepchild these days and constantly have their back up. I actually spend more time making an exhibition quality ink print than I ever do on silver. I take about a week for each print.

To be balanced-on the first day of class I made a point of not being a zealot for any method. I showed from my portfolio silver prints from negs, silver prints from digital capture, ink prints from scanned film and ink prints from digital capture with some images from as many as three of these. The consensus was that they all looked great-but different. I then went into what I considered the strengths of each methodology.

[Tin Can]

Interesting Kirk, that you let the students decide, or at least expose them to all variation. They have already seen so many images in their young lives, they have plenty of visual experience. And the worst critique they often utter, is 'meh.'

I do both digital and wet work and I agree both are different and both take plenty of time. Instant success or instant Fine Art was Andy Warhol and even he took lots of snaps to get what he wanted.

I might add there is a thrill to waiting and watching a digital print emerge from void, just as one emerges from developer.

Digital prints have been continuously improving, even Costco.

One of my best images is a D700 group shot of 24 videomakers. I needed a reprint to replace a damaged one. Both Costco, 5 years apart, big difference in the 20x30 new print, subtle but many comments on it.

[Jac@stafford.net]

The Art Dept. Head where I already work refused one of his professors' suggestion that I teach an intro class that they have too many students wanting to take every semester. I have a Master's in Music but not FA so he said no, absolutely not. Didn't even care to look at my portfolio.

There may be a solution. Our university had a department dedicated to continuing education intended to attract students, all adults, some well into middle and later years. Courses were recorded, but no credits given. It was largely funded by State grants and fees. It has been going strong for almost twenty years. They paid me $50 a clock-hour. Two 2-hour night classes twice a week nicely supplemented my film habit. (but there are uncounted hours of class preparation)

Teach the teachers.

[Corran]

Thanks Jac. Yes I mentioned that in my first post - I do teach Cont. Ed. classes. One starts tonight. The program coordinator...well she leaves a bit to be desired in terms of organization and management.

However, I think I'm going to stop doing it for various reasons, not least of which is my pay being $15/hour. They only charge a bit more than that per student, and the classes aren't well attended. But that goes back to the organization/management issues...which is a whole thread unto itself, if I were to get into it.

Actually the Cont. Ed. Dept. might be getting axed completely due to poor performance, according to the scuttlebutt...

[jp]

I might add there is a thrill to waiting and watching a digital print emerge from void, just as one emerges from developer.


I'd say my thrill with watching a quality digital color print emerge for the first time was more memorable than B&W darkroom. In the early 90's, I attended a demonstration of the iris printer by someone from Nash Editions at the Kodak Center for Creative Imaging in Camden ME. To see a nice image spun magically onto a nice piece of paper was very memorable. In contrast, my first darkroom experience a couple years earlier was printing a high school acquaintances crappy snapshots in the grimy school darkroom. It was more "Oh good, got that one done, lets keep moving". Now I like both digital and analog just fine.

[Drew Wiley]

The University here still teaches film in the Fine Arts Dept (whatever the hell that means)... but the big vacuum is in the commercial art schools which enroll a much larger number of aspiring photographers and graphic artists, and teach only digital nowadays. I hear constant complaints about it from the students themselves, who are looking to learn film and traditional darkroom on the side. In this area pure digital equates to a helluva lot of competition. Some of the community colleges still have small RA4 machines in place. And it will be interesting to see if the main photo store in town expands its rental darkroom space when it relocates for growth this summer. But there's quite a difference between teaching basic black and white and dealing with nasty color chemistry, which might not be so appropriate for beginners.

[Vaughn]

Its been years, maybe 12 or more, since I taught a beginning university level film class. I completely forgot about the thrill that kids get when they see their first negatives that they created with their own hands. Their enthusiasm has been a huge high for me as well. There is simply no equivalent high for students when I teach a digital class. Long live film-now an alternative process to most kids.

As the university's darkroom tech for 20+ years (and volunteering as a darkroom assistant for 10+ years before that in the same darkroom), it has been a constant joy to watch. Though I do admit that early in the semester, a lot of the students crossing the hallway to my office are holding wet uncut 36 exp film with major problems. Much of my work is playing detective..."What could have and what did go wrong here...? " And some "To the rescue!" type stuff, too. And even though I do not teach classes, I have opportunities to teach a little to students.

Vaughn

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Helping someone else learn is the greatest feeling...

[Jess C]

For 34 years film based photography is all I taught. It was always a joy to see the reaction my students got when they developed their first roll of black and white film. I was a greater joy when they reacted to the "magic" of the image appearing in the Dektol under the soft warm glow of the darkroom safelights. I will miss that experience and the interaction of the students.

I held on to the darkroom when all of the other high schools in my district closed down their labs and went digital. I just retired this year but the writing on the wall for the darkroom lab has been written I'm afraid. One more year at best is what I figure at my school. Here is a link to a news video our local ABC News affiliate did a couple months ago.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_southeast_valley/mesa/Mesa-high-school-teacher-Jesse-Castellano-to-retire-after-34-years

[Drew Wiley]

Hopefully community colleges will take up some of the slack. Many of them offer electives to non-students in the evening etc. I work with several in setting up shop
courses, for example. But I'm beginning to wonder what a college degree amounts to any more. I know phD's in electrical engineering who don't even know how to use a soldering iron. Everything is so techie nowadays. A honest car mechanic is far more in demand than a programmer. I know of US mfg startups who are failing simply because they can't find competent machine shop help. Every corn-syrup-fed kid thinks they're going to become Mark Zuckerberg if they just sit on their ass
long enough and buy the latest computer games. Alas - the "jobs of tomorrow" are already massively outsourced to become the jobs of yesterday. I'm sooo glad that where I grew up we didn't even have phones or TV yet. I run into young people (and older ones - including techie engineers) all the time who wish they could learn basic b&w darkroom - but I don't have teaching space, and my gear is way to fancy and fussy to risk it getting messed up. The whole mentality of this
is disgusting. Plenty of people still ride horses. At least Henry Ford didn't go around shooting them all once the Model T was marketed - but that's what the consumer electronics industry would like people to believe in this case. Darkroom gear is more affordable than ever... but maybe not the spare room to put it in.

[Tin Can]

This has been going on since I was in HS and I graduated HS in 1969. I was not allowed to take the shop, art, drama classes I wanted, I was deemed advance placement college meat. I dropped out of college almost before I started. Too damn slow and regimented and they wanted me to repeat HS classes I already had taken, despite testing into 3d year of college.

I became a self trained mechanic and worked automotive test labs all my life, then 'they' decided, they didn't need people who could actually make things work. Bean counters.

Thank God, I can now retire and work with my wet hands in the darkroom I always wanted.

We need another Sputnik wake up call.





Hopefully community colleges will take up some of the slack. Many of them offer electives to non-students in the evening etc. I work with several in setting up shop
courses, for example. But I'm beginning to wonder what a college degree amounts to any more. I know phD's in electrical engineering who don't even know how to use a soldering iron. Everything is so techie nowadays. A honest car mechanic is far more in demand than a programmer. I know of US mfg startups who are failing simply because they can't find competent machine shop help. Every corn-syrup-fed kid thinks they're going to become Mark Zuckerberg if they just sit on their ass
long enough and buy the latest computer games. Alas - the "jobs of tomorrow" are already massively outsourced to become the jobs of yesterday. I'm sooo glad that where I grew up we didn't even have phones or TV yet. I run into young people (and older ones - including techie engineers) all the time who wish they could learn basic b&w darkroom - but I don't have teaching space, and my gear is way to fancy and fussy to risk it getting messed up. The whole mentality of this
is disgusting. Plenty of people still ride horses. At least Henry Ford didn't go around shooting them all once the Model T was marketed - but that's what the consumer electronics industry would like people to believe in this case. Darkroom gear is more affordable than ever... but maybe not the spare room to put it in.

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh that sounds familiar Randy. I was done by all my high school curriculum by the time I was fourteen or fifteen, and they wouldn't allow me either to graduate or
take shop classes - that was for the dummies. I was expected to read Sophocles. Had fun anyway - spent most of the time running cross-country, and since the
school was a long, long ways from any city, that meant climbing the hills, swimming in the creek, hunting arrowheads, and legitimately being everywhere except class
until you had to catch the schoolbus home. ... then more hills and fun until dark. The school had a popular darkroom ... but that was more for, well, unmentionable
things that naughty kids did.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh... and college, well I finished.... but most of the time I was doing independent study anyway. Seems I've always learned more on my own.

[Tin Can]

Yes, I spent as much time outside, preferably in deep woods, ice skating on lakes and building rafts. We were not military, but we moved nearly every year with a new school, new bullies and new teaching 'methods.' Shop class for dummies was told to me also! Applied physics...

I can be adaptable, when I choose...

I think our young need more outside. Fortunately my step-daughter camps and climbs with her 2 teenage boys and she married a guy like me. Something's working.


Gosh that sounds familiar Randy. I was done by all my high school curriculum by the time I was fourteen or fifteen, and they wouldn't allow me either to graduate or
take shop classes - that was for the dummies. I was expected to read Sophocles. Had fun anyway - spent most of the time running cross-country, and since the
school was a long, long ways from any city, that meant climbing the hills, swimming in the creek, hunting arrowheads, and legitimately being everywhere except class
until you had to catch the schoolbus home. ... then more hills and fun until dark. The school had a popular darkroom ... but that was more for, well, unmentionable
things that naughty kids did.

[pierre506]

Dear Kirk， you started a heavy topic.
However， it's the cruel reality.
Hugh...

[ROL]

I'm too old and dumb to teach anything :(. That's why I pontificate here :).

[Drew Wiley]

You've got a lot to teach, ROL - you've obviously spent a lot of time taking in the light and translating that into beautiful images - and that's just as important as
the craft aspect of all this. And who would ever want to give up all those wonderful days in the high country - what some of us look forward to year after year.
Well ... I'm being nostalgaic ... I don't have a serious break until Sept and am scheming where to backpack. But off Pt Reyes tomorrow, where I always have an
excuse to tote the 8x10.