Searching for a camera with geared adjustments

[Saramarisu]

Hey guys,

please let me introduce myself, I'm Sarah from Germany, young and innocent :rolleyes: , and new to view cameras. I have to learn a lot, as it seems to be a whole different world stepping up from small digital cameras. So please be lenient with me. :)

As I wrote in the title I'm searching for a camera with geared adjustments, not only for focusing, but also for rise and fall (and tilt and swing, it is has it). The camera should be used in a project I'm planning, and it need not to be 'mobile' (so a high weight is not a problem). The higher the precision, all the better for me, but I have to keep the costs in sight. 4x5inch would be nice, but I really don't need more than 6x9cm at the moment. It should have a wide angle bellow.
For me it is hard to find and score cameras, I hope you can help me? What I found up to now is the Sinar P2 (with a reasonable price), the Rollei X-Act 2 (seems to be more expansive, has it a higher precision?), Linhof M679 and Arca Metric, both even used with a very high price.

Perhaps you have some more cameras I should write on my list? Or do you have more information how to judge the precision?

Thank you, best wishes,
Sarah :)

[Tin Can]

It's late at night here in Chicago, I am sure you will get plenty of advice in the morning. Are you in Germany or from Germany?

Location will somewhat determine what you can get.

There are plenty of geared cameras available, even very old wood cameras had gearing.

Used Sinar and Horseman are both great and prices seem to be in free fall.

Good luck!

[jumanji]

Sarah, there are at least two more info to add:
- Your budget
- Which type do you prefer: Folding or monorail?
I also strongly recommend you to use the Search engine on top of the page. There are a few threads discussed about Beginners' camera.

[Saramarisu]

Thank you two for your fast answers. I am from Germany and currently in Germany, but I have no problem to buy worldwide if there's a good deal anywhere. To the question, you are right, I gave you not enough information. My fault, sorry. I do not search for a beginners camera to start doing normal large format photography. I have an idea for a video project in mind and need a base to make this real. Therefore, I need a camera which enables me to manipulate every adjustment as precise as possible and has the possibility to work with small focal lengths. Weight and size is not an issue, so I believe a monorail is the better choice for me. My budget, well, let's start with about 1.000 €. I've seen a Sinar P2 and a Rollei X-act within this range, are there more? And if there are cameras much better, but more expensive, I will have to think about more time to wait and save more money.

Best wishes,
Sarah :)

[Otto Seaman]

The smaller cameras like the Rollei X-Act and Linhof M679 have finer, more precise gearing since they are designed for smaller sensors and lenses. The older 4x5 cameras like the Sinar P are excellent for large film but not as finely geared for more precise work with smaller sensors.

There is a saying in English, "You get what you pay for".

All the cameras you would consider are monorails. It would be good to know the focal lengths of the lenses you plan to work with, as with shorter lenses the standards and bellows will be compressed closer together and some cameras will operate better than others in these conditions.

[Lachlan 717]

Horseman L series 4x5.

[Jac@stafford.net]

It is interesting that you need geared swings, tilts and shift.
It seems to suggest that you will be running the video as adjustments are being made.
Am I correct?

We have a couple veteran cine photographers and technicians here to help.

[Jim Andrada]

As well as a few audio/video guys who are also active on dvinfo, which is also an excellent forum, by he way.

[Mark Woods]

Hello Sarah, there are lenses with swing and shift made specifically for film & video. Here's a link:

http://www.schneideroptics.com/century/broadcast/SwingShift/SwingShift.htm

There are also tilt lenses that can do similar effects. Good luck.

[Saramarisu]

Thank you for your answers, but they are leading in the wrong direction. I know there is specialised equipment for video, but that's not what I'm searching for. I'm searching for a monorail camera for at least up to 6x9cm with geared adjustments (focus, shift and, if it has tilt, tilt) and need an overview about the market (which seems for me impossible to find by myself) and a comparison of the precision of the different cameras. :)


There is a saying in English, "You get what you pay for".

All the cameras you would consider are monorails. It would be good to know the focal lengths of the lenses you plan to work with, as with shorter lenses the standards and bellows will be compressed closer together and some cameras will operate better than others in these conditions.
I know that saying, and I don't want the best for a few pennys. My problem is to find out what I exactly get for what price, if there is really a higher precision on camera a against camera b, or if the higher price is the result of a lightweight materials (which is not necessary for me), or other features I do not need. You understand what I mean?
For the focal lengths, it will be really short (in fact as short as possible). But if the bellow is changeable, I might build one especially for my situation (well, in fact ask a friend to do so ;) ). So the main point is, how near do both standards get together.



Horseman L series 4x5.
Thank you, I will take a look. Do you have any idea how it does compare to the Sinar P2 or Rollei X-Act?


It is interesting that you need geared swings, tilts and shift.
It seems to suggest that you will be running the video as adjustments are being made.
Am I correct?
Yes an no, because I do not want to take a video with a videocamera, but doing it with stop motion. So the adjustments should be seen in the video, but I'm not doing them while filming.

Best wishes,
Sarah :)

[Ari]

Have a look at the Toyo VX23-D.
http://www.toyoview.com/Products/VX23D/23D.html

[Mark Woods]

Stop motion! Got it. Are you shooting off the ground glass? I have a Sinar P that has much of what you wish for. You can add measuring tapes with witness marks at a relative small expense.

[Tin Can]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/digital-view.shtml

[Tin Can]

This is the best there is.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linhof-M679-/370846941805?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item565833426d

[Ed Bray]

Sarah,

Have a look for a Horseman 4x5 LX or LE, these can be commonly bought in great condition for about 300 Euros, add another 50 Euros or so far a Bag bellows.

If you get really desperate I will sell you my Horseman 4x5 LX outfit as I don't use it anymore but kept it as I would only want it to go to a good home.

[Saramarisu]

Thank you guys for your answers. I have now much more cameras on my list, and I have to inform myself about their capabilities. As far as I see there are two general groups of cameras that might fit for me. On the one hand there are classic 4x5 studio cameras like the Sinar P2 or the Horseman LX, which offer geared movements at a very reasonable price, but lack the precision offered by todays cameras. On the other hand there are modern cameras for digital backs, partly also for rollfilm, which have much finer adjustments but also a much higher pricetag, like the Linhof M679, Toyo VX23 or Rollei X-act. The differences within these two groups aren't that large, I suppose, but between both groups they are relevant?

I'm sorry for my questions, but it is really hard to find information about the precision of geared movements, especially in comparison.


Stop motion! Got it. Are you shooting off the ground glass?
I don't know if I understand you correctly, but I never thought about shooting off the ground glass. My main intention is to combine digital and analog material for the film in different styles, for example two different crops through one lens (thats why I need precise geared shift). The idea is, of course, much more complex, and I know that I will have to build a lot of things by myself (or by friends, who help me a lot! :) ). Therefore I'm searching for such a camera, as a base to be modified for my needs.

Best wishes
Sarah

[evan clarke]

Arca F-metric 6x9 with Orbix..is the best there is...

[Bob Salomon]

Arca F-metric 6x9 with Orbix..is the best there is...

Next to the M679cs and Techno.

There is no "best there is"

But there are several very good cameras. The best will depend on what works best for the specific user.

[rdenney]

How short are the lenses you want to use? The Sinar P will go down to 47mm with still some room for movements, if you use the Wide Angle Bellows 2, and don't use a metering back.

But the dedicated 6x9 cameras are the better choice here, both for support of short focal lengths and for the precision of the movements. Remember, the shorter the lens, the less movement you need for any particular effect, particularly with regard to tilts and swings. That means getting the effect right means making finer adjustments. Many have used geared 4x5 cameras with smaller formats, but they are generally harder to use with the short lenses one might couple to those smaller formats.

The Linhof M679 is an example of a 6x9 view camera with high levels of precision well-suited to very short lenses (shorter than 47mm). The other high-end 6x9 view cameras likewise, though each has their own flavor. Arca made one, for example, as did one or two of the Japanese brands. These are not cheap, because they are still useful for commercial digital studio work, so they are not being dumped on the market the way 4x5 and larger cameras are. So, if you are on a budget and 47mm is short enough, the Sinar P may be a cheaper alternative than others, and it might be good enough, but it won't necessarily be optimal.

Rick "who has used a 47mm lens successfully even on a Sinar F, but it's fiddly" Denney

[pasiasty]

If I remember, Mentor Atelier (or Studio, it's quite hard to find any reliable information on it; 13x18, DDR-made - not earlier Reflex version) has some movements (front swing?) geared. But it's usually bought rather because of its focal plane shutter than its movements. It's folding but heavy as hell.

[pasiasty]

Also Cambo Ultima Series (can be even bought new, in Germany, but of course not within your budget).

[Bob Salomon]

How short are the lenses you want to use? The Sinar P will go down to 47mm with still some room for movements, if you use the Wide Angle Bellows 2, and don't use a metering back.

But the dedicated 6x9 cameras are the better choice here, both for support of short focal lengths and for the precision of the movements. Remember, the shorter the lens, the less movement you need for any particular effect, particularly with regard to tilts and swings. That means getting the effect right means making finer adjustments. Many have used geared 4x5 cameras with smaller formats, but they are generally harder to use with the short lenses one might couple to those smaller formats.

The Linhof M679 is an example of a 6x9 view camera with high levels of precision well-suited to very short lenses (shorter than 47mm). The other high-end 6x9 view cameras likewise, though each has their own flavor. Arca made one, for example, as did one or two of the Japanese brands. These are not cheap, because they are still useful for commercial digital studio work, so they are not being dumped on the market the way 4x5 and larger cameras are. So, if you are on a budget and 47mm is short enough, the Sinar P may be a cheaper alternative than others, and it might be good enough, but it won't necessarily be optimal.

Rick "who has used a 47mm lens successfully even on a Sinar F, but it's fiddly" Denney

Rick,

You really hit the nail on the head with short lenses. With digital backs lenses are available, and quite commonly used, from 23mm up! Getting most cameras to accept, much less use, 23mm 24mm, 28mm 35mm 38mm, 45mm, 47mm lenses is not easy. And digital backs use for a normal lens focal lengths as short as 50mm (depending on format) and even those are not easy to use on a 45 view camera and still do movements.

On the other hand a digital view camera like the Techno takes that 23mm lens on a flat board! Although a 24mm requires a triple recessed board! Besides the capability of the cameras you also have to see what the flange focal lengths of these shorter lenses are to determine how and if they will work on the camera of choice!

[Otto Seaman]

What has always struck me is that if I were to spend a lot of money on a new technical camera from one of the respected manufacturers like Alpa, Silvestri, Cambo, Linhof, Arca, Sinar, etc. is there is a real dearth of information about them online or readily available. At least on this forum or in the USA we have Bob Salomon that we can email or call for details on the Linhof line, but trying to find out anything about an Arca is practically impossible. The manufacturers' degree of web-savviness is pathetic. So all things considered, I'd probably tend towards the camera system that was best supported and had parts available, i.e. Linhof.

[Tin Can]

Yes, gearing info would be nice. I don't know how it is measured, but teeth per inch TPI info would be nice to know. Types of gears, are they zero lash, worm drive, made of what? How do the friction controls works, do they lock solid and how.

These newer geared camera bodies are machines, not wood boxes, where are the cutaway drawings?

Simply giving us range of motion is really not enough.

Many of us don't even have a way to touch these steampunk wonders, yet many of us desire them. Especially the OP!

I'm a mechanic, I love gears...



What has always struck me is that if I were to spend a lot of money on a new technical camera from one of the respected manufacturers like Alpa, Silvestri, Cambo, Linhof, Arca, Sinar, etc. is there is a real dearth of information about them online or readily available. At least on this forum or in the USA we have Bob Salomon that we can email or call for details on the Linhof line, but trying to find out anything about an Arca is practically impossible. The manufacturers' degree of web-savviness is pathetic. So all things considered, I'd probably tend towards the camera system that was best supported and had parts available, i.e. Linhof.

[Richard Hofacker]

H, Sarah - Since you're in Germany ai presume you can handle the lingo. I suggest yoy look into the Plaubel Profia PL69D, their newest monorail (2012, I think. Plaubel is notorious for using only German in their spec sheets, so here they are: 6x9 cm,Optische Bank Kamera, ohne Digital Adaptor und ohne Objektivplatte, L-Standarten, Feintriebe, Zentral-u. Basisverstellung, Null-Rastung,, Skalen. Their price at the factory in Frankfurt is 4,150 E, but there's always a chance it can be cut down for a research project -- or maybe even rented. You didn't mention a need for digital, but if you do, the Plaubel PL69D Digital Adapter is priced at 1,420 E, and may need additional adapter plates depending on your setup. Plaubel's phone number in Frankfurt a/Main is 06109-31018, and their business hours, Monday - Thursday, are 0900-1200 and 1300--1600, and Friday 0900 - 1500. Ich wünsche dir viel Glück aus Colorado, USA

[AtlantaTerry]

Sarah,

If I read everything in this thread correctly, you want to attach stepper motors to the gears of an already existing camera platform in order to use short focal length lenses to create innovative videos.

Right?

You should do a bit of research into what we in the film industry call "motion control" camera systems. This equipment is far out of your budget but the goals are the same: to precisely control what the film/sensor sees in an accurately repeatable manner. Your research into this area might give you some ideas to use for your project.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ti-86&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=da6bUrrwL9bioASxroCoAg&sqi=2&ved=0CD0QsAQ&biw=1061&bih=755#hl=en&q=motion+control+camera+rig&tbm=isch

The problem is that most of the helpful tips here are coming from people with good intentions who are thinking like LF camera photographers, not filmmakers. They are trying to shoehorn their prejudices and preferences into your needs. That is not bad, just human nature. The problem is that I suspect the cameras suggested so far likely will not work properly for your project.

Now that I have made a lot of people around the world mad at me, let me suggest the Cambo X2-Pro for a couple reasons:

1. micrometer adjustments are an integral part of the design of the camera (replace the micrometers with stepper motors or otherwise connect steppers to the micrometers)

2. the X2 is designed to use interchangable short focal length lenses

3. a bag bellows and not a "normal" design bellows is part of the design

4. the X2 presumes a digital back or DSLR camera body will be attached so you could send out a high definition video signal from one of those or attach another kind of video pickup that your project requires

http://www.cambo.com/html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/item752.html



Terry Thomas
Director of Photography
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1669504/board/thread/100119963