PDA

View Full Version : macro lens recommendation 4x5



stradibarrius
4-Jul-2013, 06:46
I would like some help selecting a macro lens for a 4x5. Currently have 90mm, 150mm, 180mm, 250mm and 300mm. I am using a Sinar F2 if that makes any difference.

IanG
4-Jul-2013, 07:01
Well Scheider used to sell Componon lenses as Macro lenses, I'd use one of mine in a Compur shutter if I needed to do macro work.

Ian

Bob Salomon
4-Jul-2013, 07:09
Will you use it to shoot stamps? or close ups of things? At what ratio?

Walter Calahan
4-Jul-2013, 07:28
I use a Nikon Macro 120mm f/5.6 Nikkor-AM(ED) Lens with Copal #0 Shutter

stradibarrius
4-Jul-2013, 07:56
Are lenses that are called "macro" lens limited or can the be used at any distance?

Peter De Smidt
4-Jul-2013, 08:06
They are optimized for a specific magnification range. That doesn't mean that they won't give good results in other cases. After all, a lot of pre press lenses, e.g. dagors, g-clarons, artars, have good reputations for general field use, although they were made for close-ups. Bob's right, though. To give the best advice, we need to know what size objects you want to photograph.

Bob Salomon
4-Jul-2013, 08:06
Are lenses that are called "macro" lens limited or can the be used at any distance?

All lenses are optimized for specific ratios and aperture. You can use a macro at infinity and you can use a non macro at 1:1 but the image quality when you do this, across the entire field, will be inferior to using the lens designed for the type of work that you will be doing. So yes, you can use a macro at infinity but it will not perform as well as other lens types at infinity down to about 1:10 or 1:20 - depending on the lens.

stradibarrius
4-Jul-2013, 17:12
Say I wanted to photograph a coin...

Bob Salomon
4-Jul-2013, 17:21
Say I wanted to photograph a coin...

Just the face or are the markings on the edges also important?

Just the face a lens like an Apo Ronar at f22 would work. If more then the face then a true macro like an Apo Macro Sironar.

You want the coin to fill the frame or be life size?

Fill the frame then the Apo Macro Sironar over the Apo Ronar. But your camera's bellows will become a factor.

Leigh
4-Jul-2013, 17:42
I use the Rodenstock Apo-Makro-Sironar 180/5.6.

It's a superb lens, even at infinity.

- Leigh

ridax
5-Jul-2013, 02:58
For taking a picture three or more times bigger then life size, if only the coin isn't larger then 43mm in diameter, a mundane small format enlarging lens mounted with its back facing the coin, would beat any longer focus Apo-Macro-Superstar hands down. But arranging proper illumination can be a real problem with just two inches between the lens and the coin...

Leigh
5-Jul-2013, 03:35
It's difficult to envision any requirement for an image on film larger than life size.

If you want a final image (print) larger than life, use an enlarger or a scanner.

- Leigh

polyglot
5-Jul-2013, 04:22
It's difficult to envision any requirement for an image on film larger than life size.

Seriously, wtf? I can think of plenty of reasons. We don't need microscopes then, eh? No wonderment in the natural world?

As to the OP's question, I would also suggest an enlarger lens reversed for over-unity magnification. They're designed for about 6x magnification and will happily reproduce a 1" item onto 4x5" film. DOF (the lack of) is going to send you insane though.

Longer enlarging lenses will have more working room, but require commensurately more bellows. Shorter lenses will only work at higher magnifications, i.e. where the subject area is no larger than the film that that lens was designed to enlarge.

An enlarging lens should be usable with a "hat shutter" (bit of black cardboard), especially if you're doing flash illuminations.

Peter De Smidt
5-Jul-2013, 04:35
I agree that the easiest thing would be to use a reversed enlarging lens, but as Polyglot suggested, depth of field will be tiny. That said, I know an accomplished coin photographer. For images at 1:1 and below, he doesn't focus stack, and that's with digital. Thus, with 4x5 it should be possible to get a good image with careful focusing. Lighting will be crucial. I use two Jansco LED lights. At magnifications above 1:1, the lack of depth of field will be very hard to work with.

Leigh
5-Jul-2013, 05:27
At magnifications above 1:1, the lack of depth of field will be very hard to work with.
That's one of the many reasons for limiting the size of the image on the negative, and using enlargement techniques
to create the final image.

- Leigh

LF_rookie_to_be
5-Jul-2013, 05:42
For ratios above 1:1 I use a Schneider M-Componon 80/4, which was given to me by a digital convert. But post #11 really tells you all, illumination may be a really tricky part. Especially if you want or perhaps need to have it on colour transparency.

Dan Fromm
5-Jul-2013, 06:13
Barry, who usually has to be tortured into giving enough information about what he wants to accomplish when he asks a seemingly artless naive question, let fall that he might want to photograph coins on 4x5 film.

OK, fine, wonderful. I don't normally recommend the place, but this situation is different. Barry, wander over to http://www.mflenses.com/ and look up Ray Parkhurst, who posts in that sites' manual focus lenses forum. He's an excellent coin photographer, knows what he's doing and is well acquainted with lenses that might do for you. Why ask people who aren't good at what you want to do for advice?

Peter De Smidt
5-Jul-2013, 08:47
Ray has some great posts on lighting techniques with coins. Google should find them.

Btw., Ray recently tested my Mitutoyo M Plan 2x APO. His tests use dslrs. Using film will be quite different.

Bernice Loui
5-Jul-2013, 09:48
M-Componon is basically a Componon reverse mounted in a shutter. Easier and less expensive to get a normal Componon and reverse mount it. Over the years of doing this images over 1x on film, reverse enlarger lenses work really, really well.

Fiber optic ring light is common on stereo microscopes which are in this same magnification range. Using a fiber optic ring light or other fiber optic lighting system, the amount of light that can be put in a small area is very high.

In the 1x to 5x range using a LF camera is not ideal, better to use a copy camera or move on to a more specialty microscope with a 4x5 film back designed for this kind of work. There are 1x microscope objectives, but these are usually special. At 5x, they are more common and they can be had with fluorite and APO with large numeric apertures.

DOF imaging a coin should not be too much of a problem due to the coin being flat enough. As long as the magnification is not too high, say 1x to not more than 3x DOF should be OK.

If DOF is an issue, layering images should significantly improve the image results. Stopping down in an effort to gain DOF is counter productive as the resolution will drop off due to diffraction. Another way is to use monochromatic light (single color) instead of white light.


Bernice


For ratios above 1:1 I use a Schneider M-Componon 80/4, which was given to me by a digital convert. But post #11 really tells you all, illumination may be a really tricky part. Especially if you want or perhaps need to have it on colour transparency.

VPooler
5-Jul-2013, 10:05
How about some copy camera lenses i.e. Tominons? They perform quite well on high magnifications and you could probably pick one off craigslist or similar for pretty much nothing.

Dan Fromm
5-Jul-2013, 10:20
How about some copy camera lenses i.e. Tominons? They perform quite well on high magnifications and you could probably pick one off craigslist or similar for pretty much nothing.

Vallo, there are better lenses. The shorter the MP-4 Tominon, the better. I wouldn't use a 75 (n = 3) and the 135 is dreadful (n = 3). Sorry, never had a 105.

MP-4 Tominons' recommended magnifications, from MP-4 documentation
focal length (min magnification to cover 4x5) recommended magnifications type

135 mm 1x - 3x Tessar
105 mm 1x - 4x Tessar
75 mm (2x) 2x - 6.5x reversed Tessar
50 mm (2x) 2x - 9.8x 6 group symmetric triplet (sic)
35 mm (5x) 5x - 14x reversed Tessar
17 mm (10x) 10x - 32x 6 element 4 group

From 2:1 to at least 5:1 there's little that will beat a reversed 55 Micro Nikkor. My 55/2.8 is best at f/4, visibly loses central image quality at f/2.8 and f/5.6. In discussions of 55 MicroNikkors on the French LF forum, one poster said he'd tested an f/3.5er against and f/2.8er and that the f/3.5er (sorry, don't know which vintage or which aperture(s) he tested at) and found the f/3.5er better.

But since Barry the vague hasn't told us enough about what he's trying to accomplish its hard to tell whether any of the advice he's been given (except mine, to look up Ray Parkhurst if he's going to shoot coins).

Barry, here's another piece of advice. Before you go shopping for anything, buy a copy of Lester Lefkowitz' book The Manual of Closeup Photography and, if you're going to work above 1:1, a copy of Brian Bracegirdle's book Scientific Photomacrography. Both cover the same ground, the repetition will be good for you. Bracegirdle's discussion of which lenses is strongly biased towards lenses from microscope manufacturers and microscope divisions of merchant lens makers such as Nikon and Zeiss.

Peter, macro is macro regardless of how the image is captured. Its been a while since Ray and I have communicated, but I believe he's used film. He really does understand what he's doing and Barry should find what he knows about lighting very useful. In real life Barry is a sort of cabinet maker and his products are, like coins, quite reflective.

VPooler
5-Jul-2013, 10:42
Just sayin', if our OP just wants to fiddle around with small things then some cheap copy lenses are quite a viable option - if he gets bored, he is not out big buck. But I agree the Tominons are far from perfect, although I particulary like them.

pierre506
5-Jul-2013, 15:58
Please try the classic & rare macro Nikon lenses, such as ultra-micro Nikkor, Printing Nikkor,or macro Nikkor for Nikon Multiphot.
You will get the stunning results.

Dan Fromm
5-Jul-2013, 16:23
Please try the classic & rare macro Nikon lenses, such as ultra-micro Nikkor, Printing Nikkor,or macro Nikkor for Nikon Multiphot.
You will get the stunning results.

I'm sure the OP would be happy to have such lenses, doubt he can afford any of them. Why don't you give one to him as a gift?

pierre506
5-Jul-2013, 16:31
I'm sure the OP would be happy to have such lenses, doubt he can afford any of them. Why don't you give one to him as a gift?

Dear Dan,
Good idea.
I will be considering about to lend a 65mm f4.5 Macro Nikkor lens to OP if he is a serious and good macro photographer.
Best wishes,
pierre

JohnJ
6-Jul-2013, 14:54
Stradibarrius, the link below has some excellent lens tests by Mark Goodman. They are for various types of lenses, many of which may be useful to you, but they are performed relatively consistently so comparisons are possible. They are coincidentally related to coin photography but are none the less the best lens tests of their kind, IMHO.

http://coinimaging.com/Lens_tests.html

You could find more macro related info and help at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/index.php which is not specifically relevant to large format but the macro knowledge there is excellent.

Peter De Smidt
6-Jul-2013, 19:44
Peter, macro is macro regardless of how the image is captured.

Well, sure. Except that a sensor is perfectly flat, whereas film is unlikely to be so. Digital allows easy focus stacking, whereas that's not so simple with film. The short of it is that with film using a smaller aperture than is ideal with digital might be useful, but the tests that Ray does are aimed at max quality with digital, sometimes at F4 on the lens, for instance. That's unlikely to be a useful lens aperture for 4x5 film. And once you start stopping down, diffraction will quickly start to minimize differences between lenses. Finally, the lenses Ray looks at currently generally don't cover much more than FX. Ray's favorite lens at 1:1 is a Printing Nikkor. I doubt that it covers 4x5.

All that said, I agree that if one want's to photograph coins, contacting Ray is a good idea.

Tom Monego
7-Jul-2013, 14:04
The 120 f5.6 Macro Nikon AM/ED also falls into this category. Nikon support felt it was better in the 1:1 TO 5:1 mag range than the older 120 Macro Nikkors, similar design but was in a shutter and the coating was better, plus in the 1980's I could buy a new one. This is a very sharp lens, will cover 4x5 with some movements at f22, but will not cover 4x5 at infinity. I did micro- surgical instrument photos for 4 medical textbooks with this lens.
But even a 120mm lens will be very close to the subject in the magnification range the OP wants, this will make optimal lighting difficult. Macro photography with a 4x5 requires an extremely steady base, especially if you are doing vertical alignment.

Tom

Professional
8-Jul-2013, 22:08
Thanks for this thread, i hope it will help me to decide on which macro lens to buy for my LF, i am planning to get 2-3 lenses, i am happy i have 2 so far, definitely one of those 2-3 glasses will be a macro lens.