Pros & Cons of Toyo 810M....

[Ari]

...in reference to the Kodak Master 8x10.

I currently use and love the KMV 810; while not perfect, it is almost perfect, at least for me.

Relatively light, lots of movements, ample extension, and very sturdy.

And it's easy to fix; I bought one in rough shape, but have since worked it into a much more precise (and prettier) camera.

Drawbacks include age (in relation to condition, not age per se), unavailability/high price of lens boards, few precision movements.

Three of my past 4x5s have been Toyos, and I have a healthy admiration for the G-series; they are very well-built, if somewhat, um, corpulent.

Can anyone fill me in as to the quirks, pros and cons of working with a Toyo 810M?

I'll be considering a switch later on, but I'd like to be a little better informed as to the trade-offs.

I shoot portraits and architecture.

Thanks in advance.

[EOTS]

Hi,

I have a Toyo 45AII, Arca Swiss F-Metric 4x5 and a Toyo 810M ...
I don't know millions of other camera types, but below is what I can tell so far.

Pro - very sturdy
Con - very heavy (circa 7kg)
Potential Con (compared to 45AII) - there is no rotating back, you have to release the back, and re-mount it for changes between landscape/portrait (on the other hand a potential stability/sturdiness advantage)
Pro - bright ground glass with fresnel

Besides from that, the regular pros/cons of a folding field camera (in comparison to an optical bench):
Pro - very quick to setup
Con - perhaps not so much movements as a view camera
Con - many movements (like tilt/shift) are not conveniently geared as for example with the Arca above, only focussing is geared ...

Having said that, it doesn't lack a feature I couldn't live without or would sincerely miss for landscape work and portraiture ...

Lens boards adapters to Linhof Technika and Toyo 4x5 are available.

Best regards,
Martin

[Ari]

Martin, thank you.

I didn't know about the lack of geared movements on the 810M, but I suppose it is heavy enough as is.

The KMV has no geared movements, except r&p focusing, and also uses a removable back for switching between portrait and landscape.

The sturdiness of the 810M is something I come across quite often, as well, so I'd be very happy if I had the chance to try one out one day.

[John Conway]

I had an older tan/bone color model that I used for a few years. The camera was used mostly for portraits of my son . I even had the reflex viewing hood, although a little on the clumsy side, was nice to have. I loved the camera , and I regret selling it . The 8X10M is a beautiful camera and built like a tank.

[Otto Seaman]

Didn't someone here knock the Toyo 8x10 because the focusing track (or some other part?) wore out from grit/sand and was uneconomic to replace?

I think it's hard to knock the KMV in terms of weight versus strength. The Toyo 8x10 I played with was much heavier.

[Neal Chaves]

The Toyo 810M is an excellent camera. I have used one for years. Most if not all will need the bellows replaced because of pin holes. I installed a Westen Bellows made of 'lifetime material" in 1997 and it is still perfect. The camera focuses from the rear which is very advatageous when making portraits of working close up. Make sure all movements except rear swing are loose when folding the camera for transport or storage to preserve allignment. I have never felt the need for a wide angle bellows and use a 150/8 Nikkor on a recessed board and a 120/8 on a flat board.

[Ari]

Thanks, Neal; I have spoken with a forum member at length about the Toyo vs the KMV, and I think the Toyo would be a very nice upgrade.
The KMV is nonetheless a great 8x10 camera in its own right.

[Cor]

The Toyo 810M is an excellent camera. I have used one for years. Most if not all will need the bellows replaced because of pin holes. I installed a Westen Bellows made of 'lifetime material" in 1997 and it is still perfect. The camera focuses from the rear which is very advatageous when making portraits of working close up. Make sure all movements except rear swing are loose when folding the camera for transport or storage to preserve allignment. I have never felt the need for a wide angle bellows and use a 150/8 Nikkor on a recessed board and a 120/8 on a flat board.

Neal,

I too have a Toyo 810M, and agree with previous posters: on the 120 lens: surely you run into trouble with a portrait oriented image: ie the bed shows up at the bottom ?

I had this problem with a WA wolly (159mm), with the 165 Angulon I am ok (but that lens is having no usable coverage for movements anyway)

Best,

Cor

[Neal Chaves]

Cor,
You can "drop" the bed by tilting the back out to its limit and locking it down. Then tilt back the front standard to its limit and lock down. Back and lens will now be aligned, but you must then raise the lens to a centered position. I always use the 120mm and the 150mm this way. I don't recall making a verticle with the 120mm. I don't think it will catch the bed, but I wll check tomorrow, and post photos.
Neal

[Cor]

Cor,
You can "drop" the bed by tilting the back out to its limit and locking it down. Then tilt back the front standard to its limit and lock down. Back and lens will now be aligned, but you must then raise the lens to a centered position. I always use the 120mm and the 150mm this way. I don't recall making a verticle with the 120mm. I don't think it will catch the bed, but I wll check tomorrow, and post photos.
Neal
Hi Neal,

thanks for the feedback, I figured it would be something like you discribe, I tried it, but found it a bit awkward that way, no doubt I have to practise a bit, anyway with the 165 Angulon I do not have to lower the bed when shooting vertical.

Best,

cor

[Neal Chaves]

I couldn't sleep at all last night, pondering this question. What if I compose a vertical of some tall pine trees (I've seen enough tall buildings to last a lifetime) with the 120 and I don't find out until I process the film that I have caught the bed instead of the foreground? So I was up early and out on the deck with the camera and both the 120 and the 150 for verification. This is what I found.

With the bed dropped and the 120, there is no danger of catching the bed on a vertical, Close, but "a miss is as good as a mile." Probably designed this way by Toyo.
9843598436

[Neal Chaves]

With the 150, and camera flat, the bed will be seen in a vertical, but not a horizontal. Not even close to seeing the bed if it is dropped. Looks like there is even room for some front fall, which might be useful in a view from above.

A question was asked in the lens forum about lens tilt with the 150 on 8X10. You won't catch the bed if it is dropped, but tilt too much and you will be out of the image circle. Better to use back tilt if exaggeration of perspective is not objectionable.
98439
9843798438

[Cor]

Thanks for the very clear demonstration, Neal !

Best,

Cor

[gliderbee]

Neal,

Did you put that strap on the camera yourself?

Regards,
Stefan

[Neal Chaves]

Yes, I installed that strap more than 20 years ago. There is a reason Toyo does not provide a strap. Quite a bit of play is present in the mechanism which holds the camera in folded position. If one were to tighten the back knobs once the camera was folded (completely unnecessary) and than start packing it around by a strap on the top, the camera could be pulled out of alignment. You don't need a strap to do this damage to an 810M. Just lock everything up when folded and then squeze the camera into a foam-lined case, back pack, etc. My camera was out of whack when I bought it from KEH, but I lined it up with levels, and as I have been careful with it, it has never come out of adjustment.

[gliderbee]

So your advice is to NOT tighten the knobs when the camera is folded ? I often carry it by just grasping the top of the back .. bad idea then ? Looks to me that's the same thing as using a strap ..

Thanks,
Stefan.


Yes, I installed that strap more than 20 years ago. There is a reason Toyo does not provide a strap. Quite a bit of play is present in the mechanism which holds the camera in folded position. If one were to tighten the back knobs once the camera was folded (completely unnecessary) and than start packing it around by a strap on the top, the camera could be pulled out of alignment. You don't need a strap to do this damage to an 810M. Just lock everything up when folded and then squeze the camera into a foam-lined case, back pack, etc. My camera was out of whack when I bought it from KEH, but I lined it up with levels, and as I have been careful with it, it has never come out of adjustment.

[Neal Chaves]

Vertical alignment of the front standard and the back is held by set screws that bear on the round shafts. These are steel set screws in the alloy castings. If you put a strain on the back or the front after the knobs are tightened down, you can cause these set screws to slip on the shafts. If you re-align, be careful not to over tighten the hex screws, as you could strip out the alloy threads. Use a little Loc-Tite Blue.

[Cor]

Hi Neal,

I move the camera to and from his home made plywood box by holding it by the chrome metal bar which is used to close the camera (it's the bar which is hidden under the bed when the camera is in use, and pulled out and tightened to the back with the screw attached to the bar).

I do not tighten any other knobs, so is it ok to carry and pull the camera in and out by this bar (I wouldn't know how to handle the camera in another way)

best,

Cor

[Neal Chaves]

Cor,
What you are doing is good practice. I moved to the Toyo from wooden field cameras that had a handle, and I missed it so I installed one. I worked in the cold a lot, and it is hard to carry the camera by the bar with gloves or mittens on. When working in the extreme cold, I wear mittens with thin glove liners underneath. I take off the mitten when I need to make fine adjustments, wearing only the glove liner, then put the mitten right back on.
Neal

[Ari]

Some great advice here, and very timely, as I have just found an 810M.

Please post any other camera functions or precautions to take in using the camera.

Thanks

[EOTS]

Hi Ari,

I would recommend using small lens boards (Technika-style or Toyo-45)
and only using the large Toyo View boards for lens that really need that.
There are official Toyo adapters available for both cases.

I have a Heliar 30cm and a Nikkor 150mm on the ToyoView board, those are really bulky ...

Best regards,
Martin

[Ari]

Hi Ari,

I would recommend using small lens boards (Technika-style or Toyo-45)
and only using the large Toyo View boards for lens that really need that.
There are official Toyo adapters available for both cases.

I have a Heliar 30cm and a Nikkor 150mm on the ToyoView board, those are really bulky ...

Best regards,
Martin

Martin, thank you.
All my lenses are on Technika boards, and I just bought a Technika adapter for the Toyo from a forum member.
The 810 I am buying does include two Toyo boards, which I'll keep for, as you said, larger and heavier lenses.

[Cor]

Congratulations with the Toyo, Ari, one of the finest and sturdiest 8*10 Field camera's around.

2 points: thoroughly check the bellows, Toyo camera's have deservedly so a bad reputation on their factory bellows

Take your time to learn how to fold the camera, basically it means loosening all knobs, if you forget for instance the knobs for raise and fall of the front panel you can crease your bellows.

Enjoy and do lots of work out to gain the strength to carry it (or use a baby stroller what I do).

Best,

Cor

[Ari]

Thank you, Cor; from the photos I received, the bellows are like new, with one or two (obligatory) creases, but they are minor.

Overall, the camera looks new.

And thank you for the advice on folding the camera, I will be very careful my first few times.

[Cor]

One more thing I forgot:

I had these on and off strange light leaks over the whole length of the film, one side, a slight raise in density, after much checking I found out that the rear frame of the bellows was ever so slightly bend, and let a incredible small amount of light in, even though the frame fits in a U shape form and all is matte black, so light does travels around the corner. Most likely the frame got slightly bed during transport to and from Camera Bellows, or it has been always that way when I bought it second hand. Anyway it's easy to check once you know it: take the bellows from the standards and lay them on a flat level surface

Have fun !

Best,

Cor
Thank you, Cor; from the photos I received, the bellows are like new, with one or two (obligatory) creases, but they are minor.

Overall, the camera looks new.

And thank you for the advice on folding the camera, I will be very careful my first few times.

[Neal Chaves]

9865498655Ari,
Don't make the same mistake as countless other buyers of used Toyos and assume that because the bellows looks good, it is light tight. Do a flash light test as soon as you get the camera and while you still have a chance for an adjustment from the seller. I've seen hundreds of tiny pinholes in Toyo bellows that looked "mint". It is an age issue, not a wear issue.

One other leak I had involved the fit of the rear bellows frame. It was tight under the clips at the bottom, but very loose under the sliding bar lock at the top. Easily resolved by placing some Velcro loop material on the frame under the locks.

[Neal Chaves]

98660986619866298663Here are some details of my DIY viewer. Simply a frame of 3/16" hobby shop aircraft plywood with a hood made from nylon covered wet suit neoprene, glued together and to the frame with neoprene contact cement. Any model maker can make the frame. Take it to a dive shop to have the hood made and glued on. I added a Velcro closure on mine (sewed and glued) so that it folds flat to go in the case or for carrying around on location. I hate dark cloths. On the Deardorf I had a similar neoprene hood that attached to the ground glass frame with Velcro. The Toyo is much nicer because it has the sliding bar lock and clips. I think that at one time Toyo did supply a monocular viewer for the 810, but I have never seen one for sale new or used.

[gliderbee]

Thank you, Cor; from the photos I received, the bellows are like new, with one or two (obligatory) creases, but they are minor.

Overall, the camera looks new.

And thank you for the advice on folding the camera, I will be very careful my first few times.

Mine had quite some little pinholes that only had an effect if the bellows were stretched, e.g. for close-ups. I closed them all with black plastidip: as good as invisible and very easy to apply.

Stefan

[Ari]

Cor, Neal, Stefan: thank you all for the great advice and help.

I expect the Toyo to arrive Monday, and thanks to you all, I'm doubly excited to get it.