How do you get an 8x10 to get a worms-eye view?

[kirkmacatangay]

Hi,

So I was out by Humber River, at waters edge, and found some interesting textures at a base of a hill. The most I can do tilt the camera down but that was not the view I wanted.

How do you get your 8x10 low enough for some floor level shots? My Manfrotto does not do the splits to get the camera very low. Any tricks that I do not know about for a stable low platform?

Kirk:confused:

[Jim Noel]

sit it on the ground or floor.

[Jon Shiu]

On some tripods you can reverse the column and mount the camera upside down under the tripod.

Jon

[Robert Oliver]

Flat metal plate with tripod head attached like I use for placing remote cameras on the ground at sporting events. Can even add spiked feet to.

[Michael E]

Some tripods have a removeable center coulumn, so you can mount the camera upside down between the tripod legs. Some tripods have a second 3/8" screw at the bottom of the column to mount the head down there. I don't know what your tripod does or doesn't.

Michael

(edit) Too slow...

[kirkmacatangay]

Jim, True but no very stable when focusing and inserting the film back. Difficulty in framing the shot as well.

Michael & Jon, I just checked and my tripod does not have screw at the bottom. I do want to see what would happen if I hang my Calumet Green Monster upside down.

Robert, The metal plate with a tripod head is interesting.

Kirk

[Peter Gomena]

For a one-time shot you might be able to get away with a big sandbag or beanbag placed on the ground.

[Sevo]

Relay lenses (like a "Snorkel") generally are not format dependent (as they go in front of the format native lens) - we certainly used them for eye view shots of architectural models on 4x5 some twenty years ago, when digital modelling still was more expensive. Digital may have shoved them out of the lists of even the highest end photo rental houses, but cine production rentals specializing in animation and special effects will have them, at a price.

[Ari]

You can dig a hole or get a tripod that can go nearly flat with the center post removed.

[Dan Fromm]

Put a front surface mirror at 90 degrees to the lens' axis in front of the lens. Mount the camera facing straight down. Doing this will let you get the lens' axis (well, it isn't really the axis but I think you'll understand what I mean) as low as you want. Getting it to ground level will require digging a hole for the mirror.

I do this with my little 2x3 Graphics. I attach the camera to a Manfrotto 244 arm attached to the bottom of my tripod's inverted center post. I have a couple of focusing rails for making fine (Ha!) adjustments. No matter how I set it up it is very slow-working but makes focusing and composing much easier than it would be with the camera on the ground. When I started trying to shoot nearly at ground level I put a 2x3 Graphic a Bogen 3028 head (sorry, don't know the corresponding Manfrotto number) on a Benbo 3 with the head's platform on the ground. You can imagine how difficult looking at the GG was.

Mirrors? Well, you can buy a front surface mirror and make a box to hold it to your lens board. Or you can buy one that will attach, possibly with step rings involved, to your lens' front threads. I took the second approach, have a couple of Spiratone Mirrotach devices. These turn up from time to time on ebay.com. Spiratone also sold a Circo-Mirrotach, similar but with an oval, not a trapezoidal, mirror. I've never handled one, might or might no do for you.

[Kimberly Anderson]

Dan's got it.

[kirkmacatangay]

Dan, Thanks for the response. Interesting idea but one that I am not likely to use. Even at 90 degrees the camera is still quite far from the ground. I do not have a bottom center post screw.

Ari, A shovel to dig me a hole. I like it but too much effort. I do have a semi-cheap tripod that does the splits but I do not trust it enough to put an 8x10 on top.

Kirk

[Dan Fromm]

Kirk, is your 8x10 a monorail? If it is, you can put the tripod mounting block at the end of the rail ...

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have a sand bag that I made from the leg of an old pair of jeans. Put the camera on the bag, compose on your belly. The sand bag keeps the camera in position.

[kirkmacatangay]

Hi Dan, I am currently using a Calumet Green Monster.

Andrew, Sand bag or the like seems to the best option right now. Maybe a few towels to help stablize the position would be the best at this point. I will have to just try it out.

Kirk

[Dan Fromm]

Kirk, thanks for the reply. So much for that idea.

For curiosity, how low is low? Interpretations vary considerably, mine goes to an extreme.

[Sevo]

If "worms eye" really means millimetres above ground, nothing short of a trench or a periscopic relay lens will do - mirrors still place you at least half the format height above ground...

[kirkmacatangay]

Dan,

I was thinking the len is at most 6" off the ground. Or basically as low as low can be but stable for foccusing and inserting the holder.

Kirk

[Dan Fromm]

If "worms eye" really means millimetres above ground, nothing short of a trench or a periscopic relay lens will do - mirrors still place you at least half the format height above ground...

I could be mistaken, but I think you are. Please explain further. Remember that the lens sees a cone of rays ...

[Dan Fromm]

Dan,

I was thinking the len is at most 6" off the ground. Or basically as low as low can be but stable for foccusing and inserting the holder.

Kirk

Hmm. Have you set your camera on a nice soft rug, put something as far in front of it as the subject would be in the field, and tried to focus and compose? If you haven't try the exercise.

If you don't have a reflex finder -- is there one for the C-1? -- I see you, in my mind's eye, prostrate and very uncomfortable.

Cheers,

Dan

[Sevo]

I could be mistaken, but I think you are. Please explain further. Remember that the lens sees a cone of rays ...

Agreed - I was assuming the (standard/base rail mounted) Sinar system mirrors. If a non-system solution is fine, and the lens may be stopped down, a comparatively tiny mirror right in front of the lens could be used, if you find a way to attach it (these seventies 45° mirror "spy lens" angle attachments might for once find a real use there).

[kirkmacatangay]

Dan,

You are thinking too far ahead of me. I just wanted to get the camera down that low. I did not even consider how I will be focusing. No reflex finder that I know of. No plans to build one either. This mental exercise does not look to be fruitful at this point. A few of the spots that I was considering in this position would not allow me to have acreage to lay down and focus. Straddling the camera and focusing upside down would get old very fast. For now, I will pass those opportunities for a shot in the 8x10 format. The metal plate may still work but i would have to consider if the design is worth hauling around.

Kirk

[DrTang]

dig a hole

[kirkmacatangay]

DrTang,

'dig a hole' -- I do not want the shot that bad. At least not yet. :rolleyes:

Kirk

[Dan Fromm]

Dan,

You are thinking too far ahead of me.

Nope, I've done the exercise. On rocky ground. That's why I came up with the mirror solution.

[Jim Noel]

It may be difficult, or uncomfortable framing, but there is no reason it should not be rock solid and steady. At least mine have always been so.

[DrTang]

DrTang,

'dig a hole' -- I do not want the shot that bad. At least not yet. :rolleyes:

Kirk

hang it upside down and dig or clear a shallow area..8" deep if it's loose rock should do

[gleaf]

A wooden plywood / MDF etc panel with three leveling screw feet and a camera attach thread at the center would do just fine.
Optical tooling folks use these type of 'instrument stands'. For scale those are 3.5 in - 8 mount hread on top.

[Alan Gales]

You can fold a Ries's legs out a full 90 degrees. Without using a tripod head you can get an 8x10 camera right above the ground.

If you want lower put a piece of cardboard, plastic, wood, etc. on the ground and put your camera on that.

[brucetaylor]

I have used the sandbag technique many times, particularly with movie cameras. If you don't fill them up too much they can create a very stable cradle. My wife makes buckwheat hull pillows, which are also very stable without the weight of sand. You can also bolt a plywood plate to the bottom of the camera and stabilize that with rocks/sandbags/whatever. I just bought a Kodak Ektanon lens with 90 degree prism assembly from an old photostat (Haloid) machine. It occurred to me that it would work well in an application like this, and the C1 is stable enough to mount it.97798

[David R Munson]

A piece of plywood with a 3/8-16" bolt through it makes a great ground-level device to which you can attach a head or just screw the camera on directly. A hi-hat with a 100mm bowl is still pretty low and would let you get away without a tripod head if you don't need much more than leveling capacity.

[Dan Fromm]

You can fold a Ries's legs out a full 90 degrees. Without using a tripod head you can get an 8x10 camera right above the ground.

Yes indeed you can, but what about the screw that holds the camera (or head) to the platform? Dig a hole?

[Alan Gales]

Yes indeed you can, but what about the screw that holds the camera (or head) to the platform? Dig a hole?

You're a sharp one Dan!. The OP mentioned that he was shooting at water's edge so just push it into the mud or dig a small hole if you have to. OK, I'll admit it. I didn't think of that one until you mentioned it! :)

By the way, I like your mirror suggestion.

[Alan Gales]

Ok, after Dan's insight I measured my Ries J100 tripod. The closest I can get the bottom of the camera to the ground is roughly 5 3/4".

[Dan Fromm]

Ok, after Dan's insight I measured my Ries J100 tripod. The closest I can get the bottom of the camera to the ground is roughly 5 3/4".

No insight needed, I just looked at my Model C.

Re the mirror suggestion, well, I'm not a masochist, don't enjoy lying face down on the ground struggling to see my camera's ground glass.

The other suggestions in this thread focus on the problem of getting the lens' axis near (not at) the ground. They ignore practical problems of implementation. Could this forum be infested with physicists? Or, perhaps, sadists.

[Lou Baleur]

How about a combination? Dig a small hole to lower the camera only. Then use a reflex viewer or a mirror to see the ground glass from above. The camera sits right on the ground.

[Dan Fromm]

How about a combination? Dig a small hole to lower the camera only. Then use a reflex viewer or a mirror to see the ground glass from above. The camera sits right on the ground.

The OP has stated he doesn't have, won't make or purchase, a reflex viewer.

I'm appalled that so many of the responses to the OP's question focus on the immediate problem -- getting the lens' optical axis close to ground level -- and ignore the problem of using a camera near ground level.

[Jim Andrada]

Problem? What problem? A lot of years ago I needed to get really low so I hung the Linhof from the reversed center column. Then I stretched out in the snow and mush and got the shot. And a case of Pneumonia as well. After I recovered I went into the darkroom and discovered that I had taken the empty holders, not the loaded ones. I still remember what the photo would have looked like.

[SergeiR]

A lot of years ago I needed to get really low so I hung the Linhof from the reversed center column.
which is how Linhof describe doing it in their literature in order to achieve larger falls and shoot lower in general, as i found out after breaking me head for a while and then deciding to "RTFM" :)

[tangyimail]

Dan,
Can you post a photo of your mirror system? I am interested. Thanks

TY

[Lou Baleur]

Even with a mirror, a hole must be dug to 1/2 the vertical dimension of the mirror in order to get the center of the mirror at ground level. Since another reflecting element in the optical path can subtract from stability, and also a camera hanging off the side like a pendulum will encourage vibration. A hole dug with the camera in the hole is the most stable configuration. It's really the most practical solution.

[Bob Salomon]

On some tripods you can reverse the column and mount the camera upside down under the tripod.

Jon

On large Linhof tripods they offered an outrigger mount (still do actually) that fit into the top of the tripod and let you drop the center column straight down from the top. These large linhof tripods accept an extension center column so you could go down until the top of the front standard touches the ground.

[joselsgil]

Here is an image of a creative photographer from 1957. I have posted this scan before, it is from a Hot Rod magazine. I can't make out what camera is being used, but it looks like an 8X10.

[Vaughn]

Here is an image of a creative photographer from 1957. I have posted this scan before, it is from a Hot Rod magazine. I can't make out what camera is being used, but it looks like an 8X10.

I have put my 8x10 on the ground like that -- though I assumed a different position to look at the GG!