Experience with Slavich paper?

[Peter Yeti]

I may be late for the party but I learned only recently that there is Slavich FB paper on the market, which I don't know yet. Two kinds are available here, Unibrom and Portraitbrom. Does anyone here have experience with this paper and would mind to share it? I've been using Ilford Galerie forever and absolutely love it. Unfortunately, it's getting more and more difficult to get it here, so, I'd love to have an alternative. Is it worth a try?

Thanks for any input.

[JW Dewdney]

no - but i would love to hear opinions too. I had the impression galerie wasn't anything like it used to be - i used to use it constantly back in 'the day' (early 80s) but was disappointed when I tried several years back... best thing i found in recent years was EMAKS...

[Peter Yeti]

I use Galerie since the early 90s and didn't observe much change. Maybe I'm not critical enough. But it's also a few years ago that I last bought a batch of it, which is running low now. Wasn't Emaks made by Fotokemika and thus is dead by now?

[JW Dewdney]

Peter - I stopped using galerie in 84 so I can't comment on what it's been like from the 90s until now - I assume what changes I saw occurred in that time period maybe... or it COULD be my imagination... but my guess is that maybe it was subject to changes much in the same way that Agfa's papers were (due to environmental regulations) etc. The EMAKS is still available to buy new. Perhaps it's just the fact that it's a graded paper rather than it's specific formulation - I prefer to to MCC greatly - graded papers tend to be LOT less muddy looking to my eye..

[JW Dewdney]

I have a friend who uses ilford warmtone for all her work and I think her prints are amazing - i'm sure a lot of it depends on your specific process etc... YMMV

[peter schrager]

Slavich papers are excellant...u need to try it for yourself and then make the judgement
peter

[Oren Grad]

Peter - I stopped using galerie in 84 so I can't comment on what it's been like from the 90s until now - I assume what changes I saw occurred in that time period maybe... or it COULD be my imagination... but my guess is that maybe it was subject to changes much in the same way that Agfa's papers were (due to environmental regulations) etc.

The original Galerie was replaced by Galerie FB around 1990. I don't know how much the formulation changed - didn't have any experience printing on the original Galerie myself.

[Bruce Barlow]

I've seen Mr. Schrager's prints on Slavich. He knows whereof he speaks.

[bob carnie]

Slavich grade 4 is fantastic for lith printing.... Where is this paper available??
I have used this paper for mural and smaller prints and really nice in Double Weight.

I would like to get my hands on a steady stock.

[bob carnie]

the Lambda digital silver paper I use is Gallerie and has incredible blacks if I say so myself.
It has a red sensitivity addition to allow it to work with the lasers but runs through the chemical just like any fibre paper, minus safelight .

[Peter Yeti]

Thank you for your input. This sounds very promising and seems worth to be tested. Which kind do you use, Unibrom or Portraitbrom? Are the grades similar to those of Ilford Galerie FB?

I found a few sources this side of the pond: Silverprint in England, Moersch in Germany, Labo Argentique in France, Foto Riegler in Austria. It seems that freestyle lists it as well.

[JW Dewdney]

the Lambda digital silver paper I use is Gallerie and has incredible blacks if I say so myself.
It has a red sensitivity addition to allow it to work with the lasers but runs through the chemical just like any fibre paper, minus safelight .

oh - i thought you had to use the ilford 'digital fb' paper on the Lamba, Bob (?) - or am I thinking of a lightjet? (if a lightjet can even do fb)

[bob carnie]

oh - i thought you had to use the ilford 'digital fb' paper on the Lamba, Bob (?) - or am I thinking of a lightjet? (if a lightjet can even do fb)

Well I have only used it on the lambda, I am sure it would work on enlarger without safelight as if I was printing colour neg on enlarger.
I have never tried it yet but now I have enough off cut rolls, small footage kicking around to make it worth trying.

Lightjet can do fibre, thats what Ilford in Mobberly are using.

[bob carnie]

I have only tried the grade 4 version, it was supplied by the client so I do not remember, but I do know it was really cold , then when toned exploded in colour.... my guess is Unibrom.
I think we went through about two rolls on the job.


Thank you for your input. This sounds very promising and seems worth to be tested. Which kind do you use, Unibrom or Portraitbrom? Are the grades similar to those of Ilford Galerie FB?

I found a few sources this side of the pond: Silverprint in England, Moersch in Germany, Labo Argentique in France, Foto Riegler in Austria. It seems that freestyle lists it as well.

[Steve Sherman]

I purchased some Slavich #4 per Bob Carnie suggestion and can attest it has terrific micro contrast. The Unibrom exhibits far more micro contrast than the Portrait version. THe Unibrom is very cool in color but does tone very nicely, again per Mr. Carnie's suggestion.

Never tried it for Lith printing but if Ilford's Warmtone (simply the finest enlarging paper currently manufactured) is not readily available from your supplier the Slavich would be my next choice of currently manufactured E papers.

Cheers, SS

[Peter Yeti]

Thanks a lot for this info. I'm a bit surprised that grade 4 is so popular with this paper. I usually enlarge on Ilford Galerie grade 2 and my negatives are optimized for this. Seems that it's well worth a try and I certainly will. I like a cool tone that I can tune a bit by the developer and toning in selenium.

One thing that I'm wondering about is why obviously only few people here use this paper. It seems to have nice quality and is not expensive, so why is this?

[bob carnie]

I use the grade 4 for lith printing, do not be mistaken, lith likes this grade and I flash down the contrast.



Thanks a lot for this info. I'm a bit surprised that grade 4 is so popular with this paper. I usually enlarge on Ilford Galerie grade 2 and my negatives are optimized for this. Seems that it's well worth a try and I certainly will. I like a cool tone that I can tune a bit by the developer and toning in selenium.

One thing that I'm wondering about is why obviously only few people here use this paper. It seems to have nice quality and is not expensive, so why is this?

[Peter Yeti]

OK, I see, thanks for the clarification. Wolfgang Moersch is into lith printing and highly recommends this paper for that use. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the lith printing process and what it does for you. That's probably another thing I should have a look at. Can I conclude that this paper is good for regular use when it's great for lith printing?

[bob carnie]

Peter
I have never use it for regular printing other than Lith. You would probably want to consider the lower grades to start with if you are not doing lith.

OK, I see, thanks for the clarification. Wolfgang Moersch is into lith printing and highly recommends this paper for that use. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the lith printing process and what it does for you. That's probably another thing I should have a look at. Can I conclude that this paper is good for regular use when it's great for lith printing?

[Peter Yeti]

Bob,

Since I want to try this paper at some point, I thought I could try lith printing as well. Which developer(s) are you using with Slavich? Would you have a recommendation for a lith developer I can mix myself from standard ingredients? In particular, I'd like to avoid any formaldehyde in the formula.

Thanks for any advice.

[ROL]

Sorry, a little late here. I've posted a couple of times both here and on APUG regarding Slavich UniBrom. Most recently: http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/120835-oriental-vc-fb-cold-2.html (#17). Here is an un–lith, "unadulterated" scan of an 8x10 proof, using grade 3 Slavich Unibrom 160:


Clearing, Banner Peak
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/albums/Ansel-Adams-Wilderness/Clearing%2C%20Banner%20Peak.jpg

[ridax]

I've just checked the Slavich website - only to be surprised they still survive publishing such poor information on their products. The main difference between the two paper types (the bromide and the chlorobromide ones) is not mentioned at all. The English version has a number of mistakes making part of the text hard to understand. And on top of that, is the advice to soup the papers in a RAPID fixer (BKF) for 15 minutes!!! Sad story. A bit of clarification is needed I guess...

Unibrom was/is the name for the very basic consumer AgBr paper made by several USSR manufacturers throughout the second half of the 20 century. I remember at least two other local types of bromide papers of considerably higher quality that had better Dmax and less shoulder on the tonal curve and some other preferable characteristics. A couple decades ago, no sane photographer would ever use Unibrom if he/she could get their hands on other papers.

Bromportrait was quite another story. Those old days, I've never heard a single word against it. Bromportrait is a chlorobromide paper, and those are somewhat in-between the pure chloride papers (like Kodak AZO) and the bromide ones. AgCl makes crystals much smaller then AgBr; that makes chloride containing emulsions slower in speed and more delicate in tone rendition and provides for higher usable Dmax due to very little shoulder on the curve. Also, the more chloride in the emulsion, the more sensitive the paper is to variations in development. Different development times may be applied to different parts of the image to bring out certain details and make changes in density with the same exposure; different developers more readily give different color tones, and so on.

There were several different BW paper manufacturers in the USSR. They all used the same names for the similar paper types (Unibrom, Photobrom, Novobrom, Bromportrait, Contabrom, Photocont, Iodocont, etc.) but the papers were not really identical. Some manufacturers were surely better then others. And the damned Slavich was IMO about the worst of them all.

Bromportrait was my first choice those days. The oldest version I've used was from the 1960s. It was already expired for a couple of decades when I opened the box somewhat about 1985 but the prints came out great, and using that old stock was a real pleasure. Not a single problem, no need for any special processing - despite the fact that the box was never stored in a cool place. It actually spent its two decades on a bookshelf in a living room. No it was not by Slavich.

In the 1990s, all those other manufacturers died out. But Slavich did not. Apparently the worst of the local paper manufacturers was actually the best in bringing the production costs down - having lots of practice in the art long before the market started shrinking.

I switched to Fortezo when the original Bromportrait was no longer available, being replaced by the Slavich Bromportrait 80 in the 1990s. The main difference of the Bromportrait 80 (and Unibrom 160) from the original versions is a ton of optical brighteners incorporated in the base. Optical brighteners mask fog thus making production way more easy. They also provide higher visual Dmax due to the whites being whiter then normal. They make the picture really vivid... but too 'plastic'/cartoonish for that old-fashioned taste of mine. And besides, optical brighteners compromise print longevity quite a bit.

To be fare to Slavich though, I have to admit that the vast majority of the world's paper manufacturers switched to the excessive use of optical brighteners long before Slavich did. Fortezo was about the last of the classic chlorobromide papers without such an artificial boost, and now it's also gone. And as for the modern Slavich products, I've tried those but gladly I don't have too much practice with them as I still have some old papers here. Unfortunately, today most of my stock that still remains is Unibrom. But at least it's not by Slavich...


P.S.: Sad to see any 'political reasons' at your link to the other forum ROL. Makes me really doubt I should continue posting any pieces of my own experience in this language... I'm really sorry but yes those were my actual feelings when I read that. Though I also feel traditional photography is going through hard times these days, and we'd better be all together now, not divided by any reasons external to our art....

[ROL]

S.: Sad to see any 'political reasons' at your link to the other forum ROL. Makes me really doubt I should continue posting any pieces of my own experience in this language... I'm really sorry but yes those were my actual feelings when I read that. Though I also feel traditional photography is going through hard times these days, and we'd better be all together now, not divided by any reasons external to our art....

Well, that was over there and this is here. I don't really have a clue why that should bother you (and neither will likely many on this forum), as I didn't say what those political reasons were. I was simply attempting to indicate that if given the choice of cold tone paper, of which there presently appears to be none, I could find other reasons, including paper quality, as well as genealogical and political bias, to support a foreign based company. You must have missed the point where I praised Slavich papers for what they are – and believe me, nobody is paying me to do so, and nobody else offered example (unless that is what really bothers you :D). My mistake was perhaps in being a bit clumsy in suggesting as briefly as possible my preference of a Czech to a Russian paper, without writing manifesto - as you appear to be prone to. I'm not a (U.S.) flag waiver, but I am half Bohemian.

[ridax]

Thank you very much ROL for your explanation. Now I see you were talking love not war. Yes I was hoping for something like that but was not sure... my fault certainly. Thanks again - and sorry for the major off-topic.

As for the cold print tones, I think the best of those can be achieved on the so-called warm tone papers - especially the chlorobromide ones - with special cold-tone developers. The 'cold tone' bromide papers are far less developer dependent, and tone variations in those are smaller and harder to produce.

My own two cents on the topic - from first-hand tests with different papers, including some Foma's - are in post #29 here (sorry that's very brief... I'm sure the topic deserves way more attention): http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/97627-no-more-slavich-paper-freestyle-3.html

[Drew Wiley]

I sure miss premium bromide papers like the original Seagull G. Guess I've gotta experiment with Ilford Galerie graded once again. I haven't used it ever since my old
Dektol pre-pyro days, before I knew a lot of tricks. Unfortunately, all the local camera shop has in inventory is 11x14, so I'd have to get something bigger from B&H
to experiment with. But maybe it's smarter to stock up on the last run of Kentmere Fineprint, which will produce a superb cold tone in amidol and GP1 - not a blue-black like Polygrade V or certain warmtone papers appropriately developed, but a clean black black. I still haven't figured out how to get the purple cast out of the
Adox Premium VC that Freestyle sells. I still have some EMaks on hand, but I've never tried Slavich.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I've been using Ilford Galerie forever and absolutely love it. Unfortunately, it's getting more and more difficult to get it here...Where in Europe are you that it's difficult to get Ilfobrom Galerie? Surely, even if (like most of the US) no local, physical stores stock it, ordering from B&H would be viable.


...Guess I've gotta experiment with Ilford Galerie graded once again...But maybe it's smarter to stock up on the last run of Kentmere Fineprint...The correct answer is: do both! Temper how much Fineprint you freeze with your experience concerning how well it keeps. In my opinion, Galerie is the best option going forward.

[Peter Yeti]

Sorry, I've been out of town for awhile and thanks for the additional input. I'm in Germany most of the time. Very few internet shops have it listed, often it's out of stock, and prices are crazy. I would order from Silverprint in London but the size I need is out of stock for quite a while now.

The reason for my post is that I'd like to have a second option BESIDES Ilford Galerie FB. Using the Slavich Portraitbrom with cold-tone developer sounds like an interesting option. Does anybody els have experience with this? Is Slavich paper really that bad compared to others?

[ridax]

Is Slavich paper really that bad compared to others?

I'm not saying Slavich paper is bad compared to other papers available today... Actually, I'm afraid it isn't :(. I'll certainly use it when I'm out of my old stock (if only I can't grab some outdated Fortezo or Bromofort somewhere). I just don't like that modern optically-brightened look in my prints... And I also don't want my prints' look in sunlight (and other types of illumination rich in UV) to be that different to the very same prints' look under incandescent bulbs (and any other light with little or no UV in the spectrum). And besides, guessing how ugly will those prints look in some 50 years when all the optical brighteners are gone does not make me happy either. Slavich puts a quite lot of optical brighteners into their paper now, probably more then most other manufactures do. But other manufactures aren't free from the sin either.

Does anybody know of any current paper without that modern 'extra-whiteness' btw?

Besides, do not be confused by the low Dmax and other such figures published on the Slavich website. That's just another of their marketing faults... While other manufactures tend to publish the most optimistic data accompanied with the usual disclaimer stating they are not obliged to deliver the product matching the published specs exactly, Slavich is still holding to the old tradition to publish the minimal figures they really guarantee. In practice, you'd most probably find the Dmax and many other parameters to be quite a lot better.

[Peter Yeti]

Thanks a lot for the clarification. I certainly will try it and figure out for myself whether or not I like the paper and the effect of the brighteners. But of course, any additional info is highly welcome.