Beginner Large Format: Ebony or Chamonix? [Archive]

gmfotografie

22-Jun-2013, 00:23

Daniel Stone

22-Jun-2013, 00:46

Symmar-S lenses are fine
no need to look further IMO, even if you're shooting color, unless you have a "need" for the latest tech. aka "splitting hairs" on most points, technically :p

I'd personally go for the Chamonix. Super light, and if you should decide to expand your lens capabilities(especially if you decide to go longer than 150mm), the Chamonix will be more versatile IMO.
I owned one briefly(a 045N-2) earlier this year, and it was a great little camera.

film holders are cheap, even in the EU from what it seems. Not as cheap as here in the USA, but if you look carefully and watch ebay, you can get lucky :)

buy(and shoot!) more film, that way your technique will get better faster, and you'll learn by making mistakes.

KEEP YOUR "BAD" SHOTS. Put sticky notes on them so you have references to how you exposed & developed it(normal, +/-, etc..) so you can reference them easily.

welcome to the LF club!

-Dan

Tim Meisburger

22-Jun-2013, 00:59

To me the Ebony seems the better deal, and a better camera for landscape, but I think you will probably want a wider lens, as the 150 is a longish normal lens on 4x5.

Regular Rod

22-Jun-2013, 01:51

hi my friends,

actually i'm photographing b&w landscapes with a hasselblad 501cm. for color i want to shoot large format 4x5 with fuji velvia 50.

i can get a used ebony rws45( near mint) with 10 film casettes and an Schneider Symmar-S 5.6/150 for 1200€.

the other posibility is to buy a new chamonix which gives me more felxibility for using larger lenses but will be more expensive.

(with my digital fullframe equipment i used to shoot with 24mm and 100-150mm lenses)

what can you suggest me? should i buy the ebony? can you suggest the schneider symmar s lens for a start?

best michaelWhat are the important criteria to you? Is it weight? Cost? Ruggedness? Ease and speed of set up? You might prefer to get a folding camera if you are back packing with your gear. The RWS 45 is a non-folding camera made for Robert White Photographic Ltd. They offer it as a low cost entry to 4x5. The price you have been offered is very good if the camera, lens and 10 film holders are indeed near mint. Can you handle the camera before buying it?

RR

dave_whatever

22-Jun-2013, 02:11

Speaking as someone with both a RSW45 and a Chamonix, the Ebony would probably be easier to learn with because you've only got front tilt and rise to worry about, the camera is an utter joy to use and setup time is virtually zero. It packs down slightly larger than the chamonix but of course you can keep the lens attached on the ebony so its about the same overall. Weight is more or less the same for both models. You can use a 210mm on the ebony with a tophat panels, but longer non-tele lenses become a pain on even longer tophats. A fuji 300mm f/8 Tele will also work on the Ebony with a slight tophat board. Where the chamonix wins is using longer lenses more easily and more movements, but that of course comes with a longer and more fiddly setup, and more to go wrong, for example if you forget to zero any of the movements which you're not using at any particular time. The stock focussing screen on the Ebony is probably better than the chamonix, depending which model chamonix you buy (for example the 045F1 doesn't come with a fresnel).

I would say if you're sure you won't want to shoot longer lenses much in the next couple of years then the Ebony is the best one to go for, its basically foolproof and a work of art in itself.

Jim Becia

22-Jun-2013, 06:25

I will agree with Dan on this one even though I own three Ebony cameras and think they are the best. My (your) concern is the lack of any versatility with that version of Ebony. With only 190 mm of bellows, you are limited in using even a 150 when doing something close up. While I think Ebonys are great, that particular model is very restricting, at least in my view.

Peter De Smidt

22-Jun-2013, 07:32

I've used the Ebony and owned a Chamonix. I would go with the Ebony. It'll be easier to use for someone just starting out.
Oops. I missed the "s" in the title. I used and RW45. I agree with Dan and Jim that the short bellows would be pretty limiting.

Kirk Gittings

22-Jun-2013, 07:45

If you can afford it buy the Ebony. Not only a good camera for beginners but seasoned professionals who want simplicity, quality and don't shoot with really long lenses-which I don't. The short bellows can be mitigated by the use of top hat lens boards and/or the use of a 120 roll film back for your long shots. In conjunction with your Hassy and a 4x5 roll film back and top hat lens boards, it is very likely the only 4x5 camera you will ever need.

Kevin Crisp

22-Jun-2013, 08:38

The Symmar S lenses comes in two types; one is multicoated and one is single coated. I'd go for the multicoated ones all other things being equal. If it doesn't say "multicoated" on the lens barrel, it isn't.

Jim Noel

22-Jun-2013, 11:49

To me the Ebony seems the better deal, and a better camera for landscape, but I think you will probably want a wider lens, as the 150 is a longish normal lens on 4x5.
150mm is not a "Longish Normal lensfor 4x5." It is actually slightly shorter than the diagonal of the film (162.5mm) thus is slightly shorter than normal. However, the 150 has been considered normal for this format since about the 1960's.

dave_whatever

22-Jun-2013, 11:55

Depending on your film holder, the diagonal of the largest exposable complete rectangle of film on 5x4" is about 154mm, give or take, so a 150mm lens is as near to bang on normal as you're going to get.

Tim Meisburger

22-Jun-2013, 19:43

Well, I find the 135mm normal, as that is what I normally use!;)

patrickjames

22-Jun-2013, 20:05

Michael, if you want to use the equivalent of what you have been using then you need to get the Chamonix. The Ebony won't cut the mustard for you for longer lenses even with a top hat.

As an aside, I don't know why people don't read the question before providing an opinion. The OP was asking which one he should get based on his usage, not yours...

Peter De Smidt

22-Jun-2013, 20:19

Well, a 24mm in 35mm is _roughly_ equivalent to a 75mm in 4x5, and a 100-150mm in 35mm is _approximately_ like a 360 to 450mm with a 4x5, but there are many caveats. In my experience, though, many people don't use as wide or as long angle of view lenses with large format that they use with smaller formats, which is not the same as saying that no one does.

A 90mm f6.8 lens would be a reasonably sized and priced starting point. If the poster feels that he regularly needs something wider, then that can be investigated later. The long end is more problematic. To avoid large shutters, a Nikon 300m or a Fuji 300c would be great choices, but they are a little more expensive than the 90mm would be.

gmfotografie

22-Jun-2013, 22:31

thank you for your suggestions.

i will go for the chamonix because of the versatility using longer lenses.
for a start i will take the 150mm first, extend with a 75mm and finally end up with 300mm which will be my longest lens on large format.
five filmholder would be enough for the start.

best michael

Alan Gales

22-Jun-2013, 23:50

I used to shoot a 25mm lens on my 35mm Contax so I bought a 75mm lens for my 6x5 Tachihara thinking that it would be similar. I found it to be too wide and closer to a 20mm on a 35mm or full frame digital camera. I ended up selling the lens and buying a 90mm which I am perfectly happy with.

I suggest that you try out a 75mm and a 90mm before you buy if that is possible.

Drew Bedo

23-Jun-2013, 06:05

Doesn't Aspect Ratio of the negative play a part in this discussion of equivilant focal lengths?

Whatever specific dimensions you choose to use, the 35mm format is more narrow than 4x5 (even more so compared to 5x7). If one were to mask or crop 45 negs to the l/W ratio of the 35mm format, I'm sure the images would look more alike . . . .but why do it/

Moving from one format to another always involves a slightly different "look", for many reasons. Aspect ratio is one significant factor.

With that said: Choosing a first camera is somewhat less important than jumping in and doing LF photography. ThereI would think that a simple pin-hole would be a great start. As is no one "Best" camera, and your first will not be your last. Same goes for tripods, camera bags and everything else. As your confidence and interest grow you will be able to make more informed choices in gear selection.

I started out with a well used Speed Graphic. Now I use both 4x5 and 8x10 vintage cameras (love the old woodies).

Ken Lee

23-Jun-2013, 06:37

Doesn't Aspect Ratio of the negative play a part in this discussion of equivilant focal lengths?

Yes. We can use the diagonal, the vertical, or the horizontal measure.

I use the horizontal measure.

Robert Langham

23-Jun-2013, 06:55

They are both pretty terrific cameras an no matter which one you buy, it just takes time and experience to shake out your equipment. You are in for a wonderful experience!

Good shooting!

97472 97473

James Morris

23-Jun-2013, 07:18

From what you've written, you're almost certain to want to shoot with a 300mm+ lens at some point, so the Chamonix sounds like the right choice.

biedron

24-Jun-2013, 09:54

The OP wrote:

for color i want to shoot large format 4x5 with fuji velvia 50.

In which case maybe the most pressing concern is not which camera, but where to get Velvia 50 sheet film :( Or if you can find a stash, which freezer to store it in.

According to an email from Fujifilm North America I received this morning:

"Please be advised that Fujichrome Velvia 50 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film have been discontinued. However, Fujichrome Velvia 100 film are currently still produced in 4x5 and 8x10 20 sheet. There are no current plans to reintroduce Fujichrome Velvia 50 in the 4x5 and 8x10 format."

Bob

dave_whatever

24-Jun-2013, 10:41

Thats funny as fuji in japan have apparently just redesigned the packaging for the velvia range.

If there's one thing we can learnt from recent events concerning Velvia, and that is to pay little attention to what regional distributers claim is being discontinued.

http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/news/reports-of-my-death-have-been-greatly-exaggerated/

biedron

24-Jun-2013, 11:51

Dave,

It was that link to the onlandscape article that prompted me to email Fuji North America and ask explicitly if sheet velvia was going to be available again. In my email to them, I even provided a link to a similar page that claimed it would be available after the packaging redesign.

So maybe it will live on only in Japan. That would seem to make little sense though.

Bob

gmfotografie

24-Jun-2013, 14:28

there was this post which makes me happy....: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?102395-Fuji-Velvia-50-4x5

is velvia now still produced or not....?!

(but we should open a new thread:
is velvia50 sheet still alive?)

Harley Goldman

24-Jun-2013, 15:13

I would absolutely get the Chamonix. It gives your far more latitude in lens selection. When I shot 35mm, I was a wide angle guy. Since moving to 4x5, I slowly moved to longer and longer lenses. Now, I use a 240mm 70% of the time, and use the 300mm and 450mm a lot. The Chamonix will handle everything from a 58mm to a 450mm, the latter with the extension board. I love mine. Why limit yourself?

gmfotografie

24-Jun-2013, 22:32

my friednds, thank you so much.

i will order the chamonix theses days.

the next question is, which lenses can you recomend me?
(i have to order the lensboard)

i don't want to have a lens just for the start. i want to have a great, a sharp lens!
maybe you can recomend me lenses for 75mm, 90mm, 150mm and 300mm.
(i will stay at 4x5 inch)

for example:

75mm?
http://www.photobörse.com/productinfo-4590-0-5_6_75mm%20Super%20Angolon%20.html

90mm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schneider-Super-Angulon-90mm-f5-6-Sinar-5x4-4x5-large-format-copal-shutter-/121130276707?pt=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item1c33ed5763

150mm?
http://www.photobörse.com/productinfo-6395-0-5_6_150mm%20Symmar%20S%20.html

best whishes from austria
michael

Steve Barber

25-Jun-2013, 01:26

The two lenses you will probably use for about 90 percent of the time would be a 90mm and a 210. Try a Rodenstock 90mm f6.8 Grandagon and a Nikon 210mm f5.6 Nikkor W. If you just want to impress everybody with your top of the line lens, the Schneider 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon XL and Rodenstock 210mm f5.6 Sironar-S. In between for the 90mm and a good match for the Rodenstock 210mm would be the Rodenstock 90mm f4.5 Grandagon-N, but it is noticeably heavier and bulkier than the 90mm f6.8 Grandagon.

I do not know about the Chamonix and the 90mm Super Angulon XL combination. If you choose that, then be sure that it will fit without any interference with the rear element of the lens with the camera and, with any of the shorter lenses, be sure the bellows is not compressed and will allow full movements when the lens is focused at infinity.

James Morris

25-Jun-2013, 01:38

Pretty much all modern LF lenses are great. I don't know of any bad ones?

For a starter 150mm, the Schneider you link to will work really well, as will similar by Rodenstock, Fuji etc.

Daniel Stone

26-Jun-2013, 08:29

the "big four" all make(or made) wonderful products.
yes, some were a little bit better in the corners, but for the majority of LF users, they're pretty much all more than acceptible IMO.

I personally lean towards Fujinon lenses, as I like the way they render colors onto transparency film. A slight bit of warmth, without going overboard.

But my experience with the other three(Schneider, Rodenstock and Nikkor's) have all been quite favorable as well.

-Dan

Otto Seaman

26-Jun-2013, 08:38

Learn how to use color negative film, it is more versatile and it will be manufactured longer than any chrome film. Transparencies are nice to look at but otherwise only offer disadvantages with no clear advantages other than dogma and tradition.

angusparker

26-Jun-2013, 23:02

Good choice on the Chamonix, I'd go with the new F1 model if you have the option to buy new otherwise get a used 45n2. The extra movement of the F1 you will appreciate as your skills improve. I have the 450mm extension plate and a Fujinon 450mm 12.5 but I find this long focal length rarely used so I would advise against buying the board/lens - as a combo it's expensive and the lens is hard to find as well. I'd consider getting a three lens set over time. Best bets for a set with similar characteristics would be:

Fujinon 125mm 5.6, 180mm 9, and 240mm 9, or

Nikkor 90mm 8, 200mm 8 and 300mm 9.

I find 90mm a touch wide but the Nikkor is relative light for this focal length with a more manageable 67mm filter thread, you could always get the Nikkor 120mm 8 as well but it's got an odd 77mm filter thread.

Would probably buy normal 180-200mm lens first, then 90-120mm and then 240-300mm all sticking to one brand. I own all of the above lenses except the Nikkor 120mm and I still can't decide which I like better Fujinon or Nikkor! This set is also quite lightweight. One other note, given the excellent fresnel / ground glass that comes standard on Chamonix, I think you can afford to use f8 / f9 lenses and pass on the heavier f5.6 alternatives - you will/can carry the three lens set that way!

gmfotografie

27-Jun-2013, 13:21

thx, i've ordered the new f1 yesterday ��
now i' will look for a good lens. thx you all for your suggestions and tipps simplifying my decision!

dave_whatever

27-Jun-2013, 13:39

Good choice on the Chamonix, I'd go with the new F1 model ....
.... given the excellent fresnel / ground glass that comes standard on Chamonix,......

Watch out, as the new F1 model doesn't come with a fresnel as standard. The stock ground glass minus the fresnel is not that bright and would be a pain with a 90/8 wide.

angusparker

27-Jun-2013, 13:41

That's great news! Good luck with you lens buying. KEH.com and this forum are generally good places to start. Best, Angus

thx, i've ordered the new f1 yesterday ��
now i' will look for a good lens. thx you all for your suggestions and tipps simplifying my decision!

gmfotografie

27-Jun-2013, 13:41

thx i've ordered with fresnel....two boards copal 0, 1 and 5 film holder :-)

That's great news! Good luck with you lens buying. KEH.com and this forum are generally good places to start. Best, Angus

yes i now keh but shipping from the us to austria is expensive ...the taxes :-( ....

angusparker

27-Jun-2013, 13:42

If the F1 doesn't come with the fresnel I'd suggest you ask Chamonix to add one for you ....

angusparker

27-Jun-2013, 13:49

rcmartins

27-Jun-2013, 14:45

I don't like the Chamonix filmholders (owned four once) but they don't have any way to denote exposed versus unexposed states - the do look pretty though. I would go and buy some new Toyo plastic holders - they are the best from a tolerance specs point of view and very easy to use in practice. Don't buy the holders second hand - since they are a big part of a good system and don't cost much it makes sense to buy new.

I would suggest you cancel
I must disagree in a most vivid way :). You can put stickers on the volet, or better, rubber pins in the holes of the volet to easily give you an indication - empty, unexposed, exposed. If you care I will show mine. I disagree because they are a beauty, never, ever, have light leaks, something that sometimes happen with the plastic ones when inserting or removing the volet, and load and unload in a very ergonomic and efficient manner. Initially I bought 3 and just two monts later another 7. Were it not the fact that I never shoot anything near 20 sheets of film in a outing, I would definitely buy more :)

gmfotografie

27-Jun-2013, 22:23

Otto Seaman

27-Jun-2013, 22:32

My Chamonix F1 came with a nice fresnel stock, I didn't ask for or add it. Maybe they sent me the UK guy's fresnel to punish the English?

I have 25 Toyo holders bought used and they have all been good, as have 99% of the dozens of Fidelity and Liscos I've had over the years. You do want to look at the photos in the listings and buy from reputable sellers but that's just common sense. Considering that B&H wants $106 for two new Toyo holders... you'd have to be daft to buy new. Buy some quitter's barely used ones for $10-$20.

Gotta bless the quitters for making bargains happen ;-p

I agree though, Toyos are the best film holders, not that it really matters all that much.

dave_whatever

28-Jun-2013, 00:06

My Chamonix F1 came with a nice fresnel stock, I didn't ask for or add it. Maybe they sent me the UK guy's fresnel to punish the English?

Maybe, although it says on their website that the fresnel is extra, and Hugo told me in advance they were shipping them without a fresnel to save weight (must be a heavy fresnel).

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/045F1.html

Made no difference to me as I've got a maxwell that fits the camera anyway.

angusparker

28-Jun-2013, 09:02

I must disagree in a most vivid way :). You can put stickers on the volet, or better, rubber pins in the holes of the volet to easily give you an indication - empty, unexposed, exposed. If you care I will show mine. I disagree because they are a beauty, never, ever, have light leaks, something that sometimes happen with the plastic ones when inserting or removing the volet, and load and unload in a very ergonomic and efficient manner. Initially I bought 3 and just two monts later another 7. Were it not the fact that I never shoot anything near 20 sheets of film in a outing, I would definitely buy more :)

Each to there own. From my perspective the positives are:

They are absolutely beautiful looking - sexiest film holder award?
They are lighter than plastic
Presumably built to Chamonix specs so should give good results re: film plane
No light leeks

Negatives:

Hard to load the film than other holders - my biggest beef actually.
Hard to unload the film - not easy to grab end of the film since the notch under the film is small and not very recessed
Hard to pull the dark slide out - not very ergonomic, not much to grab onto with the thin carbon fiber board and holes
Having to put stickers etc on the dark slide to denote exposure status - come on, these are expensive should be built in

My two cents!

angusparker

28-Jun-2013, 09:16

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rodenstock-Apo-Sironar-N-150mm-f-5-6-Lens-w-Copal-0/231006484516?_trksid=p5197.m1997&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D16%26meid%3D8688487750580237388%26pid%3D100016%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D3%26sd%3D251283386942%26

good deal?

A bit pricey ... but it's a great lens, nice and small, filter ring a bit delicate perhaps so you don't want to knock it about. I have one... My main advice is stick to one brand of lens for consistent results especially if you are going to shoot color transparencies (e.g. Velvia 50) - less of a concern for B&W. Also I would try and stick to one filter ring size - you can pretty much get 52mm filters sizes for lenses above 135mm. Then for the wider lens(es) stick with a 67mm filter ring size - that way you can use only two sizes of filters. The Nikkor lenses I suggested above are 52mm/67mm filters, the Fujinon ones are mostly 52mm and 67mm but one of them you have to buy a step up ring of 49mm to 52mm if I remember correctly. I just leave the step up ring on the lens permanently - there is no risk of vignetting for the longer lenses. I think you get more for your money from Nikkor then Rodenstock. Fujinon lenses are sometimes even more of a deal but there were less of them sold in the US so the prices can go up for the rarer lenses.

Check out this page for ideas: http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm and also this one if you want to travel light: http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lightwei.htm

henk@lf

28-Jun-2013, 11:17

I use an rsw45 for some time now, and the only thing I can say :
Highly recommended !

ashley161

30-Jun-2013, 04:09

150mm is not a "Longish Normal lensfor 4x5." It is actually slightly shorter than the diagonal of the film (162.5mm) thus is slightly shorter than normal. However, the 150 has been considered normal for this format since about the 1960's.
Hey jim great answer and i also kinda agree with you