lens for 8x10 wet plate

[robin j]

What fast lens would you suggest for an 8x10 wet plate camera to shoot half length to head/shoulders portraits ......I'm thinking the longer the lens the better, keeping a decent distance from my subject to reduce bellows extension and therefore exposure time.....as well I want something fast such as f4 - f4.5 ?

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Robin

[E. von Hoegh]

A 360/4.5 Schneider Xenar in barrel.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

"A 360/4.5 Schneider Xenar in barrel." +1
420/4.5 Rodenstock Ysar

How large is your lens board?

[goamules]

Petzvals are the classic wetplate lens!
http://www.flickr.com/groups/868027@N25/

[robin j]

Having an 8x10 made.....I can order it anywhere from 7"-9".

[fecaleagle]

Having an 8x10 made.....I can order it anywhere from 7"-9".

Christ, that should do it. The general rule for petzvals, based on my extensive research and limited, true understanding of things, is that the focal length is roughly eqivalent to the coverage at infinity. I picked up a 10" petzval that covers 8x10 at all but infinity, but the focus fall-off is significant! I bought it to use on a 5x7, and in my opinion, it is perfect for the ~8.25" image circle required. So to cover 8x10 (12.8" minimum image circle), you'd need one in the neighborhood of 14-15" to have some room to spare and a not-too-drastic focus falloff toward the edges. But hey, some people are into that stuff. The guy I bought my 10" from was using it solely for 8x10 wet-plate portraits. Petzvals in those sizes can be cost-prohibitive for some of us, but you are having an 8x10 made, so I would guess you can swing it.

Then again, you'll be managing your exposures with a hat/lens cap/darkslide/packard, so the xenar has some advantages. I tend to agree with Garrett though, you can't beat a petzval if you're going for that wet-plate collodion look.

[fecaleagle]

Thought I should mention, the faster the petzval, the bigger the barrel's going to get. Mine is 10" ~f/3.2, and I had to clip the flange to fit it on a 5.25" lens board. Garrett can give you (and me too) a better sense of what size board you'd need to handle the flange on a fast petzval for 8x10, but I would guess 7-8" would handle anything in the 14-15" range.

[goamules]

The bare minimum lensboard for a large, fast Petzval to cover 8x10 would be 6", but that might preclude using a few Extra Quick ones. A 9" board was the norm on studio cameras, but you'll seldom use the whole thing. I'd say if you are going to make your own lensboards, a 7 or 8 inch would be good. That's not a standard size, so it won't fit other cameras. That's the attraction of a 9" board, I can swap lenses to most of my other studio cameras.

A F3.8 12" or 14" Petzval would be a better match to cover 8x10, a 10" may or may not cover. Slower ones will cover more, so a 10" F5 would work.

[E. von Hoegh]

I suggested the Xenar because it's fast and available relatively cheaply in bbl.
Please, if you decide on a Petzval, use it as it was intended and leave the swirlies somewhere outside your plate. :)

[fecaleagle]

Please, if you decide on a Petzval, use it as it was intended and leave the swirlies somewhere outside your plate. :)

Amen. I am a hip, young man, but I find the way that these lenses are used today a little disturbing as well. I cross-referenced the late 19th century lens catalog that John Coffer sent me with the coverage suggestions from sellers on ebay: coverage and good representation of a subject are very different things. The 10" portrait lenses WERE recommended to cover a whole plate with a subject distance of 10-15 feet, IIRC. I find it a very comfortable FL to use for portraits on a 5x7, and it does a very good job at infinity on that format. I will definitely be looking at a 15" if I can ever move up to 8x10. That said, a Xenar is the easiest way in.

[E. von Hoegh]

Amen. I am a hip, young man, but I find the way that these lenses are used today a little disturbing as well. I cross-referenced the late 19th century lens catalog that John Coffer sent me with the coverage suggestions from sellers on ebay: coverage and good representation of a subject are very different things. The 10" portrait lenses WERE recommended to cover a whole plate with a subject distance of 10-15 feet, IIRC. I find it a very comfortable FL to use for portraits on a 5x7, and it does a very good job at infinity on that format. I will definitely be looking at a 15" if I can ever move up to 8x10. That said, a Xenar is the easiest way in.

The Xenar would make a nice portrait lens, but the Petzval when properly used is a lovely portrait lens - it's what it was designed for after all.

Too many use those damned swirlies as a "cool" gimmick, I wish they wouldn't as I find it nauseating.

[robin j]

Thanks everyone for your input.
If I go the modern route, what would a fair price be for a 360/4.5 Schneider Xenar ?

As far as petzvals go, to leave out the 'swirlies' (which I'm not really crazy about) I should be looking for at least a 14"-15" petzval for an 8x10 if my bank account allows for this ?
I should mention that I would be shooting almost entirely portraits and not shooting at infinity - does this work in my favour as far as coverage goes ?

[Paul Fitzgerald]

"I should mention that I would be shooting almost entirely portraits and not shooting at infinity - does this work in my favour as far as coverage goes ?"

Yes it will, more extension = more coverage

"If I go the modern route, what would a fair price be for a 360/4.5 Schneider Xenar ?"

a million dollar, I'll have one for sale shortly.

If you get the 9x9 lens board you can use almost any lens out there and the Packard shutter.

[goamules]

A few comments. One, far be it for me to plead "don't use a petzval for swirl...." since it's none of my business what you like. It's like telling someone, "I like Chinese food....I like Ford cars...so you should too!" I wouldn't take advice about a lens from someone who avoids that lens. Study the photos, and decide what you want.

If you look at the Flickr Petzval photo group I've posted above, you'll see how beautiful, sharp, 3D, and with wonderful bokeh Petzvals are. That's why they were synonymous with "Portrait Lens" for 70 years! Most photographers don't use them too short, or foster swirls, except for a few shots. Then they move on to using them in other ways. It's a very versatile lens.

On the OPs implied question, "will a 14-15 inch Petzval break the bank," if you are getting a custom camera made, which can cost over a thousand, maybe two thousand dollars, compared to buying an original studio camera for $200, I'd say go for the best. The LENS is what makes the photo, not the camera. If you skimp on the lens, it's like having a 1963 Corvette restored, then putting a small 4-cylinder engine in it.

[robin j]

Thank you Garrett. You are so right about the lens (for god sakes I tell this to photo buffs all the time in the digital world); I suppose wet plate is so new to me that I look towards the wet plate camera makers as a good solution.....time to put aside the money for the right petzval.......I just don't know fair prices for these lenses, hence I put my trust into people such as yourself and Eddie......

[Mark Sawyer]

Buy a cheaper functonal lens (like a Tessar) now to get started. You won't know what you want for a while, so no sense spending a lot til you do. And with a lens with a strong signature (like a Petzval), it's a good idea to have a more "normal" lens as well.

When you feel you need a Petzval (or Euryscop, or Cooke, or some other particular lens) watch ebay and put a wanted ad here on the forum. I've bought from both places, prices vary widely on both, so they're roughly comparable, but the forum is a better place to buy, as people here know their lenses, what they can do, accurately describe the condition, and want to keep their good reputations. Meanwhile, keep an eye out for something to fall in your lap unexpectedly. It happens.

If you're buying a modern "reproduction", be advised that most don't have any movements, which I regard as necessary in any lf camera, but especially so in wet plate. You'll be using the lens wide open for portraiture, meaning very shallow depth of field, and the movements will let you tilt the focal plane when needed.